Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I've actually never had bad food there.  They also have endless pizza on Tuesdays (?) which is pretty good. 

Most of them also have a bar area where you can sit back and complain why Batman killed all those people big_smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Two things about this week's Flash.

1. Seems like Flash wasted a pretty cool character from the comics.  https://www.inverse.com/article/14895-h … -have-been

2. AGAIN, they waste an opportunity to work with Team Arrow.  I know they call Felicity about the dwarfstar material, but Barry has zero powers, and they don't make any mention of asking Oliver for backup.  I know Oliver just lost Laurel, but it would've been the perfect opportunity to call Oliver and the perfect excuse for him to not show up.  Not only would Ollie be able to help protect Central City with no Flash and aid in the rescue, but Barry would also need training to fight as a "normal" person if he's really gonna be the Flash without his Flash powers.

I know I should just let Flash be Flash and not worry about the Arrowverse, but the fact that Oliver is out there.  And those teams not being in contact, when it puts people in danger to not be in contact, is just irresponsible and takes me out of the story.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I agree about wasting Griffin. That is a shame.

I'm not sure where the shows are in relation to each other right now. It's no spoiler that Barry has his speed on the day of Laurel's funeral. So is The Flash currently taking place when Laurel is alive? Or is it taking place in Arrow's future?

Either way, Rip Hunter obviously doesn't return his team to the time they left and now Sara's sister is dead. After all they just did to save their younger selves and their loved ones... Way to go, Rip.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, about last night's Arrow episode, I have a question.

The character that Madison McLaughlin plays has been spoken of as this big deal by the producers. There was this whole mystery surrounding her and the producers said that no show had ever done anything like this before.

Having seen her on the show, I have no idea what they were talking about. What was so unheard of? I'm confused.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I'm not sure where the shows are in relation to each other right now. It's no spoiler that Barry has his speed on the day of Laurel's funeral. So is The Flash currently taking place when Laurel is alive? Or is it taking place in Arrow's future?

That's a really good question.  Did the Supergirl episode take place in that brief part where Barry asks "how long was I gone?" the week before?  That's the time he wore that device he was wearing in the Supergirl episode. 

I always go on the assumption that Flash and Arrow are always at the exact same time they are.  Occasionally, they might be happening at the same time each week, but I assume Laurel died a couple/few weeks ago on Flash.  If Laurel isn't dead on Flash, then it's even more irresponsible not to call Oliver.

I haven't watched last night's Arrow yet so I can't comment on whatever you wrote there smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Question: is it time for Grant Gustin to put on a little bit of muscle? He is playing a superhero whose body heals at a rapid rate. That means that Barry should put on muscle pretty easily. Obviously, he shouldn't be as bulky as Oliver, but shouldn't he have some muscle? He looks very skinny/scrawny at times.


Question 2: how funny would it be if next season's Arrow flashbacks revolved around Laurel and something she experienced while Oliver was missing?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

So, about last night's Arrow episode, I have a question.

The character that Madison McLaughlin plays has been spoken of as this big deal by the producers. There was this whole mystery surrounding her and the producers said that no show had ever done anything like this before.

Having seen her on the show, I have no idea what they were talking about. What was so unheard of? I'm confused.

I'd have to read the exact quote to understand - the mystery was probably just so they didn't know she was playing a fake Black Canary to preserve the Laurel death.

But something no show has ever done before?  I can't even imagine what that would be.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

And after watching Arrow, I have no idea when it takes place during the Flash.  It's definitely not concurrent.  I'm guessing it happened before Barry lost his speed.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Here is one article. I think I  saw others that were similar, but they all get jumbled after a while.

http://tvline.com/2016/04/27/arrow-seas … ck-canary/

My theory about The Flash is that it takes place at the same time, and it is just another example of why the flash forward story was a bad idea. When you do that, you have to know exactly how it all lines up (like with Lost) or else it doesn't work. This week, we saw those scenes play out in context, but they still didn't feel like they fit. Felicity's emotional state didn't fit. Conversations felt wrong. And obviously, Barry had his speed.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My theory is that the ARROW producers messed up. They filmed the graveyard scenes in when filming the premiere having no knowledge that (a) Barry would lose his speed (b) Oliver would be enduring a betrayal on the team (c) Oliver was dealing with his engagement being called off or (d) who the hell was actually dead.

As a result, when this episode came, they reused the premiere footage and script pages despite the fact that their flash forwards no longer fit the present situation. The simplest solution would have been to reshoot or re-edit Grant Gustin's appearance so that he's seen to walk off camera without indicating whether or not he super-sped away -- there'd still be a continuity error in the premiere, but it at least wouldn't be a reminder.

The flash forwards very much don't fit with the actual context that we're given -- a serious problem resulting from flash forwards done without any idea of what that context will be. The flash forwards have Oliver and Felicity shattered by whatever happened -- vengeful, angry and broken. But what we saw this week was that Diggle was the only one in that state; if anything, Laurel's death has made Oliver and Felicity clear and focused on Laurel's legacy and determined not to sink to the level of their enemies. The flash forwards had Felicity and Oliver vowing bloodsoaked revenge; but the actual present-day episode is completely at odds with that; Laurel's death has made them recommit to the Black Canary's legacy of justice, not vengeance. These are two completely opposing reactions and they don't fit together at all.

As loath as I am towards retcons to repair sloppiness, it would have been best to refilm the flash-forwards so that Oliver and Felicity declaring Damien must die is simply a pragmatic wish to prevent more loss rather than lashing out due to Laurel's death. And Laurel's death is really the team's fault. They had the source of Damien's power RECONSTRUCTED and RESIDING IN AN INSECURE LOCATION KNOWN TO THEIR ENEMIES OH MY GOD HOW DUMB IS THAT?!!?!?!?!?!?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Here is one article. I think I  saw others that were similar, but they all get jumbled after a while.

http://tvline.com/2016/04/27/arrow-seas … ck-canary/

Hmmm.  Well the only thing I can think of is that we still don't know enough about the character.  How was she able to use Laurel's device when it was coded to Laurel's vocal cords?  I was thinking it'd be some sort of clone at first.  Was that ever answered?

And I agree with both of you - the writers messed up and then boxed themselves into a corner.  And I guess they sided with continuity over consistency.  Which is disappointing - I want to believe that these guys have a plan, and this works against that.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So I wanted to make a new post for this because it's something that has been bothering me for the last couple of days.  One of the cool things that DC is doing vs. Marvel in respect to TV vs. Movies is the idea of a multiverse.  Agents of Shield and Avengers takes place in the same universe - on the same Earth.  So while Coulson and May are punching Hydra members, Tony Stark could be across town eating a club sandwich. 

In DC, they just said that it all takes place separately.  Clearly the CW stuff crosses over, but this year confirmed that Supergirl is a different universe.  The film universe is its own thing, and Supergirl confirmed that by saying that Barry Allen didn't exist in that universe (when he exists in BvS).

Here's the thing.  Barry Allen exists in three of the four universes we know exist.  In two of them, he looks like Grant Gustin, but in one of them he looks like Ezra Miller.  I know it's fun to have Gustin and company play alternate versions of themselves, but what if they'd decided to play it totally different and have everyone look different on every world?  I've talked about this in sliders conversations, but human conception is the ultimate spin of alternate world roulette wheel.  If a multiverse is real, there's a great chance that someone exists with my name, but there's a very remote chance the he looks exactly like me.  Parents pick names before the birth all the time, but so many variables could affect how someone looks.

Now maybe Earth-2 is just very close to the Arrowverse.  We know the Supergirlverse is a lot different.  And that the movieverse is even different.  I just wonder if the show missed a chance to really explain the whole "Barry is different in the movies than he is on TV" thing.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't think the DC cinematic universe is considered to be on the same multidimensional axis (as Smarter-Quinn might put it) as SUPERGIRL and the CW shows. I don't think Barry's tachyon accelerator could take him to the Snyder films' universe -- at least not in terms of the storytelling logic set up so far. When we saw flashes of other dimensions, we saw Melissa Benoist's SUPERGIRL and we saw the 90s FLASH TV series in which Barry Allen looks like John Wesley Shipp -- but that makes TV sense in that Barry in the 90s show was older and would look like the CW Flash's father -- who is also played by John Wesley Shipp. Also, we've met Tina McGee in the CW universe, who was also a character on the 90s FLASH show and also played by the same actress, Amanda Pays. The Trickster, played by Mark Hamill in the 90s show, is again played by the same actor in the CW show.

The CW series is set in a parallel version of the 90s universe in which Barry was born at a later date in time for some undisclosed reason. Either this is a parallel universe where Henry and Nora Allen conceived Barry at a later point in their lives, or the cross temporal battles between Eobard Thawne and Barry Allen altered the 90s FLASH timeline into the CW FLASH timeline. This was done partially in tribute to the 90s show (which the FLASH showrunners really like) and partially due to their casting choices; I wouldn't say they conceived the show as an alternate timeline for the previous show, but it's what they ended up making. The only discontinuity is that Iris West's one episode of the previous FLASH show had her played by Paula Marshall who obviously isn't an older or younger version of Candice Patton.

It's a bit like Temporal Flux's idea for rebooting SLIDERS where the original characters discover sliding at a later date in life. And it's a bit like Matt Hutaff's idea for rebooting SLIDERS -- where a cosmic cataclysm altered reality in a way that delayed the inciting incident of the series.

Alternatively -- the Ezra Miller version of the Flash had a different mother or father and it, like Robert Floyd's Mallory, actually a brother of the earlier version of the character but with the same name.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

All very interesting ideas. I think the official DC/Warner Bros stance is that the TV shows and movies are part of the same multiverse. They will probably never come together (though that would be an EPIC move on the studio's part) but they like to wink at the thought of a Crisis event somewhere down the line.


I think that the idea of many actors playing one character's doubles would be interesting, but it might be impractical on screen. We look at Grant and see Barry. If you have ten actors all playing a character with the same name, it just becomes different characters turning their head when someone calls that name


Another element of the flash forward that didn't work was the decision to keep the target of Oliver's hatred a mystery. We all thought it was Damien, but the writers didn't commit to that because they wanted options. The scene meant absolutely nothing, because not one word had purpose. It is really frustrating.

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215 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-04-29 14:39:12)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I think that the idea of many actors playing one character's doubles would be interesting, but it might be impractical on screen. We look at Grant and see Barry. If you have ten actors all playing a character with the same name, it just becomes different characters turning their head when someone calls that name.

Oh, absolutely.  And, again, half the fun of parallel universes on TV (be it Sliders, Flash, Fringe, etc) is having different versions of characters played by the same actor.  Seeing a meek and geeky Grant Gustin is fun because we know Barry as being fun and confident.  Same with the other actors.  There's less of a point to having Caitlin be Killer Frost if it's just another actress named Caitlin Snow playing her.

And if ireactions is right about the Snyderverse and the Arrowverse being in different multiverses, then it makes that whole point moot and the Arrowverse would function like Sliders where doubles are identical for whatever reason.

I just picture dialogue like this happening.

BARRY (weary from a fight with Zoom) - Who the Hell was that?

HARRISON WELLS (played by Robert Floyd) - That was Zoom.

CISCO - Whoa.  Who are you, pal?  How did you get passed our security?

HARRISON - I designed it.  I'm Harrison Wells.

BARRY - That's impossible.

HARRISON - I'm Harrison Wells from a parallel Earth.  The same Earth that Zoom is from.

CISCO - But you look nothing like Harrison Wells.

HARRISON - I'm from an entirely parallel Earth based on an infinite number of parallel choices.  You think I'd look exactly like your Harrison Wells?

CISCO (embarrassed and sad) - Yeah.  Kinda.  I guess.

HARRISON - You know how many sperm -

CAITLIN (cutting HARRISON off) - Alright. We're all smart enough to know how that works.  Let's just move on.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think there is some cool "choice vs. destiny" commentary in the idea that we are fated to exist, but everything that follows is based on our choices. That, yes, every version of Barry Allen is the same person, genetically speaking, but could be entirely different based on experience and choice.

But there is still the oddball world where he doesn't exist (Supergirl's world) or where some other person got his name and life (like the alternate version of Smallville where Jonathan and Martha adopted a human baby and named him Clark).

Maybe the Ezra Miller Barry Allen is from a world where Barry's mother became pregnant with twins, only one did not survive to birth. Grant's Barry would have existed there, but he didn't survive.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I had an exchange for SLIDERS REBORN that I could never find a place to use.

ARTURO: "Ms. Welles! Contact Mr. Calhoun, see if he's familiar with this individual."
WADE: "Which Gomez Calhoun? The TV addicted one or the overparented one?"
ARTURO: "The overparented one. The adopted one left the city to flee his mother again."

I never found a place where the sliders needed to deal with motels, so it never came up.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Is it weird that Legends of Tomorrow opted for an all-CGI (weird looking) giant Ray Palmer as opposed to just using perspective to make him look giant?  It was a cool idea - I just thought his "growing" scene looked really weird, and they could've achieved the same look without resorting to CGI.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Maybe, but the robot that he was fighting was all CG, and couldn't be done quite the same way with a real person in a costume (I really liked the fact that we could see inside it).

The fight didn't look too bad to me. Obviously CG, but really no worse than most movies these days. If they'd had more time, maybe they could have made the movement look more real and heavy.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Maybe, but the robot that he was fighting was all CG, and couldn't be done quite the same way with a real person in a costume (I really liked the fact that we could see inside it).

The fight didn't look too bad to me. Obviously CG, but really no worse than most movies these days. If they'd had more time, maybe they could have made the movement look more real and heavy.

I think the fight itself was fine - I didn't want a Godzilla type fight.  I'm just talking about the "growing" scene.  In the fight, you usually couldn't see Ray's face.  In the growing scene, his face was front and center, and it looked like one of those movies like Polar Express.  I was watching on a smaller non-HD TV, and it still looked horrible.  I was just wondering why they decided to use CG there.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, that part was weird. For a second, I thought that his growing head was going to pop through the helmet or something smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Some light being shed on why Supergirl hadn't been renewed yet:

https://www.thewrap.com/supergirl-renew … exclusive/

CBS is paying 3 million *per episode* just for the license fee to have the show?!  That's before they pay a dime toward actually making the show.  Yikes.   In today's terms, you could probably make two episodes of Sliders just off that license fee.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Interesting.  I'd like to see the show moved to the CW, but I also worry about how that would affect the show and its budget.  I also wonder what would happen if the move happened - would Kara stay in her own universe, or would she somehow be brought into Earth-1?  Because I imagine there'd be more crossovers, but Barry is the only one who can actually cross over (literally) to her show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That is a lot of money, for something that really, really isn't worth it. A CW move would be incredibly messy. With Barry, Constantine and Vibe, amongst others, I think a crossover would be easy enough. And plot-wise, cutting the Supergirl budget could be a good thing (get rid of Hank, the DEO, and Jimmy. Calista may not be interested in being on the CW too). Hell, having Kara and a couple of her friends get thrown onto Earth-1 could be the perfect setup. She would even be on a world where Superman doesn't exist.

But I don't know that the move is realistic. The CW would have to want another superhero show. But do they? Most of their shows from this year have been renewed. Where would Supergirl even air?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, having cost-assessed BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN as basically letting WB break even, the same perspective applied to SUPERGIRL yields an even worse result. SUPERGIRL's ratings don't justify a $3 million per episode licensing fee. WB either needs to reduce the fee (as they did for CHUCK) to offset the lower revenue in advertising or the show needs a lower budget -- and I don't know if it's even possible. Berlanti has said outright that SUPERGIRL can't be done on a CW budget; the show uses lavish wire rig effects and detailed location filming and intricate fight scenes that require just as much practical work as well as CG. I don't see where costs could be cut; the show is already struggling to render Supergirl. There's a reason why Clark rarely flew or had extensive superfights on SMALLVILLE.

Creatively, I think SUPERGIRL tried to cast too wide a net. As a family show, the content was fine, but the contradictory approach to Kara and her world (she's an adolescent adult who's a glorified intern as a highly placed espionage officer) resulted in a version of Supergirl who wasn't one or the other or much of anything. The result was a character and a show that was internally opposed to each facet of itself and the final product was confusing despite the accessible nature of the stories. I'd like to see a second season, but I really could not blame CBS if they simply couldn't afford it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Deadline has put up a more in-depth article on Supergirl's renewal issues:

http://deadline.com/2016/05/supergirl-s … 201750208/

They were expecting a California tax credit, and the credit was denied.   As a result, they produced in California for zero financial benefit when they could have been in Vancouver getting a tax credit there.  That's where the talk of moving the show to Vancouver has come from.

If Supergirl survives through a move to Vancouver, I'm betting on a significant retooling that will probably shed some cast.  There would also likely be some cast or recurring additions because you only get that Canadian tax credit if you use a certain percentage of Canadian actors in your production (not necessarily main cast).

The question is whether they will pull a Sliders season two and try to ignore or gloss over the season one cliffhanger so they can just dump Supergirl and a couple of her cast into the Arrowverse.  Kicking Supergirl out of her universe with no way home would be the quickest and cleanest way to explain all the missing cast (especially the likely event that Calista Flockhart would not be interested in going to Vancouver - she's too big of a character to ignore unless you did a "stranded away from home" approach for Kara).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, my question would be whether or not they'd still set the show in National City.  National City is clearly Los Angeles which is clearly not Vancouver.

If its me, I don't think it's a huge deal to get rid of some people.  If they send Kara off to the Arrowverse or another city, I think the show could do some good.  I don't really know who the show *needs* to get rid of, but a smaller, more intimate cast could probably do the show some good.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The thing that annoys me is that there are plenty of other incentives to get around the country. It doesn't need to be LA or Vancouver anymore. I would love to see some new scenery. But that would make it harder to do crossovers.

I wonder if the Flash crossover was done to get ratings, or to establish a multiverse for this type of situation

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, FRINGE seemed to transition from New York City to Vancouver reasonably well. Certainly, the show will *look* a little different, but modern colour correction and lighting advances by leaps and bounds with every day; in this day and age, Season 3 of SLIDERS could have looked more like Vancouver.  But personally, I too, would like to see SUPERGIRL moved to wherever Informant does his extra work and then he could be our inside man on the show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'd love if Supergirl filmed in Dallas.  The only regret about my trip to Vancouver last December was that I *COMPLETELY FORGOT* that they filmed all these shows there.  I could've watched Flash film about six blocks from my hotel on the night I had nothing planned.  I'd absolutely go watch filming of a show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Unfortunately, Texas has cut their incentives program. We have fewer shows now, but every once in a while, they really go out of their way to woo a show.

As much fun as it would be to work on it, I doubt they'd pick Dallas. Still, there are a lot of cities that would look and feel unique, and we always see the same three cities used on TV. It gets old.

Wherever they move, they should embrace it. If they try to pretend that everything is the same for Kara, it will be more awkward.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wait, I just realized something....how are people supposed to binge watch the Arrowverse?  Honestly.  Netflix has Arrow and Flash, and I assume it will have Legends of Tomorrow once next season is up.

But it has to be watched in the order it aired - individually - or entire parts aren't going to make sense.  Or, just as bad, things are going to be spoiled.  And I don't just mean the crossover specials where the plot of Flash is resolved on Arrow.  But there are clear spoilers for Flash and Arrow on Legends of Tomorrow.  If you don't watch the three shows one episode at a time in the order they aired, I really don't think the shows will make their intended amount of sense.

And I don't think anyone would think to do that.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

This is why I stopped reading comic books. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

With comic books -- well, I was recently reading WITCHBLADE, THE DARKNESS and its assorted crossover mini-serieses which include FIRST BORN and ARTIFACTS as well as its spin-offs, ANGELUS and the ongoing ARTIFACTS. I would read WITCHBLADE until the ads or the letters page informed me that there was a crossover. Then I would switch to reading THE DARKNESS and read until I was synced up with WITCHBLADE. Then I'd read the crossovers, then move back to reading WITCHBLADE until I hit the next crossover at which point I'd double back and continue with THE DARKNESS until arriving at the crossover again. Sometimes, I didn't read things in the right order but would only realize halfway in and I would start over again at the crossover point and get it right this time.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well the problem with the Arrowverse is that it isn't synced up.  You'd need to watch the first two seasons of Arrow, then start alternating between Arrow and Flash.  Then halfway through season 4 of Arrow and season 2 of Flash, you'd need to start working Legends of Tomorrow in.  Because, again, you'd get spoilers for each of the shows if you don't do it that way.

And I don't know if there's a great roadmap to do that except to just look up original airdates.  And I don't know anyone who'd be interested in doing that.

It's easily done when you're watching in real time, and there's not so many connections that they can't be viewed individually.  But if I was Greg Berlanti, I might have Netflix offer an "Arrowverse" binge where you watch in the correct timeline order.

Of course, even watching by airdate wouldn't necessarily work as we've seen that Arrow and Flash aren't even synced up now.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't know what the filming schedule was like, compared to Arrow's. Does anyone know if Savage's comment about Laurel was supposed to reference her death, or was he just randomly threatening family members again?

It is weird to me that nobody on The Flash has reacted to her death. Obviously, they will reference it at some point, but it is still weird. A part of their extended team died. When Buffy died, Willow showed up on Angel to tell people.

If Caitlin was being held hostage, Barry was powerless, Zoom was on the loose and the city was vulnerable, it would have been the perfect time to drop that bomb. One more thing to add to the list, driving Barry or even Cisco to lose it for a minute. But of course, Barry being powerless would kill that continuity. Man, what a mess.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

1. I did think the reference to Laurel was supposed to be about her death.  I thought I read that it'd be referenced on LoT, but I don't think that was it. 

2. I think Flash is behind, but again, there needs to be more communication between the teams.  I don't think there's any reason, especially if Flash is *behind* Arrow, for them not to have called Team Arrow to help while Barry is powerless.  I know they want to handle it, but it's horribly irresponsible to not at least call.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was thinking the same thing about Diggle, not calling Barry or any of the other people they know, when Andy was hunting them. I mean, his baby was in danger!

Maybe I will assume that he tried, bit it wasn't an option.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I know they can't have help every week, but they should at least be talking about it.  I mean even name-dropping Roy as an option is something they should be doing.

It's just weird when Barry is running around with no powers and Team Arrow is going on vacation the same week.  I know they aren't synced but it's still weird.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm sorta tired of the openings to the Berlanti shows.  Do we really need to be reminded who the main character(s) is/are in all these shows?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It is part of the comic books. The thing with TV is, it takes up valuable minutes that could be better spent watching Felicity cry about her relationship with Oliver... On second thought, let's keep the openings. smile

I'm seeing more and more articles about the decline of Arrow. I wonder if the writers will actually pay attention to this and reevaluate their work, or if they will continue to exist in their own little bubble, where they cling onto one group of internet fanatics and go out of their way to write to that one specific group.

If they don't make things better, next year is a natural ending point for the series. The end of the flashbacks.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Or they just start doing flash forward every episode! I mean, they flashed forward twice this season and it worked out awesome!

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's official. Supergirl is headed to the CW next year. Don't ask me where they will have time on the schedule. Maybe they will go half a season and then swap with Legends?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I'm sure CW will cancel something.  They could pair it with Flash or pair it with Legends. 

It almost certainly means Calista Flockhart is gone.  In fact, most of the cast seems sorta "LA" and I don't know if if they'll make the move either.  Or if the cast will be able to afford to move them.

Like we've been saying, a cast pruning and a soft reboot might not be the worst thing in the world.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Given the Vancouver move, I'm betting this will be basically a new Supergirl series.  They won't be transporting many (if any) existing sets; not all of the actors will transition; may not even keep some of the writers and producers depending on if they were LA residents who don't want to move.

It will be interesting to see how they handle it, but I don't see them keeping it separate from the Arrowverse any longer; and the easiest fix for the entire thing would be to strand Kara in the Arrowverse away from her friends, family and life.  Could actually be an interesting turn to give new life and direction to the series if they handle it right.

One interesting way to handle it would be Rip Hunter finding Supergirl floating unconscious in the time stream.  They could actually use her on Legends first and then make her second season basically a spin off of Legends.  Supergirl season two could then explore how she ended up floating out there.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm sure they'll be able to get most of the cast for guest appearances if they need to (Calista basically did the show as a favor anyway) but yeah, they should just throw Kara into the Arrow universe, which will only help the show. Having her exist in a world with Clark but without showing Clark just didn't work.

They will probably want to keep as many as possible, but I don't think that Calista will go for good. Chyler has a young family, so she is out. Mehcad... I don't know. Jeremy is a New York actor anyway, right? So he might go. David, I don't know. But even of he leaves, Martian Manhunter could go. I just don't think that two alien superheroes are needed on the show.

So, they could just make her a stranded alien from another world again, or they could send her to the future, to work with the Legion.

The writers could remain the same, since they all work from LA anyway. I always thought that writers should live closer to their shows, so they know the area that they're writing for. But that will probably never happen.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I would prefer to see SUPERGIRL continue as it has, albeit with fine-tuning the series a bit so that its contradictory elements aren't so contradictory. The massive budget cut that will result from shifting to the CW network? I'd handle that by having at least one-third of the season be Supergirl-light episodes in the way Superman was usually a cameo role on LOIS AND CLARK. Nothing wrong with focusing on Kara Danvers instead of Kara Zor-El for a few weeks at a time.

As for the problem of the DEO and CATCO being two separate and contradictory entities -- I'd merge the two where the DEO starts using CATCO as a cover for its operations and none of the CATCO employees notice that their workplace has been unknowingly re-purposed into an information center for spies. I'd shift Winn into working at the DEO full-time and put Jimmy in a CATCO outpost in the city as a crime reporter, and have him supporting Kara in the Supergirl-lite stories while Winn and Alex feature heavily in the Supergirl-centric adventures. This would also allow for hiring the the supporting actors for 13 episodes a year instead of the full 22 the way SMALLVILLE would handle cast.

If Mehcad Brooks has to leave, send him back to Metropolis and have him return occasionally as a guest-star. If Callista Flockhart can't stay on full time, I'd like her to be running her empire from afar and to be a constant voiceover/cell phone presence -- maybe she's just globe-trotting but literally phoning in her work. If Jeremy Jordan doesn't stay, have him hired by the DEO on a secret mission. If Chyler Leigh can't be retained, have her searching for Dean Cain offscreen. If David Harewood doesn't make the jump to LA... well, he's the god-damn Martian Manhunter; he can have a different face.

But yeah, I guess you could have Supergirl fall into the ARROWverse as well.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The problem with Kara just falling into the Arrowverse is the fact that Barry already did that, and they got him back in the course of an episode.  Now, oddly enough, they could go the Sliders route where Kara is transported but can't find her way home.  So she stays in the Arrowverse until they can find a way to send her back to *her* Earth.

One thing they could do is have Barry go get her for help and then not be able to bring her back.  It could be a background story on Flash, allowing for Barry and Kara to have crossovers (since they're great together).

But she'd definitely want to go home, and just stranding her on a parallel universe isn't the best way to start a show.  I mean, I guess Harry and Jessie are doing it, but at least they have each other.  Now I guess it could be Kara and someone else from her show so she's not too upset about it, but it'd still be odd.

249 (edited by Informant 2016-05-13 08:33:16)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Shocking twist on Legends, and for Wentworth Miller. Spoilers below.
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So, Snart sacrificed himself for the team. But the way he did it left the door open for his return. It is now being reported that while Miller will not be a regular on Legends next year, he has signed on as a regular across all of the DC/Berlanti shows. So he will be on Legends, The Flash and maybe even Arrow and Supergirl.

They say this is the first time that a contract like this has happened. I wonder how his name will appear in the credits.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Probably use something like they did with John Rhys-Davies on Sliders and Michael Shanks on Stargate; there will be some kind of minor adjustment to make the name stand out such as "and featuring Wentworth Miller as Captain Cold".  It's really not as important with the Berlanti shows, though - there are no opening credits.

As for Legends, I still think we're going to get a kind of reset button next week.  The characters on the Waverider will probably become a paradox that exist outside of time or something.  As a result, their original selves before the time trip will still exist in present day as though nothing happened, but the Waverider crew will go on as characters with no home to go back to because there's a version of them already filling that space.  It would help explain why they stay stuck with Rip instead of going back home once Savage is dead.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's really interesting about Snart.  I wasn't expecting that (if anything, I would think Ray would die).  At the same time, I think it's pretty cool that he's going to be able to appear in any show.  With the Arrowverse being four shows now, I think an arrangement like that with several characters could be beneficial.  I know he's not interested but someone like Colton Haynes (Roy/Arsenal) would fit for something like that.  So when Barry loses his speed, Arsenal could step in and help out.  When Team Arrow needs him, he could help out.  And I'm sure there's a way to get him on LoT and/or Supergirl in a similar fashion.

I also think that arrangement would work well with Felicity and even someone like Cisco.  Felicity already has connections with Flash (Barry) and Legends (Ray), and she could help out any of the teams on any particular week.  Same with Cisco, who's delivered tactical gear to many of the players across the board.

Obviously Oliver and Thea are Arrow, Barry and Iris are Flash, Rip is Legends, and Kara is Supergirl.  But, honestly, pretty much every other character could be fluid on any of the shows.  And Hell, if season five is truly the end for Arrow, some sort of deal for Amell could certainly be reached if he wants to stay on board.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Agreed. Especially about Felicity. She is awkwardly placed in episodes to keep her active, and then on other shows, we end up wondering why they don't call Felicity.

Cisco is pretty firmly planted on The Flash, but we know that he is constantly working with the Arrow team off screen. So yeah. I agree.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I mean there's people who are probably more suited for one show than another.  But I just think it'd be really cool for the flow of the universe if most of the regulars had flexible contracts.  I'm certainly not talking about crossovers every week, but they could do so much with the universe if most of the characters are able to float from show to show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Laurel would have been good for that. Black Canary never should have been a sidekick who gets killed a year into the job. She should have left to pursue her own mission, and appeared when needed.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, I have a story idea.

Rather than start by throwing Kara into the Arrow universe, what if they start the season with a crossover event in which both Barry and Kara (and possibly with some Legends involved) travel to the future of their own universes... Only to discover that both universes share one future? How this happens can be a season long arc, leading toward a massive Crisis-like event wherein the entire multiverse is threatened. The heroes manage to save it, but not before their two worlds are merged.

Or, they could put Kara on Earth 2. The retro vibe would work well with a character like her. Crossovers would be easy, since the Flash goes to Earth 2 all the time.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I mean they could do the Crisis on Infinite Earths either way and end with the merging of all the universes.  So Kara would have a season "on her own" (with visits from whoever) before joining the Arrowverse in season 3.

I'm pretty fascinated to see what they do with it.  Do they keep her separate?  Merge her somehow?  Or just bring her into the fold.  A lot of interesting ideas and a lot of ways they could take it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

This week's Flash was good and all, and I like Black Siren, but I think they wasted the opportunity there. For a while now, they've been talking about how the team would be emotionally impacted by the appearance of Black Siren. But the moment fell short because A. They'd never even acknowledged the death of Laurel. and B. Aside from their initial shock, they didn't seem to care much.

Barry saying "It's Laurel Lance" instead of "It's Laurel" didn't jive with Caitlin saying "We didn't just know her. We loved her."

She's a cool villain, but there was an emotional note missing from her appearance.

The odd thing was the question of whether or not they should tell Sara about her being there. Has Sara returned already?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I haven't watched Flash yet (probably will tonight or tomorrow), but I'm still not convinced that Laurel has died yet in the Flash timeline.  I mean Barry *just* got his speed back.  And he's got enough in his life to worry about.  Now I know this week has a huge metahuman brawl, so maybe *that's* why he misses the funeral?

I feel like they're purposely avoiding crossover language because they know they messed up.

In other news, Stephen Amell was doing TMNT interviews and said he'd be surprised if there wasn't an Arrow/Flash/Legends/Supergirl crossover.  What's pretty cool about DC is that they're going to be able to do their own Justice League with a female as the most powerful character.  Which is basically what Marvel wants to do with Captain Marvel - but DCTV will beat them to the punch by a couple years.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's the weird thing. They knew that Laurel was dead. But apparently it happened before Barry lost his powers, because Caitlin knew. It felt weird that the emotion of that was so muffled.

You'd think that there would be a moment during all of this heightened stress and drama when that news would hit them hard. But it didnt. And even seeing Laurel's face on someone else didn't particularly feel like that big of a deal.

It might not have seemed so bad if they hadn't made it sound bigger than it was.


I also didn't get Laurel's comment about doubles being mirror images. That makes no sense in terms of a vast multiverse. Barry, Iris and Joe weren't mirror images.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Something odd from the Flash - so Laurel is going to take down a high rise, and Barry can't go because he needs to race around the city to protect the rest of the world from the pulse.  That makes sense.  But they had time to dress up Cisco and Caitlin as Reverb and Killer Frost?  That had to have taken way longer than it would've taken for Barry to race out to take her out.

Also, it makes sense for Caitlin/Cisco to be evil metahumans on Earth 2 because they still get powers.  It makes less sense for Laurel, who doesn't have metahuman powers.  I guess Reverb could've given her the canary cry, but it makes less sense that Earth 2 Laurel would've followed the same path as Earth 1 Laurel.  Black Siren should've been Sara, right?

And since Cisco made Laurel's device, shouldn't he have been able to cancel it out?  And why didn't he remove it while Laurel was unconscious (she has it in her cell)? 

And why doesn't Caitlin have powers?

Final and - it seems like Laurel did die.  I guess it happened before Barry lost his speed?  And I guess they mourned on their own?  It's bizarre that there has been such little conversation between teams.  I know Oliver has his own stuff going on, but this is a war on American soil.  No Army.  No Argus.  No Team Arrow.  I know Barry is crazy confident, but wouldn't other forces show up regardless of what Flash wants?

I'm in a critical mood, I guess.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Black Siren was a metahuman. Laurel may have been too, if she happened to be in Central City during the explosion. And there may not be a Sara on Earth 2. Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit instead?

It doesn't seem like everyone who can become a metahuman does. Barry wasn't a meta-human on Earth 2, for example.

It would have been better played if Cisco had these dead bird flashes for a few episodes, leading him to finally figure out what it all meant and call Star City to warn Laurel... only to hear that she is already dead. He could have saved her, if he'd figured it out faster. Vibe's first real superhero loss.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I think Black Siren was a metahuman. Laurel may have been too, if she happened to be in Central City during the explosion. And there may not be a Sara on Earth 2. Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit instead?

Laurel was still wearing something around her neck.  I figured that was the device.  I already deleted the episode so I can't go back and look.

But if she was a metahuman, wouldn't "canary cry" as her metahuman power be crazy coincidental?  I mean, that's only her "power" on Earth-1 do to a series of events that are seemingly random (Sara being called "Yellow Bird" due to her blonde hair in the League).  Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit, ended up with the League, got the same nickname, and came back with the canary cry device.  Then ended up in Central City, got hit with the dark matter, and the device merged with her body?  It's possible.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but DC is changing its company logo again:

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/upload-30977.jpg

It's going to integrated across all media, so expect to see that monstrosity at the end of the DC shows next season.

I still miss the DC bullet from 1976 to 2005.  Here's a look at logos from DC history:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dc-logo-history.jpg

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It as bad as some logos, but it seems more like a concept than a finished logo.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I always enjoyed Marvel editor in chief Joe Quesada declaring that DC might as well call themselves AOL Comics as that would at least mean something. That logo is simply two letters in a circle. Personally, I think that DC might be better off using the individual emblem for each hero (Green Arrow's arrowhead, the Flash's lightning bolt, etc.) and just put DC COMICS next to it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't get the AOL Comics line. Maybe I'm just tired.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

Personally, I think that DC might be better off using the individual emblem for each hero (Green Arrow's arrowhead, the Flash's lightning bolt, etc.) and just put DC COMICS next to it.

That's a cool idea.  I don't know if they still do it, but I liked how Marvel used to (maybe still does) personalize their opening logo in the movies for whoever the movie was for (so you'd see Spider-Man comics flipping before Spider-Man movies).  This could be something similar.

I don't like that logo at all.  It seems like a huge step back.  I actually liked the one they had.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, I watched the LoT finale.  Pretty solid.  I liked that the beginning had them adjusting back to life, and I like that Rip sorta helped Sara from trying to go back and save Laurel.  And it was pretty cool to take advantage of the size of the team by killing Savage three different times.  And, yes, we got the hard reset and a new quest with a smaller cast.

What I think is bothersome about all three shows is the lack of acknowledgement of what's going on in the other three shows.

- In Arrow, Damien Darhk just set off a nuclear bomb in an American city, and he's going to try and launch more.
- In Flash, an army of metahumans attacked Central City, killing at least a couple police officers. 
- In Legends, the Earth was almost destroyed by Vandal Savage.

Now, I know they can't have crossovers every week, but wouldn't Team Flash be interested in helping prevent a nuclear blast?  Wouldn't Team Arrow be willing to lend a hand when there's a literal war in the streets?  And Lance tells Sara that her work with Rip is more important when there might not be a world when Darhk is done with it (or, conversely, if Rip doesn't think it's an issue, then everything works out fine in Arrow).

When the struggle is more intimate (Oliver having to take down Ra's or Barry taking down Thawne), then things can be contained.  But even then, Barry and Oliver helped each other.  But there's world-altering stuff going on, and I think that's a problem.  I've mentioned it several times that this season of all three shows are doing an odd job of using this shared universe.  Hopefully this new style of contract will help with that, especially if they expand it to a lot of the regular casts.

Because, honestly, Flash should be helping with what's going on in Star City.  I know he's got Zoom, but they had time for a nice family dinner (that, yes, got disrupted by Zoom).  I know Barry has a life, but a freakin' nuclear bomb went off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I don't get the AOL Comics line. Maybe I'm just tired.

Quesada made the comment back when DC was part of the massive juggernaut know as Time Warner AOL.  I think he picked out AOL because it was letters just like DC; but ultimately he was making a poke at DC being corporate comics with stories made by committee.  Ironic given that Marvel would later be absorbed by Disney.

As for the LoT finale, I wasn't really satisfied.  It's hard for me to put into words, but it feels like it was a story someone was making up as they went along - kind of like Jon Lovitz marrying Morgan Fairchild.  Yeah; that's the ticket.



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At least Hourman brings a lot of potential with him.  Rex's story intertwines with the android Hourman from the far future; the Worlogog map; his ancestry in Amazo; the tachyon hourglass; the Justice Legion of the 853rd century; the John Fox Flash of the 27th century; and Solaris - the star that was turned into a sentient computer.  Of course, they seem focused on the Justice Society, so I'm not sure how far they'll delve into Hourman's life.

One thing I wondered about, though.  I thought Flash's glimpse at the future at the end of season one was looking forward to a Legends appearance when the giant robot foot smashes through the warehouse roof.  I wonder where that will pop up now (if I'm even remembering it right).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I enjoyed LoT much in the same way I enjoyed the better episodes of SMALLVILLE and also AGE OF ULTRON and CIVIL WAR -- it wasn't deep, but it was engaging and fun superhero escapist fantasy. As for why it wasn't particularly satisfying -- I suspect it's simply because LoT lacked the strong character work and philosophical depth that elevates a series from functional to exceptional. Most of the characters are in the same place they were at the start of the series.

Mick Rory remains the gruff and not entirely trustworthy teammate despite having spent centuries as Chronos. Leonard Snart remained self-serving without being evil and his sacrifice was hardly unexpected. Ray Palmer remains earnest and brilliant while being utterly incompetent. Professor Stein remains high minded but often arrogant. Jax remains rough but deviously clever. Rip Hunter remains heroic but troubled and manipulative. Kendra remains well-meaning and unsure of her power. Carter Hall remains arrogant and loyal. Sara remains a charismatic former assassin.

A lot of things have happened to them and they've done some things that are a stretch for their characters, but their dialogue and the performances don't really reflect any of it. It's not exactly BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER where Spike went from being a murderous sadist to a hero. Admittedly, all that takes time, but LoT had a lot of significant stuff happen (Chronos, Ray and Kendra's lengthy layover) with little to no real impact. Ray and Mick mention how they were settled down/training with Time Masters, but their dialogue and behaviour are no different from before these events. When characters are the same at the end as they were at the beginning, it feels like their adventures were just filling time.

It reminds me a bit of SMALLVILLE at its worst where Clark caused his mother's miscarriage and became a petty supervillain in Metropolis who did henchman work for a crime boss and lived a life of absurd luxury during which he threatened both Chloe and Lana only for the following week to have him milking cows and working on the student newspaper and exchanging longing looks with Lana like none of it ever happened.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That is a fair comparison. Like Smallville, it is fun but not necessarily good. Fun is good enough though, sometimes.

The problem that I had with the finale is that so much of it made no sense. Killing Savage in three times at the same time makes no sense. Killing him in two time periods before Kendra or the man who was Carter were born means that they shouldn't be born (right?) And then Hawkman doesn't return to his own time. Is there a Hawkgirl there? Or is Kendra the last? And how did she happen to find the WWII helmet that Rip owns and recognize it as that one specific helmet?

Time travel shows always have logistical issues, but it seems like they went out of their way to make no sense, and just blamed it on the time travel.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

And how did she happen to find the WWII helmet that Rip owns and recognize it as that one specific helmet?

It was clearly meant to be some kind of reference to Sgt. Rock, but they didn't even attempt to make the reference worth anything (or even clear).

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/5/54/Sgt._Rock_Vol_1_325.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100928001324

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ah... yeah, that reference didn't land at all. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Ah... yeah, that reference didn't land at all. smile

I just found this article where it was even promoted like a big deal, and it was nothing.   At least have somebody scream Rock or something.

http://sciencefiction.com/2016/02/03/le … k-that-is/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It would make some sense if they intended to follow up later, I guess. Like if the character were to play a larger role next season, eventually leading him to that meeting with Kendra. But as it stands, it meant nothing.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I mean I guess it was an Easter Egg.

My problem with it was....how did Rip exactly plan on being a Time Master?  How can he "protect" the timeline without the Oculus?  Isn't that the reason why the Time Masters stopped in the first place?  I wasn't clear if all of them died or not, but it's implied that they either all died or just quit because the Oculus was destroyed.

But that makes sense - without the Oculus, they can't detect changes in time, right?  Something would change and they'd have no idea.  I know Star Trek's Temporal Division does something similar (and based on the ending, they might not even be doing that), but I just had no idea how they were going to do that.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wow....well that happened.

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Did Barry just destroy the Arrowverse as we know it?  Does whatever happen on the Arrow tomorrow night matter if it's going to, essentially, be re-written?  It's an interesting move - definitely going to set up some "Flashpoint" stuff.  But Flashpoint affected everyone - will this affect Arrow/Legends/Supergirl?

The Jay twist was cool but not all that unexpected.  It'll also be interesting if we get anymore Harrison Wells - he's definitely one of the better characters on the show.  I'm also a little surprised we didn't get any "speed" stuff out of Wally or Jessie.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

The interesting thing is that Kara, Harry and Jessie should be safe from the effects of this change, since they are on different Earths. Would the Legends be outside of that zone too? Maybe Snart at least.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

It'd be limited but there could be tons of ripples.  For example, there are people that Henry Allen could've saved that wouldn't have been saved in the original Arrowverse timeline.  In fact, would Barry even be the Flash?  If he never had to prove his father was innocent, he might not have gone into forensic science, and he wouldn't have been in the lab that night.  Joe and Iris would be different people, and their relationship with Barry would be different.

If Barry isn't the Flash, Team Arrow could be different.  Barry saved everyone from Ra's last season, for example.

Logistically, there should be huge changes.  We'll see what they actually choose to go with.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't expect this to last very long, but it would have to have some element that carries over into the rest of the season, right? Like Barry closing the vortex thing brought Zoom into his life.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The question I keep having is "how much would Berlanti be willing to let this affect his whole universe?"  Because, you're right - Kara is protected, and I don't know if Legends would be affected (although they might be the ones who have to deal with the repercussions now that I think about it).  But I imagine they're going to want to have a scene in the Flash premiere next year where you get some version of Dark Oliver as part of some sort of Flashpoint parallel (Oliver being the replacement for Batman). 

But if this is going to go beyond the premiere, would they be willing to do an episode or two of a distorted future across all the shows of the Arrowverse.  Could we get a more brutal Oliver for a couple of episodes, explained away by what Barry did (somehow)?  Could fixing the timeline be a plotline on Legends?  Would this somehow be how Kara gets integrated into the Arrowverse?

It's a bold move.  But I hope they've thought it through better than they've thought through other plots this year.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wait. I have a question.

How did the Caitlin hologram speak? It was the one limitation that made it obvious to people that the Flash hologram was not the real Flash. So, did they ever explain how that problem was solved?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My guess is that they'll have Flash in its own timeline to start the season, with the other Arrowverse (and Supergirl) shows unaffected. Maybe that's what the crossover event will handle, reintegrating Flash with the other timeline, and maybe even brining Supergirl into the Arrowverse as well.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I guess Barry could've technically splintered away from Earth-1 when he changed time.  He could end up in, say, Earth-5 (Arrowverse, Earth-2, Jay's Earth-3, and Kara's world).

I did read there there's a lot of secrecy about Arrow's finale.  Is there a chance it ends with Barry changing time and everything getting reset?  Would CW do that when there are clearly people who don't watch all shows?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Wait. I have a question.

How did the Caitlin hologram speak? It was the one limitation that made it obvious to people that the Flash hologram was not the real Flash. So, did they ever explain how that problem was solved?

Was it the speaking or the fact that he couldn't touch anything?  Barry doesn't usually speak when he's doing stuff, does he?  For the normal people on the street?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought it was his lack of conversation, but I could be remembering it wrong.


It would be awesome if Arrow got reset to the end of season 2. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was reading that this could be the way they bring Tom Cavanaugh back to play the "original" Harrison Wells.  If Barry defeated Thawne, there's a chance that Thawne could've chosen to take over for someone else.  Maybe Martin Stein? 

They could hypothetically bring Teddy Sears to play a good guy version of Hunter Zolomon who became Flash instead of Barry (if saving his mom makes him no longer be the Flash). 

Honestly, I'd hate if big portions of the universe got reset.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Informant wrote:

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

It'd be limited but there could be tons of ripples.

If I remember correctly, it was stated in season one that Barry still became Flash in the original timeline where his mother lived; Thawne just manipulated things to make the Star Labs accident happen sooner.  But, that doesn't mean that in the original timeline Caitlyn and Cisco would have ended up working at a Star Labs (Thawne hired them).  Also, what about Eddie?  He had no reason to kill himself if Thawne never became Wells.  This could also mean Cold would still be alive having never went with Rip because he wasn't Cold yet (Rip and the others possibly being protected because they were in the time stream or at Vanishing Point when the changes occurred).

All in all, I'm looking forward to what they do with it.  They have an opportunity to bring back the feel and excitement of season one which is something I felt was missing in season two.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

They could hypothetically bring Teddy Sears to play a good guy version of Hunter Zolomon who became Flash instead of Barry (if saving his mom makes him no longer be the Flash).

Hunter started out as a good guy in the comics; he was a detective with the police department if I remember right. He became Zoom because his wife was killed and Flash refused to go back in time and save her.  Hunter decided to use the cosmic treadmill to do it himself, but it blew up on him since he wasn't a speedster; the tachyon discharge then made him "fast" (actually he just slowed down time around him like Turtle).

Zoom's m.o. was that he believed heroes became better through tragedy, so he was always trying to kill Wally's loved ones to "help" him.   They kind of gave a shade of that idea at the end of season two on CW.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next year, but I hope they don't throw away two years of character development with Cisco and Caitlin, and I'm not sure that we need yet another version of Wells. They have to tread very lightly with this, or it could blow up in their faces.

It's true that Barry would have become the Flash eventually anyway. I wonder if that will factor in at all.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

If I remember correctly, it was stated in season one that Barry still became Flash in the original timeline where his mother lived; Thawne just manipulated things to make the Star Labs accident happen sooner.

Yeah, the fact that the Arrowverse is *already* an alternate timeline makes things so much more confusing.  You guys know I love shared universes, and the idea that they could disrupt four shows with this one movie is pretty enticing to me, but I just don't feel like they'll have to freedom to really do an Arrowverse event like that.  Have a darker version of Oliver - have drastically different characters across all the shows.  Make Barry's decision really resonate.

The problem is that they've already made Barry a much darker character this season, and I don't know if this was the right way to go.  I didn't love the Zoom storyline because it was too much like the Thawne storyline.  And I think the Flash needs to be more fun than it was this season.  And I think burdening Barry again is just a bad idea.

I think it would've been better if he'd somehow ended up in the Flashpoint universe at the end of season two (maybe beating Zoom sent him there).  And then he could spend a couple episodes in a darker universe where he'd see the consequences of embracing his darkness and saving his mother.  And, honestly, maybe that's what Earth 2 should've been this season.

The main problem is that they had that great episode where Barry entered the Speed Force and accepted that his mother loved him.  Then his dad died.  Then he undid everything by saving his mother.  It was a ton of mixed signals that did away with some good development.  Now Barry is literally back and square one.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, what did you guys think of the Arrow finale?

I kinda felt like we'd seen it before. It seems like every time there is a big disaster, there's the rioting crowd scene and the big speech. There didn't seem to be a real solution to the problems at hand, so they had to BS their way out of it with "clap if you believe" logic and wonky hacking skills. Damien started out as being a better villain than Ra's, but I don't think they knew what to do with him at the end of the day. And of course, I spent a large chunk of the episode thinking "If only they had smashed the totem... oh wait, they did! None of this should be happening!"

And Malcolm was back in the Arrowcave (aka "The Lair with Worse Security than STAR Labs").

And then the kicker. Literally every character on the show took off, EXCEPT Felicity, who a lot of fan are tired of and actually want her to leave. It's like the writers are Olicity shippers and they're just f-ing with us now.

I wish Thea would just get rid of Malcolm once and for all.

I do like that Felicity stayed fired (Smoak building on Legends be damned). She should probably be brought up on charges for what she did while running that place.

I chuckled while Oliver took the oath of office, swearing to uphold the laws of the city.


All in all, I actually think that they left the show in a good place to be rebuilt in the fall. I doubt that Barry's actions will do anything to Arrow, though it would be cool (maybe a Flashpoint Paradox-type movie event to kick off the new season before returning to normal). But it will be nice to cut back the team a little bit. Felicity should also leave, of course. Or Curtis. We really don't need both.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought it was okay.  It was a little poetic that the season started with Oliver and Felicity having abandoned Oliver's quest, and it ends with everyone else abandoning it.  I think it makes some sense, and it's cool that Oliver is going to be able to fight his fight in the light.  It's probably going to be a little difficult to be the Green Arrow when he's mayor, though.  This'll be the first time he's actually had a job since like season 2, right?

I was a little surprised at how it ended.  I was sorta thinking they might have an epilogue where everything resets and is darker because of what Barry did.  For people who watch Flash, they'd know.  For people who only watch Arrow, it'd be an interesting twist to be explained next year.

If they aren't going to have ripples through the rest of the Arrowverse, I think the Flash twist is sorta pointless, right?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, let's say that (just for the fun of imagining) the Arrow writers used the Flash finale to fix their show. They come back and the past two seasons are replaced with a new history that we get in dialog and flashbacks.

Do we rejoice and go with it, or would that be more bad writing?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think it'd be a mistake.  Going back a couple years would only work in our timeline - not theirs smile  Even if Laurel was back alive, the current writers would still be more interested in developing Felicity.

The fact that they aired Flash before Arrow and then didn't reference it on Arrow makes me think the changes won't be wide-spread.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Superman is apparently going to make a full appearance on Supergirl, in the first two episodes of season 2. People are already calling for Tom Welling, but I think that is the wrong role for him.

I wonder if they really are shipping Kara off to Earth 1, and getting this out of tye way while they can.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

To get the tax credit, I think they also have to start using a few Canadian actors in prominent roles (for instance, Tom Cavanaugh on Flash is Canadian).  I would expect Superman to like hockey.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Superman is apparently going to make a full appearance on Supergirl, in the first two episodes of season 2. People are already calling for Tom Welling, but I think that is the wrong role for him.

See, I disagree.  I'd love for them to connect the Arrowverse to Smallville, and this would be the way to do it.  Yeah, Kara looks different but there were already two Karas on Smallville and maybe this Kara was a "fraternal duplicate"

If they are going to move Kara to Earth 1, this would be the only time they'd get to use Superman.  So why not use it as a chance to tie it in to the reason all of them have jobs?  Because if Tom Welling and Smallville weren't successful, there's no Arrow.  And no Flash.  And no Supergirl.  Probably.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'd love to see Tom Welling play Superman on SUPERGIRL not in a continuity-oriented sense -- just that I think the actor does a good job of being Superman/Clark Kent (as opposed to acting) and I think he'd do an amazing job. I'd be less in favour of Brandon Routh or Henry Cavill largely because I feel those are two actors who need the special effects -- the hairstyling, the rigs, the lighting, the costume -- to be Superman. In contrast, Tom comes off as Superman just from his affable, earnest, compassionate screen presence matched with his intensely commanding physical persona.

If they can't get Tom Welling, I would like them to hire Gregory Smith who is already working on ARROW as a director. He wouldn't be the traditional image of Superman as a muscled, six foot tall figure, however -- Smith is a toothpick sort of fellow, but Superman's strength doesn't come from his muscles anyway and he could capture Superman's earnest, heartfelt sincerity and love for all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Having Tom play Superman would be weird. Kara doesn't just look different. His Kara looks like Indigo. His Lara looks like Eliza Danvers. His Curtis Knox (who was pretty much Vandal Savage) looks like Jeremiah Danvers. Jimmy Olsen is suddenly black. Cat Grant, Lucy Lane and the General have new faces.

Having Tom play the role would force them to explain that he is Clark, but not Smallville's Clark... or they would need a huge exposition scene to try to make it work somehow. Plus, we would then be wondering when Erica would show up, or Allison. It would be easier to just give him another character to play. Maybe someone who could cross over to the other shows if he were interested.

I was thinking that it might be cool to go with an older Clark, but that wouldn't line up with the ages of Lucy or Jimmy. I really don't know who would he a good choice. I would have to think about that.

It would be cool to see Chloe Sullivan pop up. Not played by Allison Mack, but someone new. To solidify her place in the Superman universe. Maybe Winn could date her.

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