Supernatural (Page 5 of 5)

Nice!!

I've enjoyed the first few since the show returned.

Can Lisa Braeden have a cameo?

I can't speak to the series finale specifically, but I've read that due to COVID-19, it became unfeasible to have all the guest-stars they wanted because they would have had to cover the cost of having every performer quarantine for two weeks for a brief cameo. But they must have been able to get some, because some special guest-stars were sighted and on call sheets. Just not all the ones you expect. It's really sad. BLINDSPOT, which had its series finale earlier this year, had a guest-star from nearly every previous episode for the last installment and there's always a joyful sense of closure to seeing familiar faces back for a series finale.

I hope they get Jody and Donna. It looks like they couldn't get Kathryn Newton.

**

I'm sure absolutely nobody cares about my WAYWARD SISTERS fan fiction which is aimed at an audience of one, so I'm going to make it a post-script. I'm trying to write three scripts, 46 pages each (to be plausible teleplays and they need to be done in time for Christmas). The conceit I've concocted is that after WAYWARD SISTERS wasn't picked up, the CW purchased two extra episodes of SUPERNATURAL for Season 14 and one extra episode for Season 15 -- but these would be episodes with the WAYWARD SISTERS cast, and I want them to slot into the existing continuity of the series like a media tie-in novel. I'm writing these for my niece who loves SUPERNATURAL, loved the idea of WAYWARD SISTERS and I'm assuming she is a bit sad that Claire and Kaia (whom she heatedly shipped) will never have an onscreen reunion. I'm writing these for her as a Christmas gift.

1 - Hunter's Rage (14.3b)
Reeling from the disaster in the Bad Place, Claire dives into hunting with reckless abandon, taking risk after risk and dangling herself as bait for any monster she can find. Avoiding Jody and Donna and her extended family, Claire soon finds herself into a trap with no backup, no rescue and no way out. This story is set before the events of Season 14, Episode 3 ("The Rage") and would fill in the gap where Claire went from not knowing Kaia too well and feeling guilty about her death to considering Kaia her "first love," as Jody puts it in "The Scar." It's a really interesting writing challenge and I have an idea for how to give Claire that journey inside a TV episode.

2 - Hunter's Reckoning (15.11b)
Claire's search for Kaia's killer hits a dead end in Yosemite, but during a stop for gas, food and water, Claire comes across a peculiar town where everyone has lost the ability to die. This story is set before the events of "Galaxy Brain" (in which Kaia came back to life) and features the return of Harper Sayles, the necromancer with the zombie boyfriend from Season 14 because I like the actress, Maddie Phillips, who was just awesome in TEENAGE BOUNTY HUNTERS which has sadly been cancelled. I don't believe SPN was able to get Maddie Phillips back to play Harper again even though her character is supposed to be hunting Jack.

3 - Hunter's Reunion (15.12b)
En route to Sioux Falls, Jody, Kaia and Claire are interrupted by a storm and take shelter in an abandoned campground with a terrible secret beneath the earth. (I don't really know what this one's about plotwise, but I there's so much interesting characterization to mine: Claire has all these romantic feelings to Kaia whereas Kaia has probably given Claire no thought in the two years Kaia spent roughing it; Claire has all these fantasies about Kaia that will be confronted with actual reality; I'm also going to have to write a lesbian sex scene for my niece to read, but for it to be plausible, it can't venture outside the limits of what the CW would be willing to air and I've also never written a sex scene before.)

I watched it off the DVR this morning.  I thought the "clip show" was well done.  I most ways, the previous episode was really the finale.  "Carry On" was definitely touching, and I think totally fine the way they ended it.  Seen many fan comments about Dean which they were unhappy about, but I mean, they won, so, what more was there to do?

The other cool thing for me, they aired exactly 327 episodes of the show, and while "Baby" was a '67 Impala I believe it's only likely to have a small block Chevy.  One of the most prominent engines GM ever sold, the 327 cubic inch!

PS: I think we can do full commentary, I mean, there's only a few of us commenting on the thread and we've probably all seen it.

So regarding Dean....

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I think the death made sense.  I wish he'd had a bit more happiness, but he needed to die a warrior's death.  If you'd flipped Sam and Dean in the finale, Dean would've been depressed.  He tried the normal life, and it wasn't what he wanted.  Some people can't die quietly at home - they need to go out fighting.  I thought it was a little odd that he died the way he did, but he won the war.  I think Dean would've been content with just about any death after defeating Chuck.

One thing I thought was interesting is the two boys.  When they pulled up to the barn, I started worrying what would happen.  The story I wrote for them was that the Winchesters would end up taking the boys in and training them to be hunters.  When Dean died, I thought Sam would.  Train the next generation of hunters.  I think that could've been a fitting ending.  Maybe even switch the deaths and have Dean be the new John. 

The odd thing about the finale was how open-ended it was regarding the universe while being fairly closed for the brothers.  I guess they could do a Sam and Dean (the son) movie, but Dean's definitively dead.  I think they left the universe open (Jack didn't destroy all the monsters) so that they could revisit the universe, but it was odd that they didn't definitively leave open any way for Jensen and Jared to both come back.  But the universe is still ready if any spin-off ever wants to happen.

I do wonder what would've been the original plan for the finale.  Because I don't think the ending felt stretched out.  It might've been Eileen in the scene where Sam dies and the scene where Sam is playing with Dean?  I never really thought that we'd seen John and Mary and Rufus in Heaven.  They needed a messenger, and while all of them would've made sense, I think Bobby made the most sense (you could make a really good case for John, but I think Bobby meant a ton to Dean).

The more I think about it, I think the ending makes a lot of sense.  Sam wanted a family and peace - Dean just wanted everyone to be safe.  Sam got to live in peace, and Dean got to rush to the big family reunion. 

One question I had coming out - did Sam stay a hunter?  Looks like Dean had the anti-possession tattoo, but I think it could've easily been just to get one like his dad's.  Or, even if they weren't hunting, Sam could've made him get the tattoo just to make sure demons stayed away from his son.

So if they ever do want to come back, Sam and Dean (the son) hunting could work.  I also assume they could bring Sam and Dean out of Heaven for one last job.  That could make some sense.  Because, yeah, all the spinoffs area dead, but if the actors get the itch, the CW would love a limited series return or a movie of some sort.

Did you read that Jensen was dissatisfied with the finale?

The previous episode was the finale for me, and yes, maybe the way they "stuck it" to Chuck was a bit hokey, but I think that was the point.  I felt it was a very A-Team kind of story resolution, which is a good thing. 

The finale was simply an epilogue.  Was it necessary?  That I'm not sure, as they'd largely resolved the series the previous episode.  However, I mean, it's the last one, and I think it was a unique take on it, because with Chuck out of the picture, you feel like their lives return to how they were perhaps meant to be.  Honestly I felt it was a very heartwarming way to end the show, and again, both actors have no issue "returning to the characters" at some point in the future.  It may have sucked for future fan fiction, but it is what it is.  Eric Kripke has said that his finale would have really been hated, telegraphing that pretty much everybody goes out in a blaze of horrific glory, ha ha.

I wound up being lambasted on the SPN Facebook page for saying that the show basically closed all the arcs.  A bunch of mainly female fans they proceeded to read me the riot act on how a dozen different characters were not resolved.  Honestly, I had to google most of them!  They appeared like ONCE on the show.  These people are nuts.  Also, who Sam's wife was really isn't important.  Like I said, it was a 30-minute epilogue for a 15-season show.

I assume that even a retired Sam would train new hunters, give advice, set up waystations and teams, collate new data on monsters, maintain a weekly email newsletter, let people know about exciting sales of wolfsbane and dead man's blood, etc..

**

I can understand the irritation that after 15 seasons of battling werewolves, vampires, poltergeists, serial killers, Satan, archangels, Leviathans, mutated angels, Robert Singer, the King of Hell, the Men of Letters, God's disgruntled sister, the FBI, God himself and dental cavities, it's frustrating for Dean to be taken out by a vampire and a nail. But to me, that just captures how death sucks whether it's some self-sacrificing explosion or a small scuffle. Death is never happy in real life, and SUPERNATURAL was quite true to life in that respect.

In addition, Dean has died 112 times: 106 freak accidents in "Mystery Spot," a car accident, dragged to hell, shot to death, becoming Death and self-induced death to talk to Death (twice). The only death that the show hadn't done at this point was something small and low-key. As for whether or not Dean had to die -- I think that it was a dramatic necessity because the show had repeatedly resurrected Dean (and Sam). But this was to be the series finale, and rather than leave fans wondering how Sam and Dean would come back for some hypothetical Season 16, they showed Dean die and in the afterlife to make it clear that this was the end.

There's also the fact that SUPERNATURAL has had a decidedly unromantic view of death, often at its own cost and to the outrage of fans, specifically with Kevin Tran and Charlie -- but I'm not sure SUPERNATURAL was wrong to kill those characters the way it did. There was a strange sense of consequence to Kevin's death. He was only ever expected to be a guest star, but Osric Chau won over the fans and the cast and crew, so they kept him on -- but the character was in a difficult position. His mother was kidnapped. His girlfriend was murdered. He couldn't protect them.

Kevin was not a fighter, and while the show could have had him training with Sam and Dean and present him as combat capable, there came a point of no return where Kevin had spent so long as a non-combatant that it was too late to overturn it. Kevin was a scholarly student hiding in the bunker, incapable of defending himself against monsters like Sam and Dean -- so his eventual death at the hands of any threat that could gain access to the bunker was inevitable.

The show refused to excuse itself or Kevin from this painful but inescapable path of cause and effect, only giving Kevin the slight comfort that in death, he could bid farewell to his mother before Chuck sent him to heaven -- except it turned out Chuck sent him to hell to keep him in circulation for future episodes of his favourite show. (Presumably, Jack sent Kevin to the rebuilt heaven afterwards.)

And with Charlie, we had a somewhat inverted version of Kevin that came to the same unfortunate conclusion. Charlie rose to the challenges of becoming a hunter: she became combat ready, she drew upon her past skills to defend herself in her new life, she proved able to disguise herself, she was fit for life as a wanderer and researcher and fighter. But the life of a hunter is constant, endless, repeated exposure to deadly situations with enemies who are stronger than any human. Hunters survive based on knowledge of monster's weaknesses, partnerships, teams, preparations -- but those can fail and in the end, Charlie was trapped in a room with a monster too strong for her to beat and she died.

This was incredibly offensive to many fans. Felicia Day was offended. The cast were offended; when Season 10 showrunner Jeremy Carver was asked to explain this at a convention, the cast and crew around Carver took a step back from the microphones; they would not defend him or side with him. Carver said that it was where the story took him and ultimately, Charlie's death was upsetting and hurtful because death is upsetting and hurtful and most hunters die horribly.

The fan protest is that Sam and Dean have repeatedly been spared death and that surely a beloved character played by a beloved actress had earned the same privileges as the straight white men who lead the show; that surely a lesbian and a female hunter and a beloved role model to young girls and LGBTQ viewers should be excused from the likely outcome of a dangerous life, and that refusing to give some of Sam and Dean's privilege to Charlie and Felicia Day proved ghastly and horrific.

And I can see that -- except the show seems to have addressed that with Season 14 - 15, noting that Sam and Dean were spared because Chuck spared them. Because they were his "favourite show." Season 15 in "The Heroes Journey" further notes that Sam and Dean have been granted many special exemptions by being the leads of Chuck's favourite show that other characters like Bobby, Garth, Kevin and Charlie don't receive. Sam and Dean have exemptions from death, credit limits, parking tickets, the common cold, car battery failures, dental decay, indigestion and food allergies.

It's also fair for fans to feel sad that many guest-stars and recurring characters never got an on camera resolution. This was an unfortunate effect of the pandemic making it impossible to bring back many guest stars for the finale. I am sad that we never saw Jack face off against Harper Sayles the necromancer again. But -- the unfortunate truth is that any show that makes it five years (never mind 15) is going to have unresolved arcs because TV is perpetually hit by actor unavailability or sudden changes in the rush to crank out 20 - 25 episodes a year. No series escapes this.

From a creative standpoint, SUPERNATURAL absolutely grasped that it needed to give its guest-stars more screentime and development, especially its female characters. Over several seasons, the show built a cast of recurring female guest stars in Jody Mills, Donna Hanscum, Alex and Claire and then built momentum to launch a spinoff in WAYWARD SISTERS, a place where they could finally offer their female players the same advantages as Sam and Dean. The spinoff wasn't picked up due to (a) Kathryn Newton's success in BLOCKERS and DETECTIVE PIKACHU making her more expensive and (b) the CW having a lot of other shows that year that wouldn't come with the Kathryn Newton pricetag. The SUPERNATURAL creators had absolutely no control over that; they saw their own flaws with women, they attempted to balance it out, but their measure was rejected by the network.

Also, SUPERNATURAL addressed the Charlie issue by bringing in an alternate universe version of Charlie which proved satisfactory. This would suggest to me that the issue was not killing off Charlie, but rather killing off Felicia Day, and since Felicia Day returned to the show, SUPERNATURAL's point with Charlie's death has a clearer validity: hunters lead dangerous lives and will likely die during a hunt, their deaths will be violent, and death is always upsetting. And ultimately, once Chuck was no longer forcing Sam and Dean to be the star of his favourite show, Dean was treated in the same way as Charlie: he lived a life of constant kill or be killed situations and he was killed. His number came up.

Could Jack have saved Dean? Of course. But Jack freed Dean (and Sam), liberating them from the endless cycle of death and resurrection and being at the center of Chuck's favourite show. To resurrect Dean again would have been to steal his freedom instead of granting him peace.

I think it's fine to dislike it. But it was a perfectly valid writing choice and there weren't that many options that hadn't been explored after 326 episodes.

I don't recall Billy giving a number of deaths.

As for "The Heroes' Journey," I genuinely don't think the authorial intent was to say that Sam and Dean were talentless and inept and only ever propped up by Chuck. It's simply that they were given the means to bypass things that Kevin, Charlie, Bobby, Rufus, John and Mary had to deal with.

Sam and Dean's sudden inability to pick a lock is often cited as an example of the brothers being incompetent without Chuck stacking the deck in their favour. But, in my view, it's actually a subtle DOCTOR WHO reference to how after many seasons of the Doctor being stalled and delayed by locked doors, the writers introduced the sonic screwdriver and spared the audience the tedium. (Any show that names a character "Amy Pond" has some WHO fans on staff.)

Chuck clearly didn't find it entertaining to watch Sam and Dean delayed by locks, so he gave them a sonic screwdriver -- lockpicking -- but once he lost interest in them, it became something they had to deal with.

Also, "Heroes Journey" has Chuck deciding that anything that can possibly go wrong for Sam and Dean will finally go wrong. No one would miraculously manifest cavities within weeks, so Chuck was now stacking the deck against them -- and any lockpick artist will be defeated by a lock at some point.

It's also a bit comforting, in some ways.

While Dean's life has been horrific, he has also enjoyed a life without worrying about bills, cavities, colds or car trouble except for a brief two week period. He may have been cursed by God, but he was also blessed in many ways.

I've already given how I would do it - which actually isn't all that different from how they did it.  I would've ended with Sam or Dean dying the same way they did, and the other raising the two boys they found as hunters.  A new John and two new Winchester boys.  I think there's a symmetry to that that I like.

I think my other alternative would've been to have Jack erase all the monsters.  End the hunt for good.  And the finale plays somewhat similar - the brothers are bored, Dean gets pie, and then Dean dies saving someone.  Maybe they starts tracking down human monsters, and they get in over their heads.  Or maybe it's just some sort of accident in a burning building or on the side of the highway.  And keep the rest the same.

I think either keeping up the family business or closing it up for good are the only better endings.  For me, at least.

Something interesting about Chuck.

In Season 11's "Don't Call Me Shurley," Chuck expressed irritation with humanity and a desire to give up and let Amara destroy it all. Chuck pointed out that the angels, despite being given their freedom, had chosen to continue pursuing the Apocalypse. Castiel had become a mutated angel of his own accord. Dean had pushed for Death to restore Sam's soul; Sam had insisted on restoring Dean from a demonic existence that ultimately led to Amara being unlocked.

Chuck declared he was done watching his children fail and that he was done -- until Metatron, an unlikely advocate for humanity, demanded that Chuck stop seeing himself as an awkward human being and as God Almighty and respect humanity's perseverance, creativity and indomitable spirit at which point Chuck decided to get involved. Chuck resurrected the dead, approached the Winchesters, brought Kevin's ghost to the bunker and sent him to heaven and won the Winchester's (hesitant) trust. Metatron would later sacrifice himself pleading for humanity to be spared.

Informant watched these episodes and declared that Chuck hadn't really been depressed and hadn't given up on humanity and was just pretending to be an indifferent God to inspire Metatron to get back on track. In terms of the actual onscreen events, this was Informant's usual attitude to God; that only Informant's view of a Christian God is permitted to be considered, worshipped or depicted in fiction -- to the point of declaring with no onscreen evidence whatsoever that Chuck was play acting in his exasperated frustration with Sam, Dean and Castiel.

Except... as of "Moriah" in Season 14, it turned out that Informant was absolutely right about one thing -- Chuck was indeed playacting in Season 11. "Moriah" asserts that Chuck has been deliberately forcing Sam and Dean to the center of every apocalyptic crisis because SUPERNATURAL is his "favourite show" -- and given that Chuck would not have wanted his favourite show to end with Amara destroying all reality in Season 11 (or end at all), that means Chuck's indifference to Sam and Dean in Season 11 was indeed feigned.

However, Season 15 asserts that Amara really was a threat to the world and Chuck and exists independently of him. Season 15 also has Chuck, when left to his own devices, utterly sincere in his view of himself as a writer, seeking out former fangirl Becky for inspiration and encouragement in his writing. So how much of Chuck's behaviour in Season 11 was sincere, how much was counterfeit, and why did Chuck lie or pretend to be uncaring that his favourite show could end with Season 11?

This is a question that may or may not have an answer. After Season 5, SUPERNATURAL was generally written one season at a time. In addition, Chuck being the final villain of the series was not intended; in fact, Chuck's true identity was an area where even Eric Kripke himself was decidedly noncommital. He didn't tell Rob Benedict until late into Season 5 that Chuck was God, meaning Benedict played Chuck's terror of angels and awkwardness at fan conventions as absolutely genuine. Chuck's absence from Seasons 6- 11 outside a brief cameo in Season 10's "Fan Fiction" maintained the vague uncertainty.

And in Season 11, Chuck was unquestionably intended to be a force for good by the writers under showrunner Andrew Dabb; the original plan was for Chuck to be killed off after "Don't Call Me Shurley," upping the stakes even more with the boys losing their most powerful ally -- except the CW intervened on Chuck's behalf, declaring that killing off the character of God was courting entirely too much religious and metaphysical controversy for their taste.

The decision to make Chuck a villain tracks with various characters questioning God's motives from Seasons 1 - 13 -- except that having Chuck potentially malevolent was never a serious plan. It was simply an obvious and worthwhile avenue of drama when writing for a largely offscreen character who wasn't around to defend or justify his actions. It's only with Season 13 that SUPERNATURAL began actively laying the groundwork for presenting Chuck as a villain, first by showing a parallel world where he'd abandoned humanity to an angelic apocalypse, and then in Season 14's tenth episode, "Nihilism."

There is a thematic inevitability to God being the final enemy for the Winchester brothers. But retroactively, what was Chuck doing in Season 11? Humanity was genuinely under threat as was Chuck himself; did he decide that, if he had to insert himself into the story, he would wait until the most dramatic moment and risk his favourite show being obliterated? Was that why he pretended to be disenchanted with SUPERNATURAL? Declaring Seasons 6 - 11 to be "all reruns" when the truth was he'd been fervently watching every episode the entire time?

And in his gentleness with the Winchesters -- was that sincere? Or was he playing the role he thought would work best for his story? The role of a cautiously distant but loving father who had, for better or worse, felt he had to stop being a "helicopter parent"?

It's also most interesting: Chuck wins the Winchester's trust by sending Kevin's spirit to heaven. But Season 15 reveals that Chuck sent Kevin to hell. Why? From a behind the scenes standpoint, Season 15 wanted a familiar face to explain the situation and Osiric Chau was available to reprise his role. But from an in-universe perspective, why did Chuck say he was going to give Kevin an "upgrade" to heaven but instead send him to hell?

It's possible that there simply isn't an answer outside of the writers having written Chuck season by season and having had one intention in Season 11 but chosen to alter their plans after that and that's the only explanation we'll ever have.

I think, although the CW wouldn't permit Chuck's death in Season 11, they couldn't force the issue in Season 15. What could the CW do to SUPERNATURAL? Cancel it?

God is a difficult character to write. One of the best renditions of the character, JOAN OF ARCADIA, was cancelled in Season 2 and that's always been a shame.

In terms of SUPERNATURAL, I think the show has largely done a decent job, but due to the show being extended to three times its original lifespan, Chuck's characterization and reveals and overall arc are not entirely airtight.

If the intention from Season 4's "The Monster at the End of this Book" had been for Chuck to be eventually revealed as God, certain scenes in "Monster" would not have been present. Chuck is shown alone and experiencing psychic visions of future episodes and seeks to warn Sam and Dean only to be intimidated by the angel Zachariah who informs the agonized Chuck that even if he killed himself, the angels would simply resurrect him.

This doesn't actually track with later episodes where Chuck is decidedly not omniscient with regards to future events. He predicted and planned for Dean to execute Jack with the Equalizer gun and was taken by surprise. And his supposed omniscience didn't allow him to predict Jack siphoning his power; in fact, Jack is a massive blindspot even in his omniscience for present and past events. SUPERNATURAL's prophets are also less precognitive than their title would suggest; they predict inevitable events but not outcomes, much in the same way a mechanic predicts that you'll need an oil change eventually.

Had Chuck been planned all along to be revealed as God, "The Monster at the End of this Book" would have left it vague how Chuck receives his 'visions' (because he doesn't receive any) and rather than have Zachariah frighten Chuck, perhaps Chuck would have fallen asleep and Zachariah would read his next manuscript malevolently. Alternatively, a future Chuck appearance could have revealed that Chuck suppressed his true identity as a 'sleeper' personality not to be reawakened until after "Swan Song."

And had it really been planned all along that Chuck is a sadistic voyeur, I think "Swan Song" would have altered Chuck's monologue slightly, saying that "endings are hard," but then intoning that some endings aren't endings at all, just one door closing while another one opens as we go from Dean eating dinner with Ben and Lisa to Sam somehow restored and watching at a distance -- hinting that Chuck is determined to maneuver events to keep Sam and Dean hunting monsters for even longer.

"Don't Call Me Shurley" would also have needed a slight adjustment: rather than have Chuck indifferent to humanity's impending doom at Amara's hands but ultimately return as a loving father who took a step back, the episode would have needed to present Chuck as a viewer. With "Moriah"'s revelation coming in the future, "Don't Call Me Shurley" could have had Chuck declare that he didn't want his favourite show to end, but it looked like it was ending and he was simply going to keep his distance, survive Amara's onslaught, and then start a new TV show/reality and try again. Metatron would chastise Chuck for his indifference and then declare that if Chuck truly believed in his story and creations, he would get involved in the story even if it might mean Chuck might not exist afterwards to tell a new story should Amara win.

Chuck would respond to Dean saying Chuck abandoned humanity by saying, "I know you think I'm some all powerful deity to be worshipped, but I'm not. I'm just a dad who had to take a beat and let my boys make their own choices, find their own way and fight their own fights -- but I'm here for you now with this fight."

Dean might have protested, "A father's there for his kids! He inspires them! He helps light their way even if he can't carry them, but you just left us in the dark!" And perhaps Chuck would say he'd try to make that right and then at the end of Season 11, he'd declare, "You're right, Dean. I did leave you alone. A parent shouldn't do that. Amara and I want to fix that now," and that would have Mary Winchester return.

But then "Moriah" could reveal that Chuck is actually not the passive viewer he claimed to be. He is the showrunner. And anyone who inflicts this much grief on his children so that he can have more episodes of his "favourite show" is the villain.

There is a degree of wiggle room in that what we see onscreen as Chuck is a facade; the face and charisma and warmth of Rob Benedict is a shell inhabited by a much more complex personality who wields Benedict's affability and emotional accessibility for his own purposes and with Season 15's Chuck using the Benedict skin as a subtly toxic and indirectly cruel blade against those who trusted in Rob's gentle screen presence.

And the writers certainly mined past decisions well and did their best to earn it and play fair with it and did their best not to blatantly contradict the past except in areas that were always open to suspicion of onscreen events. But Seasons 1 - 12 were certainly not building to a grand showdown against Chuck; Rob Benedict was not playing Chuck as God pretending to be normal in Season 4 - 5, nor did he later play Chuck in Season 11 as Chuck as a sadist masquerading as an exasperated father who came back to save his kids.

Ultimately, Chuck's turn to villainy is a retcon, albeit an inevitable (if unexpected) retcon.