Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So the head of the CW thinks that Supergirl will be a big hit for them. Maybe their #2 show. I'm just wondering how realistic that is. On the one hand, it comes with an audience from a bigger network. Even losing viewers, it should still have a following.

On the other hand, the show really isn't good. Next to The Flash or even Legends, its weakness will show more. The casting continues to be pretty horrible (I can't get over Jimmy being older than Clark). And to top it off, part of the press campaign seems to include having people connected to the show bash the big screen Superman, played by Henry Cavill. It seems petty and foolish, considering that these are people from a show that failed on CBS and had to aim smaller. It is about a month away and I'm not sure that I've seen any reason to believe that the show is turning things around or trying to he better.

If Supergirl stays exactly as good as it was before, can we really expect it to do better than The Flash, Legends, Arrow or Supernatural?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://tvline.com/2016/09/12/supergirl- … ere-photos

I just don't see it. He looks more like Superboy than a mature, experienced Superman. And the costume is horrible.

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363 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-09-12 16:07:43)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't love the costume, but I think he looks fine as Superman. 

Remember, you hated Cavill at first too wink

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I hated the idea of a British Superman. I still think it's a bit like an American James Bond. Plus it was around the same time as those headlines about Superman renouncing his American citizenship, so it seemed to be going in a bad direction. But he did a good job and he looks the part.

I don't hate Tyler Hoechlin as an actor, but he is wrong for this. His age is completely wrong. His build is wrong, and made worse by the casting of Jimmy Olsen. And the suit is just poorly made. The cape looks plastic. The seams just make it look like he is a kid wearing Dad's super suit. Also, the edges of the padding are visible in those shots.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The ratings needed to be successful on CW are much lower than what's needed on CBS due to CW having much lower advertising rates and budgets; that's why SMALLVILLE had fewer viewers than COMMUNITY and was considered a hit.

As for the costume -- I'll wait to see it in motion. I don't love the yellow cape clips, but it might look good when it's under the right lighting.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's true that they don't need amazing ratings on the CW, but just in terms of CW shows, do we expect Supergirl to be at the top of the rating list? I imagine that there will be a nice premiere, with people who never watched the show testing it out or some who left the show testing to see if CBS was the problem. But if the show is only as good as last year, will it beat The Flash, Arrow, Legends, Supernatural, etc?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

SUPERGIRL's Season 1 had 6 million viewers. That's double the viewership of THE FLASH's Season 2 finale. Assuming a one-third drop as fewer people watch CW and that's still beating THE FLASH.

I think SUPERGIRL is not really suited to being reviewed the same way one reviews a Marvel Netflix show or BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN. SUPERGIRL is a family show. Parents watch it together with their children.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, but it will now be sitting on the same shelf as The Flash. Great characters, great cast, high quality. They will need to seriously step up their game if they don't want to look like a Saturday morning series.

Being a family show doesn't mean that it needs to be crappy. Or that it should be written toward five year old girls alone. Very young kids can't even read the comics that these shows are based on.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I just finished watching the season 1 finale of Arrow, so I'm halfway through the series. I'm not sure that I'll be totally finished by the time season 3 starts on October 5, but I should be a good way through the second season at least.

I have to say, the first season finale was really solid. It was a good culmination of what had come before it. It felt organic and honest (aside from the casting of Barrowman... I never liked him in this role). The death of Tommy was really an emotional moment. The island flashbacks were really true to the concept of the island in the first place. I remember why I actually enjoyed watching this show when it first aired!

I hope season 3 is as good as season 1... when season 3 premieres... October 5th.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The most important thing to note is that the premiere will be directed by James Bamford, a man who made his career as a stuntman and stunt coordinator but whose real claim to fame, as we all know, is that he played Quinn Mallory. In "The Unstuck Man." In the teaser. Seen only from behind at a distance. That's what really matters.

"Gotta say, I respect ireactions' ability to bring any conversation back to SLIDERS."
— Slider_Quinn21

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wow.  He's moved his way up in this world.

"Go!  Go!"

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I hope season 3 is as good as season 1... when season 3 premieres... October 5th.


Season 5, maybe?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

He's saying that seasons 3 and 4 didn't happen because he hates them smile

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/38232 … n#/slide/1

In this limited scope, there's not a huge difference in the look of season 2 vs season 1.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Why is everyone talking about seasons that never existed? I know there has been a bit of a delay between seasons, and the fanfic machine went a little crazy, but c'mon. Season 3 premieres on October 5!


As for Supergirl... I think people overstated the trouble with matching the look of the show. While Catco has big windows overlooking the city, it is still an indoor set, with fake lighting. Same with the DEO and Kara's apartment. Then we have establishing shots of the city, which can also be used for flying shots, and these are going to be the same. Filming on the street can be helped by using lighting techniques and coloring techniques in post. If The X-Files can make Vancouver look like a desert in New Mexico, I'm sure they can make a cloudy day look sunny.


I rewatched the episode with the Flash last night, because I thought it would be the least offensive way of dipping my toe back in. And yeah, there were some fun moments, but there were some parts of that episode that were just unbecoming of a primetime series on a major network. Really poorly done. I hope the Vancouver crew is better.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Even if they're leaving Kara in her own Earth, I don't know why they don't move her to a different city.  National City doesn't provide them anything interesting, and it'd explain why certain people (like Cat) aren't always there.  They could move Kara to, say, Coast City and keep her there if anything ever happens to move her to the Arrowverse.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There are a lot of things that they should be doing for this show, but it doesn't look like they're doing any of them.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Stephen Amell just posted a new trailer on his Facebook page. I have to say, season 3 is looking like it could be really good. I know that I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I kinda am.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's been a couple years since they've done the show.  It might take them an episode or two for them to get back into rhythm.

(Did I do that correctly?)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

True. Hopefully they'll get back to it quickly.

And yes... Just keep smiling and keep your eyes straight ahead and everything will be just fine.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Flashpoint spoilers....

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Well, I thought it was an interesting episode, but I feel like they held back.  With four shows on at the same time, I think they really could've had fun with Flashpoint.  I think they would've had to have been creative with it, but it could've been cool to have an entire episode of Arrow that took place in the Flashpoint universe (like the entire episodes that took place in the Other Side universe on Fringe or the episodes that took place in the Mirror Universe on DS9/ENT.

I get why they didn't - it's not fair to viewers of Arrow to force them to understand a plotline from Flash.  But I think they could've done it a different way.  Maybe the last two minutes of Arrow's season finale are used to set it up.  Maybe show a bit from the Flash finale and then show Oliver changing into a darker version of himself.  I don't think it'd take much explanation.

Maybe they even incorporate the Legends premiere into it.  They fix stuff like that, after all.  Flashpoint is what sets up the Legion of Doom. 

Kara is insulated from the changes, but they could've used Flashpoint to bring her into the universe.  Instead, there might be some minor ripples but it's basically already fixed.  And even then, I don't think they did that many changes.  They even had most of them working as a team by the end of the episode.  I don't even feel like the Joe stuff was justified or his "redemption" earned.  It felt rushed so that it didn't have to impact the other shows.

I understood why they tried to keep it contained, but I feel like they really missed their chance to do something cool.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The Flash:

It was an interesting episode. Obviously, if they didn't have to worry about Arrow premiering the next day, or Legends coming on next week, maybe they could have spent two or three episodes on that storyline. As it was, it was rushed. Why was Joe an alcoholic? Why was Caitlin an eye doctor? Where was Ronnie? Why was this universe "wrong" and tearing apart the timeline when it is actually the timeline that was supposed to exist in the first place (had Eobard not gone back in time to change things)?

It would have been fun to see Barry look for Oliver or Felicity for help. Maybe without Barry around, Oliver's identity was discovered by the public years ago (no mask). There are fun little things to think about there. But oh well.

As it was... It was fun. It was okay. It wasn't great. And I'm curious to see how much of what we know has changed, and how many of those changes are worth it. Fringe took a big, big risk when they altered the timeline and too Peter out of it. Some people never liked the way things turned out (though I was fine with it, because it was done well).

I guess we'll see.



Arrow:

First of all, why was everyone calling Diggle "John"? It was weird. For two seasons, he was "Diggle" or "Digg" and now we time jump two years and he's suddenly "John"? Are they trying to set up the Green Lantern thing? I don't get it.

There were problems with the episode. The way certain scenes were staged didn't sell the point of what they were trying to do (new bad guy taking out the dirty cops, for example). It wasn't perfect, for sure.

That said, it was a pretty nice step up from the sloppy fan films that we've been putting up with since the show went on hiatus two years ago. Oliver killing people makes sense. It just does. And when he wasn't doing everything in his power to stop murderers, he looked like a fool. As I was watching Thea get upset, I made the comment that Laurel would still be alive if Oliver had taken out Damien earlier (and also if he hadn't super-glued the totem back together). Then Oliver said the same thing. For the first time in years, we were on the same page. When you're fighting a war, you can't hold back.

Having less people in the hideout was kinda refreshing. It allowed Oliver to shine when he was fighting bad guys, because they didn't have to allow ten other characters to look good. I hope the Potential Slayers coming onto the scene don't ruin that. I really liked Oliver this week. His witty remarks were cool.

I liked having Felicity back as a sidekick, without emotional drama (as we've seen in those fan film that I mentioned before). I liked Thea as supportive, but outside of the fighting (for the most part). I liked the human bad guys.

I hated Felicity staying in Oliver's apartment (which he kinda stole from Thea). What's with that? In all of those fan films, she walked out on him. Why does she get to stay in the place that he lived in before they got together?!


Laurel's final words were interesting. It's weird, because I know that the new girl will be Artemis, not a Canary... and Laurel knew that White Canary was still out there somewhere. So it was a little bit of an awkward line. Unless they're planning to make Curtis, like... Blacker Canary. I never got why they named him Curtis Holt and not Michael Holt, who was Mr. Terrific in the comics. Are we going to get yet another sibling rising from the grave?

I'm curious to see how/if Flashpoint changed anything. Could Huntress come back? Could Tommy be out there? (probably not, since Oliver only took killing off of the table because of him and that's still a thing)

I guess we'll find out. I just hope that they don't retcon Diggle's family out of the picture or anything like that.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ARROW was good. I can't really quibble with Oliver reverting to killing villains. As the Professor would say, "This is an invading soldier, not a social worker." I think it would be inappropriate for Supergirl or the Flash to outright execute villains (although some of the Flash's countermeasures in Season 2 were lethal in that negating the villains' powers would kill them). But Oliver isn't a superhuman character and it's silly to think he could be excused from kill or be killed situations; he's never had that kind of power.

THE FLASH -- it's nice that you guys were so forgiving. I thought it was awful. Clearly, the writers set up an amazing Season 2 cliffhanger full of possibilities only to find that their success with the CW franchise and SUPERGIRL meant limiting their follow-up to a single episode. Maybe it should have been a two-parter aired on one night? Either way, it didn't work; there was too much material, too many unjustified and abrupt decisions, and too little time spent explaining why this unaltered, original timeline is somehow, as Informant noted, the 'wrong' timeline.

The ending also made no sense and sadly fell into every single one of Informant's warnings about how badly it could go if the show used FLASHPOINT to justify continuity changes without a clear chain of logic and reason. The restored, Thawne-altered timeline is different for no reason; Nora Allen living for an additional 30 seconds has somehow resulted in the present being changed with Iris being far away? And it's obviously not the only change.

I don't think it's a spoiler at this point to say that -- obviously -- SUPERGIRL is now a part of the ARROW and FLASH universe. There's no way they would be doing regular crossovers with ARROW and LEGENDS and THE FLASH if Supergirl had to drop in from a parallel universe every time or vice versa. So, for whatever reason, Nora Allen's extended half a minute of life brought Supergirl into Barry and Oliver's universe. There is no justification for this whatsoever in the premiere and given what we've seen onscreen, I don't think there can be aside from vague technobabble rationalization.

It was kind of palnful to watch. We all theorized how THE FLASH could easily fall into many narrative traps and logical stumbles in achieving its endgame and it looks like it's toppled headfirst into every single one.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

They shouldn't have jumped ahead three months. They could have done a few episodes that spanned those three months. In doing this, they could have lined up with the other shows in time for the crossovers, but explored their idea more fully.

I read one of the Supergirl's in an interview the other day, and they suggested that the Arrow and Supergirl universes haven't merged. Kara will be crossing over, but her universe will remain as it is. Which is okay with me, because Supergirl just doesn't fit this universe that they've created.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Sorry, I made a mistake. I saw a bunch of preview clips where Oliver and Barry were in the Arrowcave with Kara and J'onn, so I thought the universes had merged. This interview with Andrew Kreisberg confirms that Informant's correct; the universes aren't merging.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/10/07/su … w-spoilers

I dunno. I assumed they would merge the realities if only to facilitate guest-appearances more readily, but I guess they're not doing that. Interestingly, Kreisberg confirms that because SUPERGIRL didn't get the tax credit they'd expected, the latter half of SUPERGIRL's first season had serious budget problems, which explains a lot of the visual problems they were having in the FLASH crossover.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, it's like we said a few months ago - we put more thought into it than they did.  It's just stupid that they have this shared universe, and they aren't even taking advantage of it.

- Why Joe was an alcoholic - I was thinking maybe Thawne was going to escape and kill Joe's wife.  I don't know why he'd do that, but it'd make more sense than the *whatever* reason they gave.

- I thought maybe they were going to go the LOST route where people are "awoken" when Barry interacted with them.  If that's the way they did it, it was very unclear.

- Why would Barry still be a forensic scientist in the Flashpoint universe?  He studied science to try and clear his dad.  And depending on how time travel works, why does he still have his powers?  Wouldn't his powers fade, not his memories?

- Doesn't Barry *love* being the Flash??  He seems happy not to have to be the Flash, but why would he want to give that up???

A lot stayed the same (Wally getting powers, Barry keeping his powers, Barry staying at the police force) that shouldn't, and some stuff changed that I don't think should've.

- Was Caitlin recruited by Wells/Thawne?  Has she ever mentioned an interest in being a pediatric eye doctor?
- If Cisco had the ability to be a tech billionaire, why wasn't he in the main universe?  Did Wells/Thawne hold him back?
- What happened to Harrison Wells?

At the end of the day, they could've had *so much* fun with this.  Heck, maybe you start the year with a 3-way crossover, even if you don't want this to be the reason Supergirl joins.  Legends is affected because Stein can't be Firestorm with no particle accelerator explosion.  Oliver would have to be different.  We could've seen Robert Queen as a dark Arrow.  Maybe Wally works openly as the Flash for the government or something.  They needed to give us something, but they gave us a watered down version of Earth 2.  Very watered down.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I really like THE FLASH. But it has to be said that it's a formula-driven show. It operates on having a metahuman attack the city and Team Flash working together to save the day. This episode stepped outside the formula and the writers simply weren't up to the task of executing it with anything resembling wit, insight or emotion. In addition to the clumsy and witless logic that Informant's already observed, Barry's decision to reverse time is based on Wally getting injured -- as though Wally's street-racing and crimefighting hobbies in the original timeline weren't equally dangerous.

And if SUPERGIRL isn't merging with the ARROWverse -- then the best thing to do is shrug, accept that the season premiere was a massive disapointment and then move on.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My concern now is that whatever they do next will damage what has been built up over the first two seasons. The show's strength was great character relationships. If they alter that, it could make things awkward and alienate the audience.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, I finally watched Arrow.

I think "not killing" should always be an issue for Oliver, and I don't think he should ever have a policy on it.  Should he go around executing criminals like he did in Season One?  No.  Because I don't think Oliver should be the Punisher - he needs to at least try to be better than the people he's fighting.

But he also shouldn't have a "no killing" rule because it's impractical.  Sometimes, he's going to need to use lethal force to save someone.  Sometimes, the choice is going to be between taking a life and losing a friend.  In battle, those choices are made all the time.  I think they went a little too far in the wrong direction (where Oliver is just killing people), but this might end up finally leading to Oliver in the right balance.  Because Oliver shouldn't be killing low-level thugs who are no match for him (like the guy who was interrogating him while he was in the chair).  But Oliver also shouldn't hesitate to kill people like Darhk who are incredibly dangerous.

We'll see. 

I liked his character too.  He wants to save the city as mayor, but it's not really practical.  Being the Green Arrow is where he can make the most difference.  And I liked that he wanted to keep people from getting hurt, but I thought his stubbornness was odd.  He had a line where he said he didn't want to use a team unless it was with people like Thea and Laurel....but neither of them were  fighters until they were trained.  Wild Dog and the other vigilantes are probably more prepared for training than Thea and Laurel ever were.

I did like that he beat up a couple of the thugs/policemen trying kidnap him until he realized the cameras were on him.  I also loved seeing some of the more noticeable parts of Vancouver.  It's been fun watching shows like that since I visited there last year.  I'm still kicking myself for not watching a Flash scene getting filmed when it was right down the street for me (on a night where I had nothing planned.)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't object to Oliver killing his kidnapper? I think people who take innocents hostage at gunpoint have pretty much given up any right to claim unfair treatment if it turns out the person they kidnapped is inclined to take it personally. At the same time, I don't know if I'd want Oliver to be executing people and I think even Oliver would be uncomfortable making that his first means. However, it did remind me of a recent BATGIRL comic where Commissioner Gordon says the only reason he tolerates Batman and his friends operating, the only reason he's been able to keep the police off their backs, is because they don't kill. And once they start doing that, the police can no longer turn a blind eye to vigilantism.

I dunno, maybe Felicity can whip up a Google Form survey to quickly determine whether or not a villain goes into the spare or slaughter columns with questions for who might be rehabilitated or safely incarcerated and who might be too far gone and too homicidal to leave alive.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I think your part about Gordon is the problem.  Take the kidnapper, for example.  These shows don't show it, but there's going to have to be an investigation into that guy's death.  In the official report, it'd have to say that he was killed by the Green Arrow.  The kill could be justified - officers are forced to kill suspects all the time (*not* looking to get political on this issue smile ) but the difference is that those officers have to give detailed explanations for how that person died.  There, presumably, needs to be some sort of evidence to prove that the killing was justified.

For deaths that Oliver is responsible for, there's no follow-up.  Oliver isn't giving a detailed statement.  So the police, most of the time, I'd assume, won't be able to tell the difference between a guy Oliver shot to save Thea and a guy Oliver just walked in and murdered.  I think that's the primary reason for Oliver's "no kill" policy.  He went from a guy the police were always looking to catch to a guy that the police were willing to work alongside.

The reason why I give the example of the kidnappers is that he's a guy who was no match for Oliver.  Oliver had already beaten him when Oliver killed him.  The fight was over.  His justification for the murder wasn't the fact that he was a dangerous man - it was that he knew that Oliver could defend himself (and I'm not even sure that was enough for anyone to put two and two together that he was the Green Arrow).

It's the issue I see with any hero killing.  Batman killing the Joker is justified to me because he's a psychopath who will end up doing much worse if he's allowed to live.  Killer Croc is an even match for Batman, and if Batman needs to put him down to win a fight, then it's fine.  It's why I was okay with Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel. 

But a low-level thug should be taken care of and incapacitated if no one else is in danger.  Otherwise, I think it goes from necessary to excessive.  I know that thug could grow up to be a Joker or a Captain Cold or a Lex Luthor, but I don't think that's a decision that Oliver (or Felicity's form) can make in the moment.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Question, re: Clark/Kara.  When there's a major space launch or event that they might have to immediately get called to rescue....why aren't they more prepared?  Kara was super excited to watch the launch of the Venture, and it doesn't seem like Clark was even paying attention to it.  You'd think either of them (or both) would've been suited up and ready to go...just in case.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl -

The move from LA to Vancouver was noticeable, but I didn't feel like there was really any drop in quality from a CBS to CW show.  I thought it was fun with a lot of potentially cool stuff set up.  I thought Superman was fun but not overpowering in the episode.

And Superman....smiled.

394 (edited by Informant 2016-10-10 23:05:53)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like any of the show's real problems were dealt with. The move from LA to Vancouver is fine. The show looks fine. But the whole thing is still under-cooked.

First of all, Clark. Yes, he smiled. Not surprising since this is just a rehash of the same thing we've been watching the character do for the past 80 years or whatever. He's "aw gosh" and fun and light, which would be fine if it were in context of making him a real character. Smallville's Clark Kent was a Kansas boy, with down-home values, whose favorite hangout was a barn. Yet, they (mostly Tom Welling) managed to make him relatable. He had layers. He was too good to be a real person most of the time, but he wasn't a cardboard cutout of a cartoon character either.
The Supergirl version is, much like the rest of the show, flat. Bland. Goofy. Cartoonish. And I still have to say, horribly miscast. It's like they waned to hire someone who wouldn't make Supergirl look tiny, but in doing so, they cast someone who makes Superman look like Superboy.

People make fun of Cavill's Superman, but the thing I love about that interpretation is that the writers broke down the character and developed him as though he were any other character in a film. Who he is can be traced back to where he comes from and how he was raised. The flaw in so many Superman incarnations is that the writers base their whole approach on old lunchboxes. When I look at these versions, I don't see me. I don't see the best of humanity.

But Clark is just a guest star. This is Kara's show. So, if they want to make him the cartoon version of Superman, fine. But they should at least invest in the real development of her character. And they don't. They don't even base her on Supergirl lunchboxes, they base her on old, rusted, smelly Superman lunchboxes. Kara/Supergirl is nothing. There is nobody there, except a shadow of Superman. And every time they have a chance to make her more than that, they ignore it. At times, she is way, way too childlike. This chick watched her entire plant blow up. She lost everything she ever knew or loved. She had to rebuild her life on an alien world from scratch, learning the language and learning how to blend in, all while mourning for her entire civilization.

Barry Allen lost *one* person.

For me, everything comes down to character. And I'm fine with making her an optimist. She watches her world blow up, but she survived. She can ride high on that. But none of her history is apparent, so why bother having it there in the first place? Why give her a backstory that even Clark can't wrap his mind around? I hate it when writers ignore the story, just so they can force their will on the characters. And there is a difference between having characters who are fun and optimistic, and having characters who act like their work day should include recess and nap time.

Plot...

There wasn't much to talk about. Kara's sudden shift away from Jimmy didn't make sense, but they never really made sense in the first place. The James character feels really unnecessary at this point. And with Cat going away, I'm not sure that I see the point in keeping the Catco element at all.

Winn working with Alex makes sense (though I don't like the military setting for Supergirl, but whatever). But if they're going to have Luthor Corp as a recurring element on the show, they need to teach Jeremy Jordan the difference between the words "Corp" and "Corps". Luthor has a corporation, not a military branch.

It seems like they're really digging in deep with the show's flaws. And as time goes on, they're just becoming more pronounced. I was hoping that at least the production side would seem more organized, but it doesn't. We have Kara changing outfits three times in ten seconds, and then the editing made it seem like she took five minutes to get into her Supergirl costume.

I really don't think that the L Corp building would be cleared for normal business. I mean, it didn't fall down, which is a victory, but I wouldn't really call that the end of the story.

The drama between J'onn and Clark was so weird and stupid. Clark is pissy about the DEO having a weapon that could kill a kryptonian? So? A few hours earlier, Supergirl was battling an army of bad kryptonians! Not to mention the fact that every person in the DEO (including Clark) had the means to kill any human in the place. Why is it offensive to have a weapon against an alien threat, but just good common sense to have a weapon that would work on any normal person?

The whole thing was just frustrating. I hope they don't cross over too much.


On a lighter note, Brenda Strong is on the show now. She seems to be popping up everywhere now. Good for her! I actually met her... it was awkward.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, to address some of your concerns:

- I don't know why we'd expect a guest star on a CW to show a great depth of character in one episode.  To compare Man of Steel's Henry Cavill to Superman in Supergirl is insulting to both mediums.  Of course Clark in MoS is a deeper, more structured character.  He'd absolutely have to be.  And while I agree that he's a bit cartoonish, I think that's absolutely what they were going for.  He's a fun Superman.  He's got things figured out, and he's content with it.  He's a "perfect" character that our heroine is supposed to be achieving to be.  And since he's not going to be a regular on the show (at least, not that I'm aware of), I think his role in the show is fine.

(Side note: I don't want this to turn into another psychoanalysis of Superman, but I still say Superman in this showed more personality with his one wink than he did in both movies of the DCCU.  Compare the wink to the crestfallen look he gives the people at the fire.  In both cases, Superman has saved the day - why not have some fun with it?  It's like Supergirl's Superman gets an (what I would think is a realistic) adrenaline boost from flying around, and Snyder's Superman gets a boost of painkillers.  Again, they probably went too far in this one, but there's a happy medium where a character can be layered and still be allowed to have fun).

I hated the James/Kara relationship, and I'm glad they're moving away from it.  I don't like this version of Jimmy - I think he's miscast (and not because he's black - because he's a freakin' male model.  Can they do a body-swap of James and Curtis?  I think Curtis' actor would play a better Jimmy Olsen).

The kryptonite thing is weird because it's been established in many versions of Superman that he *wants* people to have kryptonite in case he goes crazy.  It's possible that this version of Superman has never been affected by magic or red Kryptonite so maybe he's never lost control.  And I get that there's a difference between giving Batman a sliver of kryptonite and the DEO having a cache of weapons.  So while I think J'onn could've been a little bit more proactive about ensuring Superman that the weapons are safe, I think Clark was flipping out just a bit too much.

Oh and was that the first official use of "Gotham" in the Arrowverse?  I know they've mentioned Bludhaven a few times, but I wasn't sure if Gotham was ever actually referenced.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm not opposed to a happier Clark. I think that there is room for different takes on the character. I don't see the DCEU version as being as broody and dark as you see him (he was smiling at the girl in Mexico when he saved her, and then frowned when he turned and watched the building still on fire), but he is a more serious take on the character. I don't expect the TV version to be like that, because the show aims for a lighter tone. However, the writers don't know how to create real, layered characters. Clark and Kara seem to come from a world where people are born with traumatic brain injury. Their smiling and winking and jumping up and down isn't looking like optimism to me, it's looking awkward and fake.

To contrast, Barry Allen is always smiling. He's always joking around with the people he's close to. He enjoys being the Flash. He is a light and fun character, but he isn't acting like an idiot. On top of that, the childhood trauma echoes through his present life. It doesn't weigh the show down, but it is always there.

These criticisms go for Clark and Kara both. I just don't get why they have to take characters with so much to offer, and reduce them to bubbly little high school kids. This series reminds me of the old Superman movie in a lot of ways. It's goofy. It's uneven. It's miscast when it comes to many characters. The writers aren't taking it seriously. They're just regurgitating their idea of what we've already seen before. They're not creating, they're trying to mimic, and they're failing. Superman and Supergirl aren't about smiles and winks. Above all, they're about heart. And that is where this show fails, and Cavill succeeds.

It's the same old problem that I've always had with the character. He is potentially a great, rich character. But too many writers are hung up on Christopher Reeve, which was a bad take on the character. We have moved past that in so many ways, both on Smallville and in the movies, and yet certain writers keep going back to that low point.

Basically, they're writing him like a MCU character. smile


So yeah, it turned into a psychoanalysis. But I don't think this is about Superman or Supergirl so much as examining the writers of the show. They're just being lazy and not doing the work.


Yeah, I think this was the first time that we got a Gotham reference. Though technically, I don't know if this is the Arrowverse. It's a different universe!

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

This week's Flash pissed me off a little.

I get that they wanted to give Barry a hard lesson and make him regret what they did. Killing Cisco's brother did that, without his being directly responsible. However, what happened to baby Sara... That is messed up. Barry erased Diggle's baby! As a viewer, I'm not cool with that. And he seemed to get over it pretty quickly.

This whole storyline is destabilizing something that worked really well. It is uncomfortable to watch. So, Barry is in this new timeline. Does that mean that the others ceased to exist? Or does Sara still exist out there somewhere? And if she does... We are just ditching the other timeline and following the new one on all of the show's?


Honestly, it would have been funny if Barry erased most of the last two years of Arrow. But why the baby?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, what's weird is that we're now in a third timeline.  There's the timeline where Barry became the Flash when he was older (not seen), the Season 1-2 Flash timeline where Thawne messed with everything, and now this new Flashpoint timeline.  And while they did a lot to show that things *mostly* happened the way that they were supposed to (they still took down Zoom, Reverse Flash, etc), there are still quite a few differences too. 

We're now in Fringe season 4 territory (which doesn't make me feel better) where we aren't really watching the same characters we've been watching this whole time.  Which does bother me.  I get making Barry pay for his mistakes, and hopefully this convinces him to stop time traveling.  But I thought this was a lesson Barry had learned already.  It's what makes Flashpoint so frustrating....Barry has *just* come to terms with his mother's death before he went back and saved her.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, they completely resolved Barry's issues with his mother's death... and then they had him go back and change it. It was a very strange and unnecessary move.

Technically, we're probably on timeline 8 or 9 by now. The original, the Eobard (our Prime), Central City crushed under a big wave, Central City not crushed under a wave, Pied Piper is good now, everyone gets blown up by Vandal Savage, everyone survives Vandal Savage, Barry saves his mother, Barry tries to repair the timeline.

None of this is counting Legends of Tomorrow.

I liked Fringe. When they did this, it was huge and it was risky, but they pulled it off, and the show was still good. The problem here is that Barry's selfish actions didn't just result in the death of Dante, it resulted in erasing baby Sara from existence. That is something that I really don't think was necessary, because unless the speed force steps in and fixes what Barry has broken, he essentially killed a baby.

And the way they've explained this situation only confuses matters. If Barry creates new branches in the timeline, the others should all still exist. But that doesn't seem to be the way they want to play this. They want to play it as irreparable damage, so his little diagram wasn't accurate. It's not a branching off, it's more like recording over an old tape (one which Cisco should still be able to see, by the way).

I'm not even clear on when the show takes place right now. Did Barry return to the time he left, or did he return to three months later?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I'm not even clear on when the show takes place right now. Did Barry return to the time he left, or did he return to three months later?

The show strongly implied he returned to the instant he originally left.  I think Joe and Wally were still celebrating defeating Zoom when he found out Iris was gone in the premiere.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's the impression that I got, but we are going to need a time jump at some point then, because of the crossovers.

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402 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2016-10-12 12:05:38)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

There needs to be some consistency on how time works on these shows.  I don't think Supergirl did much of a time jump between seasons one and two, but Arrow definitely did.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah. Though with Supergirl, I think that would be the least of their problems. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

http://tvline.com/2016/10/12/supergirl- … mes-olsen/

I may just have to stop watching this show. They didn't actually want Jimmy Olsen on the show, so why did they name this character Jimmy Olsen?

And did they learn nothing from Diggle's helmet?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Arrow --

Maybe it is because I watched seasons 1 and 2 over the break and I'm not coming off of season 4, but this season feels pretty right so far. Felicity is back to normal, finally. I like her with the new guy. Oliver is kicking ass again and only gets beaten when he wants to. The trainees aren't dominating the show. Thea and Quentin are being put to good use.

I don't know where the Diggle story is going. Honestly, the "evil army men" trope is a bit stale and disrespectful at this point, but it isn't too bad story-wise. I just want him to come home and find a way to get Sara back. It'd be weird if he remembered her for some reason, though I imagine that Barry wouldn't survive that situation.

So far so good.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I may just have to stop watching this show. They didn't actually want Jimmy Olsen on the show, so why did they name this character Jimmy Olsen?

To be fair, they named him "James Olsen"

I think he needs to be killed off.  I like Mehcad Brooks as an actor, but he has zero chemistry with Melissa Benoist.  And they clearly don't know what to do with his character.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Supergirl
I'm sorry Informant didn't like it, that is unfortunate. I thought the Season 2 premiere was terrific. I can't deny that Informant's right about Kara's characterization. The Season 1 characterization seemed oddly indecisive, almost like they were writing a teenaged Kara Danvers but then abruptly altered her to being in her late 20s without making the character any more mature. However, Melissa Benoist's performance has always been so endearing, so engagingly sincere and sweet -- so it works for me.

The premiere had a very interesting approach, casting a slightly critical eye on Season 1 with Cat Grant noting that Kara has been sheltering herself in the persona of a nervous office assistant with a hopeless crush on Jimmy. Slider_Quinn21's right to say that the sudden curtailment of the Kara/Jimmy romance makes no sense, but I can see what the writers were aiming for. They're trying to say that Kara being an anxiety-ridden, lovesick wreck was a rut she'd fallen into and gotten stuck in, but the Season 1 finale and a year of success as Supergirl means she's broken free, hence her lack of interest in Jimmy.

The budget seemed as lavish as the CBS funded version of SUPERGIRL; aerial flights and fights, extensive CG sequences with doubling and collapsing buildings and drones and helicopters and explosions. I wonder if the Vancouver tax credit and a lower licensing fee is being matched with a budget higher than what THE FLASH gets -- or if we're going to get a bunch of bottle episodes later on. ANGEL in Season 5 opened with a massive series of action sequences and Joss Whedon grimly observed in the commentary that Season 5's reduced budget meant the premiere had crippled many subsequent episodes.

I was happy with Superman representing the ideal version of Kara Danvers that she never quite manages to equal. That said, Superman's hostility towards J'onn was, as Slider_Quinn21 puts it, nonsensical. There's also the fact that Superman is visibly at ease and cheerful in the DEO and happily shaking hands with every staffer there.

It would make more sense if Superman's anger towards J'onn was that J'onn had secretly hidden the Kryptonite, told Superman it was all destroyed and been preparing ways to kill Superman in case he ever became an enemy, if J'onn's actions had been a betrayal of friendship and trust. Instead, the script inexplicably has Superman being displeased that the DEO has anti-Kryptonian weaponry when, as you guys noted, it was absolutely necessary. The dialogue as scripted is incomprehensible and it's only thanks to Tyler Hoechlin's charismatic performance that it doesn't sink the character completely.

Hoechlin also effortlessly sells the Clark Kent/Superman divide. As Clark, he's slightly muted and laid back, friendly and a little overwhelmed. As Superman, he has a natural air of authority and good-heartedness that instantly wins people over. The Superman costume looks good except in close shoulder-level shots, at which point the yellow cape clips are jarringly out of place against the red and the blue. The cape buckles on the top of the cape add a displeasing unevenness to what should be a smoothly flowing garment, but on the whole, the costume works in motion and films better than it photographs. I understand the desire to add some accent colour to the costume, but it adds needless clutter. I'd lose the yellow outside of the S and shift the clips to under the cape.

I am very glad Winn is working for the DEO; with Jimmy at Catco, Winn always seemed superfluous -- and I'm eager to see what kind of relationship he'll have with Alex. I'm relieved that Chyler Leigh remains on the show as her onscreen rapport with Benoist livened up the show and made it transcend its plotholes and contradictory scripts.

All in all, this is a good start to Season 2, highlighting what worked and slowly dispensing with what did not.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't have much to add to your thoughts on THE FLASH except to say -- the 'explanation' for why the timeline has been altered as delivered by Jay Garrick is (a) a beautiful piece of writing that truly comes alive and (b) total crap.

The metaphor of the new timeline being a cracked coffee cup is a beautiful image -- but in order for it to be convincing, the imagery needs to actually apply to the onscreen events. And, onscreen, there is absolutely no reason why Nora Allen living for 30 seconds longer than she did before results in Caitlin having the metahuman gene, Dante being dead in a car accident, Iris never forgiving her father until now for faking her mother's death or Sara Diggle being erased.

I think you'd need a few extra lines here about how time is like a leaf floating down a river; each time you drop a leaf in, it will take a slightly different course and each temporal reset is dropping the leaf into the river once again. Jay needed to explain that time isn't strict and structured; much of life is subject to random chance. When you change time and then change it back, events with many possible outcomes are subjected to a second round of variability with potentially different results -- such as Dante crossing a street, an X and a Y chromosome, etc..

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I just thought that Barry was going to go back in time and stop his season 1 self from saving his mother, as we saw before.

Question. Why haven't the Legends gone back to fix what Barry messed up?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Legends of Tomorrow --

Bad.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I guess what they're going for on Flash is a true butterfly effect.  If the flap of a butterfly's wings can create a tornado, then a few extra seconds of breath from Nora could do the same.

The thing I've wondered about - if the original Eobard that killed Nora disappeared while laying unconscious on the floor; and the Eobard who did kill her was able to run Barry back to present day; then was there never an Eobard trapped in the past?  After dropping Barry off in the present, Eobard even said that time was right again for him, and I take that to mean he was never trapped in the past.

I think that fact could be the biggest influence on changes in history. There would no longer be a reason for Eobard to kill Earth 1 Harrison Wells - Eobard wouldn't even be there to do it.  The events of season one would have played out very differently; but I guess not enough to be screamingly obvious on first glance.  Supporting this - season one Barry also disappeared from Nora's death scene meaning that Barry never traveled back in time at the end of season one.  Eobard wasn't there to get him to do it.

Of course none of that even mentions that Eddie Thawne would still be alive and Eobard never erased from existence in a paradox.  Ronnie Raymomd likely still alive.  We'll see.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Question. Why haven't the Legends gone back to fix what Barry messed up?

My only thought is that speedsters work outside of normal physics.  So maybe they can't detect changes in time created by speedsters?  Only "traditional" time machines?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

I think that fact could be the biggest influence on changes in history. There would no longer be a reason for Eobard to kill Earth 1 Harrison Wells - Eobard wouldn't even be there to do it.  The events of season one would have played out very differently; but I guess not enough to be screamingly obvious on first glance.  Supporting this - season one Barry also disappeared from Nora's death scene meaning that Barry never traveled back in time at the end of season one.  Eobard wasn't there to get him to do it.

Yeah but that opens up a huge can of worms that I don't think the show can really handle.  And there's already cracks in the wall of that.  Jay referred to his Wells as "Harry."  Which is correct - that's what they called him based on Season One.

But if Thawne didn't become Wells and go evil, there wouldn't have been any reason to call Earth-2 Wells "Harry".  The only reason they did is because it creeped them out to call him Dr. Wells when he ended up being evil.  It could be a coincidence (it isn't a clever nickname - Earth-2 Wells might've gone by Harry anyway), but it's one of those little things that they might not pick up on.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think it's really sad, what they've done to the Sara Lance character. She was really cool on Arrow in season 2. Now she is a joke. She used to be strong and cool. Now she's their sex kitten who is incapable of intelligent thought. They probably tell themselves that she is like the macho Kirk-like figures in old fiction, but in the form of a woman. But she's not. She's an excuse for girl on girl action, while looking like a fool.

Maybe she should have stayed dead.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, we need an official timeline for this whole universe because when did Oliver have time to run off to New York with some "time historian" to dig up a submarine?  These crossovers are cool, and I love that the actors are willing to do them.  I thought the Felicity guest appearance on Flash was really genuine and cool, and I thought Oliver's part made sense from a character perspective.  But he's mayor and full-time solo vigilante on Arrow.  Taking a random trip would be harmful to both, and they don't really explain it.  He kept saying he was busy but apparently not too busy.

I didn't hate the premiere, but the show just doesn't do much for me.  I think I'm more excited to see Darhk and Thawne work together than anything else.  I still think Legends needed to be an anthology show.  They could be doing cool stories that the rest of the Arrowverse can't do.

Arrow, I think, was pretty good.  I'm liking these flashbacks more than previous ones, and I like the way the team is coming together.  I like Oliver's character a lot more this year, and Felicity has been more fun now that she's not carrying so much emotional baggage.  Considering the mess the Flash has been so far, I think Arrow might be the best of the shows right now.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I agree. Oliver's appearance was a little strange. I think they could have had the scene with Oliver in the beginning and maybe sent someone else with the new guy. Maybe Thea, or Curtis. Maybe someone from The Flash, like Cisco could have been brought in by Oliver. It was just weird to have Oliver there, but then he's just gone. It probably could have been fixed with a simple line of dialogue, like "Just give me ten minutes to get clear before you leave" or something like that.

I thought the premiere was horrible. Usually, the show is just a bunch of crazy comic book fun. It's never been particularly good or deep, but there have been enough moments to make it work, and the cast brought it together. This episode didn't have any moments to make it work. They basically crapped all over Albert Einstein, as part of this trend to rewrite real life history in fiction, for the sake of political causes. I'm all for having fun with history, but this went too far. Then they scattered the team, seeming to set up a season of trying to track everyone and bring them back together... but five minutes later, they were all back together. Months had apparently passed for them, at least, but they carried on conversations as though an hour had passed. And it didn't even make sense to track them down the way they did, because there was no way o track Ray to that spot at that moment.

There was no story here, just a bunch of chaos, hoping to hide the fact that there was no story. And they took characters that had been pretty solid at one point, and turned them into idiots.

I don't see this show lasting much longer, honestly. The sad part is, I'm not sure that Sara could even go back to Arrow, because they've turned her into someone else entirely.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Personally, I thought Oliver's line of "I don't have time to time travel" was one of the most nonsensical sentences that Stephen Amell has ever been scripted to say. It's a god damn time machine. And in addition to all the plotting problems that Informant noted, there is no onscreen reason for Rip Hunter's disappearance nor does anyone even seem to be worried about his well-being or wonder why he wasn't leading the mission to reunite the team. I can't understand what the point was of separating the team if they were to be recovered so easily aside from creating some incident so that Arthur Darvill could exit the show (is he even leaving?).

And yet... it was fun. I enjoyed it. I thought Sara Lance becoming like James Bond was hilarious. But the show doesn't make much sense and there's an odd sense of just trying to fill an hour with the actors that ARROW and FLASH don't have space to deal with. I wonder if SUPERGIRL's Jimmy Olsen will join the Legends at some point. LEGENDS reminds me of the MARVEL KNIGHTS and DEFENDERS comics where Marvel would publish these titles featuring characters who had no reason to be together beyond keeping the copyrights and titles in circulation and serving as a dumping ground for the unwanted.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, it was odd.  When they were separated in time, I thought "oh, this is kinda a cool way of dealing with the season.  They'll be separated in time, doing their own thing, and then each week will be a mission to put the team back together before they fight Thawne and Darhk."

Then, five minutes later, it's all back to normal.  I thought they were going to have Sara reference how badass it would've been for Ray to survive with dinosaurs for as long as he did, but they didn't.  I also wondered why they couldn't have just gone back to find him before he was ever in any danger.

The show is lazy.  But I do think it's watchable.  Easily the worst of the Arrowverse shows.  Or do you think Supergirl is still worse, Info?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21, SUPERGIRL is a heartfelt, earnest, at times sickeningly sweet series about nice high school children in superhuman bodies who want to spend all day doing nice things. Of course Informant hates it, he's biologically allergic to fun.

(I'm sorry, but now that I've come to accept Informant is a conservative who isn't a Republican nutjob, I need to to have this. As I said earlier, I can't really disagree with any of Informant's criticisms, they just don't bother me as much as they bother him.)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

You've read Starlette! You know that I am capable of enjoying myself through some completely bonkers storylines. But every story needs a foundation... a heart. Sometimes it's enough to just have a really solid cast to keep a series coasting through nonsense (as with The Flash and Arrow), but Supergirl has miscast so many characters that none of it comes together.

Right now, Supergirl is still the worst. The story is crap and the cast is wrong. LoT has horrible writing, but a cast that is at least capable of creating gold, should the scripts ever arrive in workable condition.

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