Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)


Red!Kara terrified me. I cowered under my blanket when she swaggered into the nightclub and nearly crushed Jimmy's hand. It just freaked me out. A lot. I watched AMERICAN HORROR STORY without flinching, but this was just disturbing.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Really? I mean, aside from doing the obviously bad things, I kinda liked her that way. There is really no reason why Kara shouldn't be strong and capable in her daily life. Taking down Siobhan wasn't evil, it was the work of someone who wasn't afraid to get rid of the person who is trying to destroy Kara and undermine Cat. I loved it when Siobhan cowered out of the place and Kara made a snappy comment to her. THAT is the Kara that I want to see around, not someone who is pretending to be shy and nervous and constantly pushing up her glasses.

I remember reading some Supergirl comic books a while back and thinking that she reminded me of Buffy. She was strong, but had a sense of humor and youth that she wasn't ashamed of, which set her apart from Superman.

I mean, yeah, throwing Cat off of a building was a bit much and letting the alien go shouldn't happen. I think there would be a nice middle ground somewhere.

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It was the nightclub scene that really creeped me out. Kara was so indifferently cruel and unnervingly predatory towards James and spoke with a casual cruelty about Lucy and Jimmy's breakup. It scared me. It was like Faith from BUFFY in Season 3 - 4 at her most deranged and homicidal.

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Yeah, that was bad. I am just not a fan of "James" Olsen, so I didn't mind it much. There is just nothing right about that character. He is a boring, lifeless, cookie-cutter love interest character who is undeserving of his iconic name. I can't tell how whether Mehcad is a bad actor or just has a crappy role to play.

Though it contradicts my opinion of Kara, I did think that Melissa did a nice job with the aftermath. Her breaking down was nicely played... But I would still prefer her to have a back bone regularly.

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I know, intellectually, that Kara's geeky, awkward nervousness is a performance. It's not Melissa's real voice, posture, bearing or facial expressions -- but to me, it doesn't come off as a performance, it's just Kara's natural behaviour. When she's in costume, she's still Kara -- she's just a version of Kara who isn't struggling with her interpersonal dilemmas, and the interactions she has with others are largely restricted to their grateful praise or homicidal malevolence. Which is why, whenever that persona drops, I'm really disturbed. But I take it you don't like Melissa's performance at all?

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I don't have anything against her necessarily, I just hate how the character is written. I think the show is an uninspired waste of potential.

This week, we saw a glimpse of Kara's younger years. I wish they focused more on that. Not like a Smallville clone, but more of her struggle as an alien in this strange place. Learning the language, learning how to speak it without an accent, learning the culture while mourning for the loss of her own. I don't get the sense that the writers love Supergirl because she is being forced into this Superman-shaped hole. It's the same with Arrow. After season 2 was over and Slade was gone, it's like the writers got bored by how much Oliver isn't Batman.

The Flash and Legends feel like the writers are having so much more fun and are excited to be there. Same with Gotham.

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Something I had forgot to remark on, but the latest episode of Flash had Jessie leaving for Opal City; it could be just an Easter egg, or it could be a set up for something more.

Opal City is the home of Starman who had powers somewhat akin to Green Lantern but based on technology; he was originally an Earth 2 character who fought alongside Jay Garrick in the Justice Society.  After Starman became an old man, he passed along his equipment to his more respectable son only to see him shot and killed on his first outing as a hero.  The more rebellious son then took up the mantle in his own counter-culture style, and it went on to become a really great comic based in both science and mysticism.

One of the main characters in the book was The Shade - an old Jay Garrick villain who was possessed by some kind of shadow entity that fell from the stars.  While giving The Shade the power to manipulate shadow into solid forms, it also made him immortal and thus hundreds of years old in present day.

In any case, Opal has many ties to Earth 2 and even Jay Garrick, so I'm thinking we'll be seeing much more of that.  This version of Starman was also considered to become a tv series for ABC many years ago, but ultimately they passed on it.

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I'm looking forward to reading STARMAN at some point. It's in the queue. I knew of STARMAN and Opal City by reputation. It was nice to see proper references to the DC Universe. It's a nice change from the SMALLVILLE days where they would mess up their references to the comics, like referring to Edge City (which is actually the city in THE MASK).

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Jessie becomes a speedster too, right?

130 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-03-28 23:29:52)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Supergirl/Flash crossover worked really, really well.  I thought it was great.  The way the fight ended was super cheesy, but most of the Barry/Kara scenes were pretty great.  I also thought it was a bit silly how he ended up in the Supergirl universe, and I thought it was a bit silly that they assumed running fast would send him back.  But, oh well, it was worth it.

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

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I'm not a Felicity hater, but the team was so much more fun with Curtis in the "Overwatch" role.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

I know that one of the producers has said that Barry's trip to Kara's Earth will be referenced in an upcoming episode of The Flash. The production team wasn't able to nail down exactly when the Supergirl episode would air (different networks) in order to make it tie in directly. I expect it won't be more than a throw away remark.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

DieselMickyDolenz wrote:
Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I do wonder if it's going to have any impact on the Arrowverse.  Will Barry try and look for alien life?  Will Kara ever reference the Flash again?

I know that one of the producers has said that Barry's trip to Kara's Earth will be referenced in an upcoming episode of The Flash. The production team wasn't able to nail down exactly when the Supergirl episode would air (different networks) in order to make it tie in directly. I expect it won't be more than a throw away remark.

I would guess we'll see the reference in the next Flash episode.  I notice that this week's ep reintroduced us to the device Flash was wearing on his chest when he arrived on Supergirl's earth.  Flash doesn't usually keep us waiting on use of plot devices.

As for future references, I'm sure they'll throw something in on the rare occasion, but they'll probably focus on just doing more crossovers.  In the end, Flash also has a built in way to permanently get all the toys in one box - that future newspaper headline that mentioned the red skies.  During the Crisis on Infinite Earths, those red skies were actually the bleed between universes as the walls of reality were starting to break down.  With most of the multiverse destroyed, the final remaining earths merged together to form a single prime reality.

This could happen with the Supergirl / Arrowverse / Earth 2, etc realities if CBS decides to let it happen.  The universe merger certainly had a great many hiccups in the aftermath, though; but that just gives story to explore.

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Well, Alan Sepinwall had a great point.  Supergirl's numbers jumped when Flash was on board.  Meaning that CW fans came over to watch Barry on Supergirl.  In other words, CBS (the #1 network) depended on the CW to boost their ratings.  That's simply incredible, and it shows how the CW has really done well in terms of producing original programming.  They really took advantage of the superhero craze, and the other networks either failed to take advantage or simply failed when they tried.

And I'd like to see more crossovers.  What's interesting is the complete lack of overlap in the two universes.  If Kara or Clark exist in the Arrowverse (and Rip Hunter implied Superman exists), then they haven't made themselves public.  And they flat-out said that Flash, Green Arrow, and Black Canary don't exist in Supergirl's universe.  Not only that, but none of the Flash cast existed. 

I know it was done to avoid more crossovers in that episode (because Barry would use Team Flash to get home instead of Team Kara), but it is interesting that they've basically set up a Venn Diagram where nothing really crosses over.  Although I gotta think that Kara looked up Barry on her earth, and Barry looked up Kara when he got home.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There were parts of the crossover that were fun. The goofy interaction was enjoyable, and Kara had more chemistry with Barry than pretty much anyone else on the show. Having him there exposed a lot of the show's weaknesses, because it was awkward to see him in something so far beneath the quality of his own show. The writing and directing were horrible. It felt like a last minute attempt to save the show, which has failed to reach the level of acclaim of the other DC shows, and which hasn't yet been renewed. It didn't feel like a real event crossover, as it should have.

I wouldn't mind seeing Kara show up on The Flash if her show is cancelled (like Constantine did on Arrow) but if they did that, they should use Melissa to bring in Power Girl, and avoid having to rebuild this version of Supergirl from scratch. Though they could use her if they get to the Crisis point in the story.

Legends took some risks this week, after the first 1950's episode completely failed to hit the mark. It was a really interesting episode, having three characters stranded for two years and revealing Rory to be Chronos. It makes me think that they will be switching up the cast next year, but we will see.

Arrow was horrible. So, so horrible. They took one of the worst Flash villains and put her on Arrow, and made the plot revolve around a silly McGuffin that shouldn't exist in the first place, for so many reasons.
I agree that the team was better without Felicity. I don't necessarily like the Curtis character too much, but at least he isn't a whiny, annoying, self righteous, horrible CEO, which Felicity has become.

The Flash was really interesting. Barry changed the past. How does that alter his present? How can he live in a world that he knows is wrong? I know that technically, his entire timeline was wrong to begin with, but the world he knows is essentially gone now. He is like Quinn Mallory seeing his dead father walk through the door.
It's interesting that Sara messed with her past too, on Legends this week, but those changes were used to create the timeline that she already knows.

So question... Will Talia be used in the future, or was her introduction just a wink to the audience?

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Okay, let me try and tackle all that.

SUPERGIRL - I agree that Kara had better chemistry with Barry than anyone on her show.  While that's a problem, it's not necessarily a huge problem.  I think Melissa hit a high point with her character (she was so much fun), and they just need to channel that with the existing characters.  As far as success goes, on TV Line's Renewal Scorecard, Supergirl was recently upgrade from "A Safe Bet" to "A Sure Thing."  He's usually right so there'll be a renewal.

LEGENDS - I liked the Chronos reveal too.  Once again, a season-long baddie ends up being a former hero, but that just seems to be par for the course in the Arrowverse.  I liked this last episode a lot, and I think it did much better than the previous 1950s episode.  The whole 2-year thing was pretty cool, and it'll be interesting to see how it affects Ray, Kendra, and Sara.  Regarding the cast for next year, Michael Ausiello (TV Line again) said that he doesn't believe there will be a wholesale change in the cast to season two.  So it won't be an anthology series....which is both fine and disappointing.

ARROW - You still hate this show more than I do.  I thought this last episode was pretty good.  I don't love Curtis either, but he was fun like Felicity used to be.  And it seems like we'll find out who's in the grave this week.

FLASH - The past was changed but not really.  I think we're supposed to believe that Hartley is supposed to be the biggest change.  Outside of that, Barry didn't change much.  Thawne knows, but I think Barry covered that.  The team knows, but they know not to mess with history too much.  Not much else was changed, was it?

TALIA - Well, Talia would be way older, right?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

With Supergirl... I think it will probably be renewed, but the network definitely isn't as happy with it as they'd like to be. It wasn't included with the early renewals, which is telling. But more than that, the Flash crossover tells me that they were looking for a boost from a fan base that they don't see tuning in. The show isn't generating much heat.

I don't think that Legends necessarily needs to have a full overhaul of the cast, but I'd like to see some swapping out each season. Stein is married. He needs to go home (while remaining a part of this overall universe).

It's isn't really that I hate Arrow, it's just that I don't feel like the writers are present there. It irritates me when solid potential is wasted. I liked seeing Laurel and Oliver showing an actual friendship. It makes sense, and it always seemed awkward when they weren't closer (usually because they were trying to force Oliver to interact with Felicity all the time).
I don't really care who is in the grave at this point. By that, I mean that the buildup was useless. It was a waste of time, because there were no clues and none of the mystery had a purpose. I would hate to see a couple of the characters die. I'd be upset if they killed Laurel, because Black Canary isn't a throwaway character. I'd be upset if they kill Diggle or Thea. Other than that... they have killed Oliver and it meant nothing, so they have to earn back the emotional response. My prediction is that it will be someone who doesn't really matter. Curtis' husband, Alex, Donna or even Quentin don't really matter.

Barry discovered time travel much earlier on The Flash now. Has he used it more than before? They could pretty much use that change to alter anything. Ronnie could walk through the door next week and it could be explained with a shrug and "Time travel!"

Talia would be older, but she might not look older. She could be Ruve Darhk... but would that be too much?

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138 (edited by ireactions 2016-04-04 16:01:02)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERGIRL's main problem is that it makes choices that are mutually exclusive. The creators wanted Kara to be in her late 20s and gainfully employed, but they also wanted Kara as socially undeveloped individual who doesn't know how to use her powers. They wanted Kara working at a newspaper, but they also wanted her working in an espionage agency. They wanted Kara to have a secret identity, but they also wanted to surround Kara with a supporting cast who are all in on the secret. They wanted a football player type love interest, but they wanted that love interest to be Jimmy Olsen.

I think Informant would agree that writing is about choices. Either Supergirl is an adolescent or an adult, a journalist or a spy, a loner or a team player. The show tries to do both and it just gets confused -- Kara has to hide her identity, but everyone knows it. She's had her powers for years, but isn't sure she's bulletproof. She's got government black ops access to information, but she's basically an intern at her job. She wants to work in journalism, but she never writes stories and works as a gofer. It's like there were two different pitches for SUPERGIRL -- Kara Danvers, the college student interning at Catco who feels compelled to fight crime and Kara Danvers, secret agent and superheroine -- and they smashed the two together.

The crossover episode was a very nice script that was very awkwardly executed. The climax is bizarre: there is almost no footage of all the civilians and Kara in the same shot, so the sense is that the people and the superfight are footage from two different locations stitched together.

The shot of Livewire and Silver Banshee suddenly getting electroshocked has no visual information to explain why they're suddenly going down. The firemen appear out of nowhere and the low-angle shot suggests that the fireman was actually introduced earlier in a cut scene -- the composition would imply you're supposed to recognize the character as opposed to seeing a stranger.

It's almost as though footage was lost or unfilmed for some reason and the editors had to put the sequence together with shots of extras, close-ups of Benoist and a few shots of Livewire and Banshee being defeated by some off-camera force -- and do without scenes of the firemen arriving, Supergirl surrounded by the people in the park, the water hitting Livewire and Banshee with Supergirl and the people in the same frame, etc..

Did they get kicked out of the park early or something? Did an actor get sick? Was there a hard drive crash? Something clearly went wrong during production.

EDITED TO ADD: Oh. The fireman was in the Red Kryptonite episode in which Kara saved him. Well. I stand by my reasoning.

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Agreed.  It is hard to believe that this show is produced by the same people as The Flash or Legends.

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It's not always the writers and producers. CBS might say they don't want a youth show; it has to be adults. The studio might have a relationship with certain actors they want and require the series to write in a football player type as the lead love interest. The studio might declare it's vital that Supergirl be working with an establishment agency while the network wants a supporting cast of attractive people who hang out and therefore all need to be in on the secret. It's hard to say. The truth is that the CW is remarkably open-minded these days; a lot of networks might take issue with the distinctly non-model looking Grant Gustin as a lead character or demand that Caitlin be seen in the shower once a week.

You never know. Best we can do is review the aired product.

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That is true, but a lot of the weaknesses are just in the writing and directing. There is no excuse for having Alex shouting Kara's secret in a public place.

A lot of writing for television involves finding ways to work with what you have. You can't just throw your hands up and blame the network for every little thing.

Though to be fair, CBS does have remarkably bad shows. They must be messing things up somewhere.

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I actually agree with all that.  Kara's character doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  And another one - they want Superman to be a presence in the show, but they don't want him to be in the show.  They want it to sorta be in the DCCU but also be its own thing.  Which leads to a ton of problems.  When Kara goes evil, Clark is either trusting J'onn to do what was necessary to save National City, or he's allowing the 2nd/3rd most powerful being on the planet to run amok.

I'm not sure I could give you five reasons why I like Supergirl.  I just think it's enjoyable to watch smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Sometimes, it's enough to like the cast of a show. As much as I've had issues with Arrow lately, I do like the cast a lot. I want the show to be better for them.

In the crossover, it was fun to see Kara's reaction to Barry. Her reaction to getting the ice cream. The fun of it. I think that's an interesting element for the character. She could be fun and happy and enjoy this life, but the world they've put her in doesn't allow for that. She is either being yelled at by a boss that she's scared of, or she is stuck in a poorly lit cave, surrounded by super soldiers. This is the problem with the show. They've tried to make her something that she isn't, and the character is rejecting the story. Sadly, being a CBS show likely means that there will be no drastic changes to the formula, so this is what she is stuck with for the rest of the series.

There were times when I was reading the Supergirl comics that I thought she acted a lot like Buffy Summers. She was a badass, but she was also fun and quirky. The show would be so much better if they did away with the government element and put Kara into a world where she could have some fun. I'm not saying that it has to be a comedy, but there isn't much that can hurt her. She's already lost everything she loved. She watched her home blow up. The worst things imaginable are already in her rear view mirror. She should either be more traumatized and messed up, or she should lighten up and be fun. I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point. It would probably require a massive cast overhaul. I'd get rid of the DEO entirely. Martian Manhunter would be cut back to an occasional guest star (he can't stay on the show as he is. He is too big of a character to be a supporting character to a secondary superhero). I'd ditch Jimmy. He just doesn't work on the show. And Lucy would go too.
There might be a way to stay at CatCo, but I'm not sure how. Kara needs to stop living Clark's life, so how would she go about doing that while remaining at a massive media outlet?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Sadly, being a CBS show likely means that there will be no drastic changes to the formula, so this is what she is stuck with for the rest of the series.

It could be worse.  It could be a FOX show, and Kara could be police consultant.  Like every show on their network.

I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point.

I think it'd take an incident where Alex is killed.  Maybe with J'onn responsible.  So he goes off on his own (sorta like his arc on Justice League Unlimited) to live among the humans.  And because Kara truly has lost everyone (I assume Dean Cain stays/is dead at this point too).  So she goes off on her own.  Leaves CatCo and National City and does her own thing.  Maybe have her travel the country like Supernatural for a year before she settles somewhere else.  Or maybe she goes on some season-long journey as part of her job at CatCo so Winn and James could continue to guest star.

Other than that, I think the status quo will continue.

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I don't know... Isn't the DEO just a super fancy police department for aliens? And technically, she is just a consultant there, since she isn't an agent and gets no money from it. So... Yeah, it is pretty much every procedural on TV, with an S on the chest.

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146 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-04-05 00:24:02)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, on FOX, it would actually be her working with a policeman.  Both as her regular job and her secret job.  Jimmy would've quit his job as a photographer to work as a cop in National City (because that's what his dad was or something).  And Kara would be an expert on alien life or something, and they'd solve cases together.  Like Minority Report.  And Lucifer.  And Almost Human.  And Sleepy Hollow.  And this new Houdini and Doyle show.  And so on and so on and so on.

But, yeah, I see what you mean.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Informant wrote:

I'm just not sure how I'd go about restructuring the series at this point.

I think it'd take an incident where Alex is killed.

This is pretty much the attitude of Sony towards AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. It never works. Yes, SUPERGIRL made mistakes out the gate where it needed to choose A or B and it chose both. But what's done is done. Rather than try to turn SUPERGIRL into a different show, it would be best to identify the strengths of this mis-mash and make the best of it now. Retooling at this point would only deepen the creative dissonance. What works about SUPERGIRL?

The cast is superb: Melissa Benoist, Chyler Leigh and David Harewood have terrific chemistry, Benoist bouces off Mechad Brooks and Jeremy Jordan nicely, Callista Flockhart is a good foil.

While there are filming issues, the superpowers are for the most part well rendered. The costume and flying effects are terrific, the fight sequences, outside of odd lapses, come off well. It's the superhero action show SMALLVILLE wasn't.

The tone is appealing. This show embraces the goofy, earnest fun of superheroes and presents Supergirl's morality and compassion as intrinsic to her nature and reflective of the potential of all human beings to behave responsibly and well.
Humour: the scripts are full of fun jokes and great wisecracks.

Legacy: the show is respectful of SUPERMAN's cinematic and televisual history, casting Helen Slater and Dean Cain in major roles, and also reflects familiar for the source material with its use of the Martian Manhunter, Toyman, Silver Banshee, etc..

What does not work? I would say that the problem is not that SUPERGIRL doesn't work; it's that all the aspects that work well also work in opposition to each other. Supergirl is a determined and easily intimidated little bookworm of a thrillseeker who works as an intern at a media agency as a highly placed agent of a top secret government agency who is in her late twenties but has no experience dating, making friends, holding down a job or using her powers and has feelings for geek icon Jimmy Olsen who is played by a six foot tall basketball player type.


I think the only option here is to turn into the swerve. First, it's time to move Winn. When you have Jimmy, you don't need another male friend at Catco, but since the actor's on contract, relocate him to the DEO and make him Alex's associate more than Kara's.

Second, Mehcad Brooks is Jimmy Olsen, deal with it. It's time to shift him from being on the executive staff at Catco to someone whose role is working the streets of National City, gathering stories that will lead to the grounded, ordinary people plots of episodes while Winn and Alex serve the fantasy plots. When Jimmy wanders into a DEO plot, the show should highlight how he feels like he's stumbled into a different TV series.

Third, I think the dissonance in Supergirl should be embraced as representing the schizophrenic nature of Supergirl's life. The series should develop three distinct and separate visual styles: crisp, still filming for the DEO/fantasy plots and documentary style camerawork for the mundane side of the series at Catco. For Season 2, Kara can develop multiple personality disorder as a result of the schism and the show really mine that for drama rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

For better or worse, this is SUPERGIRL. Attempting to turn it into a different show at this stage would just make a bigger mess; one might as well just cancel the series and do a reboot and there's no need to do that. There's plenty to enjoy with SUPERGIRL. SUPERGIRL could be a lot worse.

It could be an ugly, nasty series like GOTHAM or take itself far too seriously like the first 13 episodes of ARROW or be crassly objectifying like Seasons 2 - 7 of SMALLVILLE or be incapable of rendering superheroes like LOIS & CLARK or be a depressing bore like BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN or be witlessly self-important like that WONDER WOMAN pilot or be visually inept like the first 13 episodes of SUPERBOY or be unable to choose a tone like PUNISHER WAR ZONE.

The tone of SUPERGIRL is good. The spirit of the series is strong. The details just need some selective refinement. Choices must be made.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I tend to agree.  I was trying to think of a way to reinvent the series, but I'm still enjoying it as is.  When Info pointed out the duplicity in the series, I nodded because he's right.  But I also haven't really noticed it because I enjoy watching it.  I watched "World's Finest" the night it aired because I was *excited* to see what they'd do with him.  And I smiled the whole time watching it because Kara and Barry looked like they were having such a great time working together.

If we never get another crossover, Supergirl is going to have a place in the Arrowverse.  And that's cool.  Kara, and by connection, Clark is now in the universe started by Oliver Queen.  That's awesome.  But Supergirl isn't like Constantine - I don't see it as a failure that needs to be reabsorbed by the CW.  There's things that Supergirl does better than its cousin's shows on the CW.  And I'd love to see it continue so that we can get Stephen Amell over on CBS and Melissa Benoist on the CW.

For the record, the idea of killing Alex made me sad.  I think she's a good character.  And I think that's why I picked her - she's the one who would need to die to shake up the show show.  Killing off anyone else wouldn't do the job.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't think the DEO stuff works at all. I think that, like ARGUS, it would be okay to have them exist and sometimes work with Supergirl, but having her work with them all the time isn't right. There is a reason why Superman isn't a member of the military. It's because having someone like that work as a government agent is a scary thought. It's one thing to have the flag waving behind Superman, but it would mean something else entirely to have him marching under the President's orders. He is the everyman, not "the man". So, I strongly believe that they need to go. And honestly, the soldiers running around in the background as Kara fights bad guys are just silly. The whole thing is just there because every CBS show needs a poorly lit, techie looking facility where the walls are lined with flat screens.

So if I were executive producing the series, I would get rid of that facility. I'd have Alex leave them behind and go into a more intellectual field (it is ridiculous to have her act as a soldier next to Kara). Maybe with the mystery of her father solved, Alex can let go of her anger and go work for a university or a tech company or something.

J'onn can't be a sidekick. His role is unsustainable on the show. He needs to resolve his role as guardian of the Danvers girls and move on to find a life of his own.

Jimmy... I honestly don't see any chemistry between him and the rest of the cast. I would get rid of him too.

I don't think this is a complete overhaul of the series. I think that it could all be natural progression over time. The Cadmus storyline could make Kara rethink her role as a government agent pretty easily. Same with Alex. And Jimmy could decide that he'd rather be a photographer in the field, and go off to take pictures around the world. He could come back to National City from time to time, but he wouldn't be a regular.

Winn and Kara work well together. Kara and Alex work well together. Kara and Cat work well together (though the dynamic needs to change, because I think that Kara needs a job that means something to the character). Basically, as much as I hate that they used Clark's story for Kara, most of that stuff can stick around. Getting rid of the DEO will allow Kara to be her own person and would allow more of her fun personality to come through. I want her to be the girl who flipped out when Barry handed her ice cream, but I want that excitement to be about her own role in the world.

Unlike Clark Kent, Kara Danvers is a cover persona (not to the extent of Bruce Wayne, but more than Clark). We aren't being shown who the real Kara is.

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150 (edited by Informant 2016-04-06 21:34:47)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)




I'm not happy. The question is, is this the "not happy" that I'm supposed to feel? Or is it a "not happy" that is the result of one more bad decision?

I think it's mostly the second option, with only hints of the first. The writers messed this up. I agree that Laurel could have left the show, because I don't think that Black Canary could be just a sidekick forever. She is an icon and should have been respected a lot more than she was on the show. The threw her aside and forced Felicity down our throats over these last two seasons. So yeah, if Laurel left to become her own hero, I'd be okay with that.

But they killed her. They killed Black Canary... again (if you count Sara as a version of the character). They killed Laurel before she was allowed to become *the* Black Canary. The one who could lead the Justice League. That irks me, because I've always liked Black Canary more than Wonder Woman and thought that she was the best female superhero.

Legacy aside, I don't get the constant need to kill Lance women. We've already seen how Quentin will react, so what point is there in that? It feels more like they did it just to get rid of the Oliver/Laurel relationship once and for all, after neglecting it for most of the last two years. And the weird thing is, I was finally starting to enjoy the group dynamic tonight! With Felicity gone, Laurel and Oliver were finally having conversations that weren't arguments. They were acting like old friends, as they should have been all along. They were letting Laurel do more on the show. They were letting her interact with Thea nicely. I was actually thinking how much smoother the group scenes were without Olicity drama in the background. Then they killed Laurel, who was a big part of that, and this will undoubtedly bring Felicity back to take down Damien.

And it wasn't well done. The way they let Damien get his idol back was sloppy. Laurel's death was the result of stupidity, resulting from bad writing (Andy shouldn't even be a factor). They should have kept Damien powerless and locked away. They should have made Malcolm the villain for the rest of the year, and they should have killed him once and for all. He is quickly becoming the Crowley of this series, and that's not a good thing.

In terms of the story, I liked seeing Oliver relate to Laurel. I liked seeing her open up to him at the end. It was honest. It's the story that the writers have been desperately trying to avoid for two years. But it was useless to throw it in at the end.

And Laurel's death just seemed like a ploy. They cut away before it happened, giving the impression that it's a trick and she will be back later. But the writers have insisted that they intend to make this death stick. So was it just bad editing/writing? Or are they lying about it? (Katie isn't exactly moving on with her life. I won't say more than that, in case it counts as a spoiler).

I don't know. It doesn't feel good either way. I'm not happy about the death or the writing.

EDIT: and in case anyone doubts my comments about bad writing... Vixen smashed the Damien's totem. Now it's back together because... it is.

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I'm not sure I'm as upset as some (there's a really big #NoLaurelNoArrow hashtag going on now) because I'm not all that familiar with Laurel from the comics.  I don't like the idea that a character should be off-limits because they're a big deal in the comics.  If they need to kill Oliver (for real, not like last time) and it serves the greater Arrowverse story, then that'd be fine with me.  But I think the problem for me is that Laurel was never a great character on this show.  I don't think the writers knew what to do with her, they stumbled on this female character that was easier to write (Felicity), and then that grew into a monster.  Guggenheim basically said tonight that they did all they could with Laurel/Oliver, and they needed to close the book on it.

I still say the death should've been Diggle.  I think it would've meant a lot more to the team because Laurel barely felt like a team member in the first place.  She meant more as an ADA and a reason to keep Lance around.  Now....I don't really know what this changes.

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I'm not against them killing her just because she is Black Canary. I'm really not. It is just the whole situation that bothers me.

They didn't do everything they could with the character. They spent two seasons purposefully not doing anything with her, and by the time they got around to using her, they were pushing Felicity as the female lead. And now they killed Laurel, and have her endorse Olicity in her final moments... And then the producer craps all over fans of the character, calling them a "vocal minority", which is exactly why Olicity exists in the first place.

While Legends and The Flash are embracing their comic book roots, Arrow seems ashamed of them and disrespectful to them. There are decades of stories with this iconic character, and the writers refuse to use any of them, because they conflict with Olicity!

Comic book characters die all the time. I'm not opposed to it really. But this whole situation sucks. It was disrespectful, the way it was handled. And ultimately, it was only done because they had to kill someone and they didn't like Laurel. Now we have another Lance daughter dying. How is this a fresh story to play?

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Well, here's the situation they had in front of them - kill a regular or cop out and kill someone less significant.  Prior to this, you said you were most worried that they would kill someone small - like Lance or Felicity's mom.  I was in the same boat.  Is this better than that?

So if we are talking about regulars, it's Oliver, Thea, Felicity, Laurel, Diggle.  Technically Lance and Merlyn are regulars, but we're talking about Team Arrow here. 

Oliver - It wasn't going to be him.  They sorta tried it last season, and it was a mess.

Thea - You could make the same argument with Lance women and Queen women.  Oliver lost his dad, lost his mom, and this would be losing his sister.  Stripping down his character would be fine, but you'd see a lot of the same criticisms with a Thea death as a Laurel death.

Felicity - Let's face it - this is the one you wanted.  And I don't necessarily disagree with it as the choice.  But these guys aren't idiots.  They see ratings, they do polling, they do focus groups, they sell DVDs, they look at social media - while there are definitely people who hate Olicity, enough Olicity fans exist that they had to know that Felicity is a major force in their success.  I'm with you - I don't get it.  But there are hardcore fans on both sides of the Olicity debate, and if they were going to kill a primary member of Team Arrow, there was a 50/50 chance it was going to be one side of the Olicity debate.

Diggle - This was my vote.  Diggle is awesome.  He's cool.  He's funny, but he's also the backbone of Team Arrow.  Hell, Oliver is the badass star of the show, and DIGGLE IS HIS BODYGUARD.  Diggle is his right hand.  But imagine if last night's episode had gone the same way, but it's Diggle that dies.  Because Oliver didn't do enough to prove that Andy was a traitor.  Diggle dies because Andy betrayed him.  I can see the anger in Oliver's eyes.  But also the fear.  Whenever Oliver was in a dangerous spot, Dig had his back.  Now he's got to face the most dangerous foe he's ever faced without anyone watching his back.  He's going to look behind him and realize, "holy crap, my backup is my sister and my ex.  Both have been in the field for only a couple of years.  If Diggle can die, ANY of us can die."

Laurel - And here's the last one.  If Oliver is off the table and Felicity is too popular, then Laurel was the easy choice.  I didn't think they were going to do it because I thought Laurel was the Lois to Felicity's Lana.  That Oliver had to go through Felicity to get to the real love of his life.  And that's why I was surprised - moreso than I would've been for anyone else.  I thought she was safe.

But if this show only has one more season left, even if they killed Felicity, do you think there was enough time to salvage Laurel's character?  Even if Felicity was gone and replaced by Curtis (who you also don't love), haven't they already burned through enough of your goodwill?  Could the show really ever be salvaged?

What's crazy to me after looking at the #Olicity and #NoLaurelNoArrow hashtags last night, is the VITRIOL on both sides of the debate.  I guess it's good that people care enough, but Olicity fans were cheering the death of Laurel while I saw Laurel fans throwing away DVDs, burning merchandise, condemning the show and its writers.  All over a fake romance?  That just seemed bizarre.

And that's why I would've picked Diggle.  I know I would've been declared racist, and I know people would've left then.  But is Arrow like Walking Dead now?  Where the show simply isn't good enough and so people are only watching for one or two characters?  So the show was literally damned no matter who it killed?

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I don't know that there was a good way to resolve the grave mystery. It was a useless mystery that meant nothing, and they backed themselves into a corner with it. Laurel or Diggle could have left the show without dying. Laurel had a greater destiny, and Diggle is raising a kid in the DC equivalent of Detroit. Those are good reasons to leave. Felicity had a natural out already. This would have all been fine, but they wanted a hook, so they came up with a death that they had no idea how to resolve.

At this point, I find the death frustrating because of how it happened and why it happened, not *because* it happened necessarily. The episode revolved around a prop that was already destroyed and had no reason to exist. It revolved around them knowing that Damien could get his power back with this prop, yet they kept it in a display case in a bunker that a random dude literally stumbled into last week.

There is no indication that next year will be the last. It should be, but I doubt it. The show needs an overhaul. Have Barry's time travel ripple through, or flash forward five years. But I don't think that Laurel's death adds much of anything new.

And then to have the producer insult a lot of the fans so openly is just weird. I think the show is imploding. Katie is probably lucky to get out now.

Would I have preferred a useless character to die instead? No. I would have preferred better writing with natural progression instead of cheap gimmicks. smile

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Yeah, they could've just had someone leave, but how many times is Team Arrow going to hit the streets and come back unscathed.  In these action shows, I think people need to die, or the action pieces become pedestrian.  Roy left the show alive and well.  If you also have Diggle or Laurel or Thea leave, then Team Arrow becomes indestructible.  I think Oliver really needs to learn that he's putting himself and his closest family in danger.  And that's why I would've picked Diggle.  I would've kept Andy good (or brought in someone else) who could serve as a surrogate father and take baby Sara out of harm's way.

I honestly don't hate Olicity.  What I don't really like is the drama.  So if Laurel's death gets rid of a character that the writers had no use for and pushes Oliver and Felicity to a better place with no drama, then I think it could be fine.  What's odd is that Curtis is getting promoted to a series regular next season, and he fills in the same role as Felicity.  So unless he's going to train and become Mr. Terrific, then I don't know where he fits in.

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Rumors are suggesting that Felicity will become Black Canary. It would be ridiculous, I think, but I can't honestly say that I don't think the writers would go there.

Felicity provided the consequences this year, without the need for anyone to die. Paralyzing someone should be a pretty big consequence. But it wasn't.

I don't know. I am seriously considering how much this show is worth to me anymore. I keep holding out hope for it to get better, but can it get better if the writers just don't care? I like the cast (mostly) but is that enough?

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Well, Felicity was shot in an ambush.  That's not really what I'm talking about.  What I'm talking about is this team going out, week after week, with no one coming back even injured most of the time.  Thea made a joke about excuses for bruises, but it was in reference to sparring with Oliver. 

To compare it to Walking Dead again, the regulars on that show are all basically Navy SEALS at this point.  They come up with a plan and execute it perfectly every week.  The problem is that there's no drama there.  And I've found myself more and more likely to look at my phone during a fight scene because there's no longer any drama to it.  It's just going to be Team Arrow or whoever doing some punching or kicking, and then we're on to the next scene that might mean something.

I was thinking last night that Thea and Laurel got ambushed by League of Assassins and came out okay.  These are the top killers in the world, and Thea and Laurel fought them off like it was nothing.  Yeah, the League got what they came for, but that's where Laurel could've easily been killed.

If the League of Assassins or these Ghosts are supposed to be so tough, they can't be relegated to Puddies from Power Rangers.  We have to see what they can do, and the best way to do that is to show them kicking one of our guy's butts.  And that's, honestly, yet to happen.  Ra's, Merlyn, and Dahrk have been able to win against our guys, but that's about it.

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True enough. But Laurel's death doesn't really help in that department. She was killed by a magical paralysis wave of the hand, caused by a totem that has already been destroyed. She couldn't even put up a fight. It was a pathetic way to go out.
On top of that Damien didn't even stab her to death very well. If she didn't die by some fluke later, his big message to Quentin would have been a flop.

Diggle is to blame for her death, but Andy didn't even kill her directly. Malcolm could have killed her, which would have been interesting.

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No that's absolutely true.  But they, at least, know that Dahrk is more dangerous than anyone they've faced before since he's actually killed.  Ra's never managed to do it.  Merlyn's killed before, but his murder of Sara was sorta roundabout.

I just think there needs to be consequences.  It actually could've been an interesting creative move if they'd had someone like Laurel die out on a routine night out via one of the Ghosts.  Maybe Oliver has them out there working too hard, and Laurel gets tired and gets lazy (sorta like Batman in Knightfall).  At the end of the day, this is Oliver's story, and Laurel's death should advance his story.  He should intensely go after Dahrk, but he also has to be careful about who he sends in.

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I was fine with Laurel's death. I was sad because I really like the actress and I enjoyed the character a lot from Season 2 onward. In terms of the fan response -- if the character had to be written out for whatever reason, this was a good ending for her. She told Oliver she loved him and in a very unselfish, earnest way. She had come to the close of her career as the Black Canary and beaten alcoholism, drug addiction, tragedy. She went from a bland female character to a self-destructive time bomb to a superhero. Team Arrow is fighting a war. Casualties are a simple reality.

The only narrative issue I took with the episode -- Diggle's insane faith in his brother was ridiculous and the show plainly declares it to be ridiculous and I get it, but I couldn't quite wrap my head around Oliver not kidnapping Andy quietly and locking him up in the Pipeline or the island prison until this thing was resolved.

As for the other complaints about the show as a whole -- I guess I see them, but I've never found ARROW to be particularly problem-free. Season 1, I found absolutely ridiculous in that the show was filmed and shot as a Serious Cinematic Christopher Nolan Crime Drama but with hammy performances, stagey looking sets and absurd characterization like the Huntress becoming evil because she finds out Oliver has an ex-girlfriend. Oliver's voiceovers were embarrassing. Moira Queen was insufferable. Tommy and Laurel were useless. You can't have the lead character get in fights week after week and look picture perfect and still claim to be a Grounded Action Drama.

Seasons 2 - 4 have veered into a heightened, exaggerated superhero escapism. All the flaws are largely due to the show diving into the absurdities of the genre where Season 1 was hesitant and restrained and trying to be serious. Over time, the absurdities have mounted and accumulated with nearly every character becoming a vigilante and the technology becoming as advanced as STAR TREK's and the mythologizing of certain characters (the Arrow and Felicity) getting over the top due to doing it in many episodes over a season.

There are some areas where I think the show went too far in Season 3, such as making Felicity the perfect female specimen desired by all men because the writers became hopelessly besotted with the actress who played her. There are aspects of the show that remain contrived and silly like the idol somehow being intact after Vixen destroyed it and Oliver's flashbacks progressing through plot elements always in sync with whatever's happening five years afterwards. But... it's a superhero show. I guess I just accept that it's absurd and the show gave up realism sometime around the revelation of the Undertaking in Season 1.

It's always been ridiculous -- I think it's just gotten ridiculous in areas that some viewers find irksome and possibly through familiarity having made certain plot elements grating.

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Another thought on shipper outrage -- I think it's stupid. I'm a shipper in a sense -- I enjoy seeing certain pairings of actors. I love seeing Quinn and Wade bounce off each other. I got really annoyed when the Clark/Chloe pairing was broken up on SMALLVILLE, but my issue was not that they weren't a couple. My issue was that the show rarely put these two characters in the same scene for various behind the scenes reasons that ultimately served to drag the show down.

Dan Harmon has a hilarious Season 6 commentary on an episode I can't recall where he briefly does an impression of a Jeff-Annie shipper whining that Jeff and Annie had an argument, and that he hates the show now because he measures it only in terms of a specific romance; no other character or storyline on the show has any value and that the show exists only to produce this one isolated element of its plots and characters.

Ultimately, that's how I see the more militant shippers. Regardless of whether Oliver was paired with Laurel or Felicity, he interacted regularly with both characters. Given how the majority of the series has had Oliver single and those fans kept watching, the appeal was not Oliver being in a romantic relationship with one or the other but simply being in scenes with those characters. And whether or not the show is currently supporting an Oliver/________ pairing, it shouldn't be the only measure of quality.

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ireactions wrote:

Another thought on shipper outrage -- I think it's stupid.

Agree 2000%.  I have a friend who is a Olicity hater, and he was prominently retweeting #NoLaurelNoArrow tweets all day.  And I just don't understand that.  And the Olicity fangirls seem even worse.  I think there are people who think Felicity is annoying, and I think there are people who are just huge fans of Black Canary.  And those people were annoyed that Oliver Queen was ending up with someone else.  I think a lot of them see GA/BC as one of the greater comic couples around, and they want to see that romance on Arrow.

And, on the other side, I think a lot of girls see themselves as Felicity.  An awkward, shy, nerdy girl who can get the big handsome man.  So she's an audience insert, and they like that.  It's funny...when my roommate would walk by when I was watching Arrow in the living room, he'd stop when Felicity was on the screen.  And I'd say something like, "She's the nerd."  And he'd look confused because Emily Bett Rickards is clearly very attractive.  And I'd point out the fact that she wears glasses and makes pop culture references, and he'd just shake his head and walk away. 

What's sad, in a way, is that the show is so divisive, and the two sides are so entrenched, that the show's kinda screwed either way.  If Laurel had died telling Oliver he was the love of her life and said nothing else (especially nothing about Felicity), I think it would've been better for "Lauliver" fans because "she died the love of his life."  But what happened was they set themselves up where you have people actively hating one character because she's the rival of your character.  It just ends up hurting the show, and I don't know how else the show could move passed it besides just killing off the character they view to be less valuable.

That being said, I've convinced myself the the Laurel death is a fake-out.  I think whatever was in the pouch is something to stop her heart or whatever, and it's a fakeout.  And maybe the "secret" she told him involved telling her dad (I hope, to spare poor Lance) what was going on.


Now I know the next couple episodes are supposed to revolve around trying to bring Laurel back, but that could all be part of some plan to get Dahrk.


I don't know if I love that any more, but that's how I think it'll go.  My guess is actually that it's still Felicity who dies - Curtis was promoted to a series regular, and I still think he's the one who ends up as Overwatch.  I don't see any other reason to promote him, and making Felicity the new Black Canary would be insane.

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Here's the thing for me... I liked the first two seasons. I liked the show being serious, the fight scenes being well choreographed and all of that. The characters had some issues, but overall, I liked it. They committed to the show, so it was comic-booky enough, but you could tell that they actually took it seriously. And the arc of the first two seasons, with Slade, was nicely done. The group dynamic was nice. There were layers to the Oliver/Felicity relationship. I liked having her swoon over him while he just kinda tolerated it. He relied on her and loved her, but it wasn't wishy-washy. And Diggle was an equal partner then.

I didn't like that they were holding off telling Laurel's story for so long, because she was a series regular (and the female lead) and not having a clear arc for her was just unacceptable. For two years, she had nothing but placeholder plotlines. But it was okay, because it was leading somewhere and we all knew it.

Then season 3 happened and they stopped taking the show seriously. They stopped caring about trying to make the plots feel plausible. Oliver became completely incompetent as a fighter and strategist. Felicity was moved into the role of female lead, which she has no business being. They stripped the Oliver/Felicity dynamic of every layer it had and made it into the most bland pairing on TV... it is essentially what was wrong with Laurel in the first two seasons. They're forcing something that doesn't feel right. Diggle can't possibly be an equal in the Oliver/Felicity relationship, as he once was.

The show has become more about servicing fangirls than it is about the stories. The producers think of Black Canary fans as a "vocal minority", which shows how little they even think about the comic books anymore. The team never wins a fight, because they have to fight the same enemy week after week, for a whole year (no more villains of the week). Oliver has to be dumbed down in order to make room for the rest of the team. An the writers care about the stories they're telling so little that small things like Oliver being stabbed through the chest and thrown off a cliff, or Damien's totem being smashed, are completely forgotten.

My issue isn't really about hating Felicity or loving Laurel. It's about wanting to smack the writers in the face for blowing a job that so many writers would LOVE to have the chance to take on. They just don't care, and I sinceriously don't understand why.

You look at Ra's on Legends of Tomorrow and he is actually interesting, in the few minutes that we actually see him. He is played as strong, but smart. He doesn't just kill because he's evil, he has thoughts and an understanding of what's happening. His relationship with Sara is intriguing.
Or you look at Felicity on The Flash, and she is the same character that we know and love from the first two season of Arrow. She puts her foot in her mouth. She is geeky. She is part of the team, but not forced into a leadership role that she is completely incapable of pulling off.

Then you look at the crossover and Felicity is such a selfish, arrogant, petty woman. How did they get there with her?

For a long time now, I've wanted to see Oliver and Laurel actually interact as the friends that they've been for a very long time. The producers haven't wanted to do this, first because they wanted to play the anger of their history, but then because they wanted to push Felicity as the love interest and having Oliver interact with Laurel would threaten that. So we never get to see them reach a place where they are close friends who have a long history and can actually lean on each other. Green Arrow and Black Canary were not only not a couple on this show, but they didn't even like each other for most of the show!
Then, in the last couple of weeks, since Felicity has been away, Oliver and Laurel have been talking. Growing closer. Showing their history. It felt natural and good, and it seemed like the writers were finally allowing them to be natural around each other.

I'm not a shipper. I just ask for natural interaction. Forced stories are like a hammer to the head. So this was nice. There was something right about them being closer... And then they kill her. They were just allowing them to be friends because the threat would soon be gone. And in her final moments, she pushes Olicity. After all of their years and all of their history, the last words that she speaks to Oliver are about f***ing Felicity!

And why avoid the threat? Why not have Laurel reveal the picture and have Oliver find out that he was the love of her life, and allow that story to actually play out? It doesn't mean that he has to end up with her. It just means that for once in her damn life, Laurel is allowed to be true to her character.

Was it Tracy Torme who said that when he watched Exodus, he was baffled by the way the show missed its chance to play the obvious drama in having families separated, with some living and some dying? Children being torn from their mother's arms. I think it was him. It is a vague memory, but it's a lesson that stayed with me. Those small, natural moments are the things that make a story feel real, even if it is complete fantasy. Deny that true moment of feeling, and you destroy the only reality you have to work with.

Legends of Tomorrow is a ridiculous show. It is a Saturday morning cartoon in live action. It's plots are thin, but what makes the show interesting to watch is that they explore the characters. The characters make that silly TV show more interesting than most of the Marvel universe.

Will Laurel come back? I don't know. Katie is still working in that circle, I know that much. Would her return be completely stupid? Yes. But does that matter at this point? The show, like Supergirl, needs to be seriously overhauled. They should take after the comic books and have a new showrunner come in, with a vision of what they want to do with Green Arrow. A plan. An arc. I'm tired of the show just being on TV because it hasn't been canceled yet. I want it to be on TV because there is a story to tell. And there is a story to tell! The character has been around forever. They have to have some ideas beyond Batman villains and Olicity.

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I guess for me -- while I have some issues with the soap opera of the show and some of the plots -- I don't find the problems as glaring as the problems I had with Season 1, and I thought Season 1 was terrible. So, the show didn't really start in a great place for me and I see no gold standard that it's failing to reach. I find it as flawed as ever, except the flaws have migrated to areas that don't annoy me as much as they annoy you.

Moving onto the shipping wars, which haven't really been in evidence around here and hopefully never will -- Laurel has been problematic since the first episode. In the comics, Black Canary is essentially a more feminine version of the showboating, arrogant, activist Green Arrow. But the actors they cast and the scripts they wrote bear almost no resemblance to the comic book characters.

Stephen Amell's The Hood/Arrow/Green Arrow is a driven, angry, troubled, resolute, solitary veteran of war, nothing like the adventurous thrillseeker of the comic books. Katie Cassidy's Laurel Lance is not the goofy, daring, fun-loving, high-spirited heroine who was Oliver Queen's partner in lunacy. In the comics, there's a very natural sense of two like-minded spirits who are head over heels in love. In ARROW -- you can see why the playboy Oliver might have dated Laurel and admired her, and you can see why Laurel might have had fun with the playboy Oliver -- but there is absolutely no sense that the two of them are partners in life and lunacy or could ever be.

If you ever read the GREEN ARROW comics, the idea of the spontaneous, random, eccentric Dinah Lance being a lawyer or a district attorney would be completely unthinkable. And the idea of Oliver Queen being a nightclub owner is so utterly alien to the comic book incarnation that it's funny; the Oliver Queen of the comics would prefer to go fishing and camp out in the mountains.

So, right from the start, there was this expectation that Oliver and Laurel would be the couple of the series based on the comics -- and it was an expectation the writers didn't seem to keen on themselves as they made Laurel hostile and hateful towards Oliver and made it clear Oliver was too racked with guilt and grief over his crappy behaviour towards Laurel to go near her like that, especially when she was dating his best friend. By the midpoint of Season 1, it was pretty clear that the characters as scripted didn't make a good couple and the actors as performing didn't have a lot of chemistry.

There was also a serious problem in the way they'd written Laurel Lance -- she was incredibly one-note as nothing but the love interest for one man or another, and with Season 2, the writers tried to course correct by giving Laurel a lot of personal problems from addiction to hatred of the Arrow to her sheer loathing for Sara Lance.

It was a tough road, but it finally dimensionalized Laurel and by Season 3, it was possible to see Laurel as a partner, ally and comrade to Oliver -- but there was no romance there. However, years of SMALLVILLE had apparently created a vast audience of superhero fans who weren't deeply familiar with the source material but were certain that the defaults of the source material as the knew them -- Green Arrow and Black Canary are a couple -- would be the eventual default of the show as well.

Ultimately, ARROW went its own route and I give them a lot of credit for that. But it's unquestionably where a lot of the shipping rage and wars come from -- for whatever reason, a certain segment of fans have a bizarre sense of entitlement that they justify by claiming that killing off Laurel is an unacceptable divergence from the source material.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think people are probably upset by the fact that Laurel was an unkept promise. Everything you say about her early on is true. The question was always supposed to be, how does she get to a place with Oliver where you could see them drinking coffee and talking about nothing in particular? How do Laurel's path in life and Oliver's path in life eventually bring them to a place where they have more in common?

We don't get the answer now. We saw them getting a little closer, but it was still a work in progress. Laurel telling Oliver that he was the love of her life was something that shouldn't have been a death bed confession that occurs midway through the character's arc, which is all we will ever get.

And on top of that, she never really became *the* Black Canary. She was just a sidekick... It is like killing off Bruce Wayne while he is still learning how to fight.

Laurel should have left the show for a while, and then come back as the full version of Black Canary, who can stand as Oliver's equal and not just a trainee on his team.

If she really isn't dead, I suppose they could still do that. But if she is dead, I get the outrage. For me, it is just frustrating to watch the show these days.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

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Well, I have a question and it's something that I struggle with too.  As writers, do you guys struggle with judging how a show *IS* because you're too concerned with what a show *SHOULD BE* in your eyes?

Because, Info, I know you're a writers and you've got great ideas (and I think either of you would make terrific showrunners) but a lot of the problems you're talking about are expectations for what you thought the show should be.  Expectations for what Laurel should be or what was coming.  That Laurel would become *the Black Canary* - that there could be a Team Black Canary in, say, Coast City and Laurel comes back one day as an equal to Oliver and not a sidekick.

And if that was ever the plan and it fell apart, I can see judging that.  But what if it was never the plan?  Can you really get mad about an "unkept promise" if it was never really a promise to begin with?  You might think their plan is stupid, but don't you still have to judge it by what it is?

If Laurel was a character who was a good lawyer, lost her way, and then found it again through crimefighting - then her arc is fine.  It's tragic, but at the time of her death (if she's dead, which, again, I doubt) she was content.  She'd done something with her life.  Saved lives.  Felt alive.  A lot of us live 70 years and never experience that.  To her, she'd already done it.

Was her character bland?  Yes.  At times, I forgot she was on the show.  I thought her transition to a member of the team was sloppy and, honestly, unrealistic.  She took a handful of boxing lessons and suddenly was an equal on the team.  That was bizarre to me.  But she was friends with Nyssa and maybe it was in her blood....I don't know.  But I still think there's an arc there.  It's not a great arc, and it's not worthy of (supposedly, I honestly can't say) one of the better female superheroes.  But it is an arc.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm fine with the show. I enjoy it well enough. I can't say it's not a challenge to try to review the story someone set out  to tell rather than the story I wish they'd have told, but I generally manage. Laurel's character was always a problem; they did some neat stuff with her and I would have been happy to see her remain a regular, but I can't say that killing her off deprives us of a great love story or a great superhero character as rendered on this show.

The character ARROW wrote was very obviously created as a version of Rachel Dawes from the Nolan BATMAN movies during Season 1 when ARROW was trying (and failing) to be a Nolan pastiche, and that template was all wrong for being the Black Canary from the comics. She became the Black Canary of ARROW, but ultimately, she was Oliver's friend who knew him before he became a warrior and could still be friends with him even after he cheated on her with her sister. She was the person who could see how much Oliver had changed.

I sometime suspect that a lot of the shipping wars are actually fanned by Katie Cassidy herself, who would post clips or trailers on Twitter with text complaining about the Felicity/Oliver scenes or declare in interviews that Laurel would be Oliver's first and last girlfriend and that Felicity was a fling. Stepping back from the fan rage, all that strikes me as Cassidy deliberately provoking fans and pretending there's some great rivalry between her and Emily Bett Rickards -- a rivalry certain segments of fandom have adopted. In reality, the two women are friends.

My issues with ARROW's first season was the constant tonal dissonance -- the scripts were humourless and had Oliver grimly intoning about saving his city, but there were silly things like Oliver being bizarrely confident that his list of names was meaningful even though he had no information to accompany it. Then there was Oliver creating his HQ through what appeared to be one day of intensive sledgehammering. It was ridiculous.

Season 2 -4 have gotten much more fun. Season 2 was solid, but Season 3 crashed hard with Oliver's nonsensical resurrection and the League of Assassins having no clear motive, goal, purpose, philosophy or much of anything beyond wanting Oliver to join them because.

Season 4's been fine. I see all the issues Informant raises, but I don't feel them as severely; Felicity being upset because Oliver having a son was the latest in a long line of crazy revelations was pretty understandable to me. The idol being disabled by Vixen but suddenly stored in the base was absurd, but no moreso than Speedy being an oxycontin addict whose issues faded away after a few stern talks and a date with Roy or Oliver deciding to investigate his mother's involvement in the Undertaking by crashing into her office, threatening her once, fleeing when attacked and then refusing to get into it any further.

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I think that the criticisms mentioned above are based more on the show than the comics. The writers did have Laurel in a holding pattern for two years, because they wanted to save the Black Canary story for later. As a result, Laurel and Oliver couldn't relate to each other at all. By the time they reached a point where they could, the writers had decided on Felicity as the female lead, so Laurel was once again held down so that she wouldn't overpower Felicity. And by the time they told a story without Felicity in the way, they had already decided to kill Laurel.

The unkept promise is simply the character that they introduced. The producer, Marc Guggenheim, said that their goal was to get Oliver and Laurel to a good place and once that was done, they had nothing left to do with her. So essentially, they had us waiting for this moment for four seasons and then decided that it bored them, so they killed her. The whole arc was useless.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

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I've enjoyed Laurel's arc. Season 2 put her on a hilariously self-destructive path from becoming the Arrow's archnemesis to her totally justifiable rage at Sarah for faking her death and returning to a happy homecoming. Season 3 was neat where she sought to honour her sister and spare her father the pain. Throughout all of it, I liked how Laurel kept it prominent that Oliver was not born a driven, hardened crusader against evil but was a shallow and unfaithful little creep and how she didn't truly realize how much he'd changed.

I never found her interesting on her own, but she was an interesting figure in how she related to Oliver. I never felt like Laurel was less than what she needed to be; she was written as a civilian and an office worker, not a superhero, and when she became a superhero, it was in a somewhat misguided effort to keep her sister alive in her heart. I thought they did a nice job. I was quite relieved that the romance was dropped after Season 1 and Laurel had her own motivations and goals even if they were designed to bring complications to Oliver's life rather than Laurel's life. No complaints on Season 2 - 4 Laurel for me.

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Informant wrote:

Wally West... I'm more upset about them changing him in the comics than on TV. They really didn't have a choice about his race on the TV show, since Joe and Iris are black (though they could have played Iris as bi-racial, I supposed).

The comics changing Wally struck me as a mis-guided but well-intentioned effort. DC has given no official statements on why they got rid of Wally West and brought back Barry Allen, but the reasoning seems self-evident to me. Wally West was too complicated a character for film and TV.

Wally's origin: Barry Allen is a police scientist who was doused in chemicals struck by lightning that gave him superspeed and then Barry's nephew was struck in a similar accident and became Kid Flash and then Barry died and Wally became the successor to Barry as the third Flash because there was actually a first Flash and who the hell would bother with any of this crap for a TV show or a movie?

All adaptations either used Barry's origin with Wally West's name or just used Barry. DC, realizing that it was only a matter of time before the Flash became a TV show or film, decided to get in line with what would be the most widely seen version of the Flash -- a Flash who is Barry Allen, police scientist. CSI with superpowers. Barry was brought back to life. His absence since 1986 was compressed to a year or two and explained with a cover story of him having been in witness protection.

This left them in a quandary of what the hell to do with Wally. They attempted to simply background him: he's the Flash of Keystone City appearing in group shots and back-up stories while Barry is now the focus of the FLASH title in Central City. But due to deadline issues and the writer getting stretched too thin, the back-up stories were never written. Then, with a company-wide reboot, it was simpler to just make it so that Barry was the Flash, period. At this point, there was a wish to bring Wally back -- but to adjust the character so that he was defined not as being Kid Flash or the third Flash -- but simply as Barry's nephew, hence all the alterations.

In retrospect, it probably would have been best to just not use Wally at all or put him on Earth 2 with the post-reboot Jay Garrick and Alan Scott (the first Flash and Green Arrow). But it wasn't meant with malice. Repiloting is tough, man.

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Oh, I'm cool with bringing Barry back in the comics. Wally was my Flash, but I realize that Barry was important too.

I just strongly dislike them changing Wally's race along with his story. That isn't just altered history or a reboot, it is a new character being given an old name in order to sell him to the audience. I think that Wally deserved better than to essentially be killed off and then shrugged off as this new person took over his character.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

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When Cat Grant said that Harrison Ford was a philanderer trying to cheat on his wife with Cat, I had a brief moment where I feared SUPERGIRL's creators might get sued.

173 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-04-16 23:16:17)

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Legends of Tomorrow is fun, but this show is entirely predicated on the idea that everyone is dumb.  They land somewhere, everyone decides to leave for "reasons" and they get in a mess.  Curiosity is fine, but Rip Hunter needs to get things under control.  I mean, hell, they *kill someone* in the past in this episode.  He turns out to be a gang member who, I assume, never amounted to anything.   But they don't know that when it happens.  For as much as they know, that could be John F. Kennedy's relative. 

I know there has to be something for them to do week-to-week, but making the main catalyst for every episode "stupidity" is going to get tired soon. smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's my thought too.  Legends was fun at first, but it's turned out to largely be the same story every week with different set dressing.  I think that the writers and producers have spread themselves too thin and all of the shows are suffering for it.

That aside, I was amused that Heatwave chose the primary colors of green and yellow for his western costume.  Those are the colors of the classic Chronos costume in the comics (green shirt with yellow collar).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

I think that the writers and producers have spread themselves too thin and all of the shows are suffering for it.

Agreed.  I'm not really sure what the solution is, either.  There's been talk of Arrow only being five seasons.  So maybe Arrow ends next season.  I still think Legends should be / should've been an anthology mini-series.  Maybe even a companion piece to Arrow and Flash like Agent Carter is to Agents of Shield.  Three full series seems like a lot, and it doesn't seem like they're finding the writers to write all three effectively.

Thinking way outside the box, what if they merged all the shows into one big show called "Arrowverse"?  Sign everyone to contracts of X number of episodes, and every story takes place somewhere in the Arrowverse but every episode is essentially a crossover.  Maybe one episode is Oliver, Sara, and Cisco taking down a gang of criminals in Star City, while another has Rip, Barry, and Diggle taking down some time traveling metahuman.  Instead of 69 episodes of three shows, maybe you do 54 episodes of one smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Legends is fun, in a silly live action Saturday morning cartoon sort of way. They do it better than most of the Marvel movies at least. It still has the flavor of a comic book, if only one of the less serious books. The Flash still feels like one of the more serious, but fantastical books. Arrow... I don't even know what it's supposed to be anymore. It was supposed to be the serious show in the group, but it's not really that anymore.

Gotham is really good though. I'm loving that show.

Can we agree that when people say that Superman should be more fun and hopeful, the Supergirl method is still not the answer? The last couple of episodes were just weird. It's like they didn't know what to do with the story that they set up, so they had an entire episode of zombie people, where nothing really happens.

If that episode had happened on Smallville, you'd have had Kara, Cat and Maxwell in different places. Each would have had some part of the mission to accomplish. Each would have had some amount of danger. Instead, the three of them spent the episode talking while extras roamed aimlessly behind them, doing... stuff.

And the finale was just weak. Attack of the killer hangovers! The battle between four super powerful beings is confined to a dessert in the middle of nowhere, so there is no element of immediate danger to those people whose lives are in danger. They're just squinting and cringing, but that visual just lacked urgency. And the battle between Kara and Non came down to a staring contest.
Meanwhile, Clark still steals the show by being the most awkward elephant in the room ever. We see his feet, and we're told that he's just out of the game. Kara doesn't think twice about him on her tour of goodbyes (which actually kinda makes sense, since he's been a dick to her since she arrived).
Can someone tell me why they couldn't show Clark in the background, fighting Fort Rozz bad guys while Kara battled Non?

He taking the ship into space was poorly handled. Having Alex suddenly know how to fly a kryptonian ship (is she even a normal Earth pilot?) was silly.

As was the "hope" video message from Supergirl to the world. It just made no sense. And this is what you get when you try to write Superman/Supergirl according to the image of what they're supposed to be, rather than with a sense of telling an honest story and thinking about the characters as you would anyone else.

At the very least, they should have shown Ft. Rozz drifting away from Earth, rather than just sitting there in space.

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When I saw the fireball coming down at the end of the episode, I really thought it was Fort Rozz falling back to earth because she didn't fly it far enough away; I started laughing at that one.

Supergirl really seems like it's written for kids; I don't know if that was their intention, but it's what they accomplished.   On that note, I have an idea what was in the Kryptonian ship in the cliffhanger.   I place my bet it's either Krypto the super dog or Supergirl's classic pet Streaky the super cat.  That would fit with the tone they've set, and kids would probably love it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Only we don't get to see Krypto directly. They just show his collar and then have him zoom off to join Superman. But every so often, Kara comes home to find her shoes chewed up, letting her know that he is still out there and thinks she is swell. smile

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I don't know, I don't feel like its any more "for kids" than Flash.  I feel like it's about the same level of fun/goofy as Flash.  Definitely not as serious as Arrow used to be, but I don't think it's too silly or stupid.

I absolutely agree that they need to do something about Clark.  Superman is too much of a distraction, and they can't stay in this weird zone where he's on the show but he's not.  It's cool that he's out there, but if they aren't going to use him, they need to send him away or something.  They're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and it doesn't work.

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The problems with Supergirl is that the writers have no sense of who the character is. They're writing her as Clark, which doesn't work. And they don't know how to introduce drama or tension for the character, so it always seem forced and false. Her sitting at an old news desk, basically asking people to clap is they believe, was ridiculous.

They seem to have to use this government agency, which doesn't fit well into the series. So we have a bunch of military scenes in this cave, and it doesn't seem remotely realistic. Especially putting Martian Manhunter in charge of the DEO again.

They don't know what to do with the supporting characters. Alex is a generic super chick who can do whatever the plot needs that week. None of the characters have strong personalities or purpose.

On The Flash, there is a clear sense of character. Cisco and Barry are both smart, but their dialogue couldn't be swapped without anyone noticing. Iris and Caitlin couldn't be swapped. Harry and Eobard can't even be swapped! dd to that a general sense of purpose in the writing. Episodes where they're just trying to waste time before the next big event stand out because there is a natural flow that is interrupted. Whereas with Supergirl, I get the sense that nobody has a clue what they're doing. The finale pretty much cemented that belief.

Supergirl does feel like a kid's show, because there is no great effort put into making it. The character is being written as a feminist icon, surrounded by feminists, doing feminist things, but it's all just fluff.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of