Re: Rewatch Podcast

Just a small follow-up --

What happened with David Peckinpah and Bill Dial could have happened to any one of us. We've all held crazy grudges to the point where they warp logic, reason, sense and basic facts. We've all engaged in ill-advised and hurtful pranks because causing people alarm and annoyance seemed more important than regarding each other with respect and kindness. Turning Quinn into a pivotal Chosen One in an interdimensional war is something any fanfic writer might misguidedly do after a long STAR WARS marathon. Turning home into a Kromagg battleground is something any artist might do when mistaking cynicism and horror for depth and meaning.

It's just that when we screw up, we're probably not doing it on a national stage, but that's merely due to circumstance. David Peckinpah had the grave misfortune to be in a very bad place when he was creating broadcast drama. Don't know much about Bill Dial other than many staffers describing him as a petty jerk and Robert Floyd describing him as a sweet and loving genius. But given that Dial spent his post-SLIDERS career getting in stupid online fights with slider1525, it's safe to assume he was a pretty messed up guy as well.

Could've been any of us. For that reason, my final SLIDERS script will be dedicated to David Peckinpah and pay tribute to some of the ideas he introduced to the show.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions - I would have loved Wade as the commander of the human resistance. It would have been a perfect throwback to the pilot and also just a much better way to resolve the issue of her character.

I want to read this story now.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Have to agree with intangirble. Nice. Very apt.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

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ireactions, Commander Wade Welles is the BEST idea for handling Wade’s situation. Damn it! Where were you when they were planning this episode?

105 (edited by NDJ 2015-10-31 21:39:44)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I need to catch up on the Rewatch. I love it! So here’s my Season 2 all at once.

Time Again and World. Yes, reading it over the radio when there is a working internet seems silly but the idea of people not knowing what rights they have lost makes sense (the show specifically states that people do not remember the full Constitution, not that they have completely forgotten about it). Remember “Prince of Wails” when Arturo and Rembrandt can’t remember the full Bill of Rights? What's their excuse? Quick, list the Bill of Rights right now without looking it up. I know 1, 2, 4 and 5 off the top of my head. The rest I’ll read up on if I ever get arrested. It was a good idea that wasn’t fully conceptualized.

I always thought the sliders should take a backpack too. In Time Again and World, Rembrandt does make the slide with a bag. I guess it couldn’t be a regular thing because as practical as it is, it’s not that good a look and it’s just one more thing to keep track of. Besides what could you take that you can’t stuff in your pockets? It’s not like you can take canned goods- imagine landing hard on a bag of cans or having it fly out of the vortex and hit you. And as many times as they slide in the nick of time, having a bag would just slow them down- or it would be taken away like the timer.

Love Gods. I love how the professor, for all his intellectual high and mightiness, is still a man underneath it all. He’s the one making statements like “Gentlemen, we made a slide to heaven” and talking about nurse fantasies. He’s worse than Rembrandt!

As Time Goes By. I understood the backwards time section when it aired; I appreciated the attempt at innovation and I am not into physics beyond how it is interpreted by science fiction. (I actually looked up the adiabatic limit mentioned in “Last Days” and the only world I understood was ‘limit’). Yes, there are plot problems. For example, the people should have been speaking backwards but how are we, the viewing audience, supposed to understand the show? The compensation was the time shifts. Also, Quinn destroyed the universe by changing both the past AND the future. By saving Daelin he changed his own future- which had already happened (how was he supposed to slide into jail for a murder that was never committed) and the past events of that world- which now cannot be reconciled with the present. This is a time paradox worthy of Star Trek or The Twilight Zone!

Invasion. Organic metal seems to be a staple of science fiction. Both Stargate: Atlantis and Battlestar Galactica had a version of it.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

intangirble wrote:

ireactions - I would have loved Wade as the commander of the human resistance. It would have been a perfect throwback to the pilot and also just a much better way to resolve the issue of her character.

omnimercurial wrote:

Have to agree with intangirble. Nice. Very apt.

NDJ wrote:

ireactions, Commander Wade Welles is the BEST idea for handling Wade’s situation. Damn it! Where were you when they were planning this episode?

I think I was like 12. And oh dear God, I've created a monster.

The "Commander Wade Welles" concept makes "Genesis" a little less upsetting, but "Genesis" would remain shockingly destructive to SLIDERS concept. If the sliders are no longer from a world that's just like ours, there's no basis for contrast between alt-histories and our history. The show is broken.

The home invasion was just awful. Matt Hutaff and Temporal Flux have gone into what Marc Scott Zicree meant to achieve with the Kromagg Prime arc and I think it's just ghastly.

The original plan was to reveal at the end of Season 4 that the Earth in "Genesis" wasn't home at all and that Quinn's new backstory had been a trick. That still means that, for 21 episodes, Quinn and Rembrandt would still be refugees from a devastated Earth and soldiers in an interdimensional war as opposed to relatable nomads searching for home.

It is impossible to tell SLIDERS stories properly post-"Genesis" and 21 episodes of SLIDERS where it's not possible to do SLIDERS stories is way too many. This should have been, at most, a 6 episode arc. Maybe a three-episode season-ender where home is invaded and a two-episode season premiere where it's liberated.

(But ireactions! Haven't you also broken the SLIDERS concept with SLIDERS REBORN? Well, yes. But it's only a three-part story with a prelude and an interlude -- and it's obviously not a permanent situation.)

A Season 4 without John or Sabrina could have worked. But I would have gone for a simpler route.

Here's a Season 4 version of SLIDERS REBORN: two years after "This Slide of Paradise," a teenaged girl named Laurel on Earth Prime wanders into Quinn's basement and accidentally triggers the sliding machine. She ends up on an Earth where anyone under 25 is a slave who has to earn their freedom.

She is rescued by Quinn; he detected the sliding signature of his original hardware and thought it might be Wade or Rembrandt searching for him. Quinn tries to return Laurel home only to discover his sliding in to investigate also scattered the photon trail. He can't send her home.

He admits that he deleted his home coordinates two years ago and has been sliding alone for a long time.

What happened to Maggie? She encountered a double of Steven and chose to remarry and remain. Why didn't Quinn go home? Shortly after "This Slide of Paradise," Quinn suffered a head injury. He recovered, but a CAT scan revealed the Kromagg tracking device in his brain. Inoperable. Impossible to remove even with the most advanced surgical techniques. Powered by a zero-point energy process that draws fuel from Quinn's body. Programmed to send an alert should Quinn ever stop sliding.

Quinn dared not return home, not even for a moment -- because he feared he'd never be able to bring himself to leave again. He deleted the coordinates from his timer to avoid temptation.

Quinn Mallory is a genius. His timer can take him to any dimension. He's formed trade routes and relationships across a hundred worlds; he's built machines that can process and collate data from a thousand different histories. He has ended hundreds of wars, brokered peace between nations, ended water and energy crises, saved thousands of lives and seen more than anyone can imagine. Quinn Mallory can do anything. Except go home.

For two years, Quinn has rejected every offer of companionship in his endless journey, but Laurel offers him something no one else can -- she is a piece of the home he'll never see again. And SLIDERS begins once again: an experienced, capable, hardened slider and a young girl who will become Quinn's confidante and protege.

I would have released Cleavant and Kari from their contracts as well as Sabrina -- once Rickman died, the Maggie arc was over; once Rembrandt and Wade made it home, their stories were over too. But I would have asked them to guest-star as doubles throughout the season.

There. Season 4. How hard was that?

Re: Rewatch Podcast

It would certainly make "Prophets and Loss" more palatable, where Quinn and Rembrandt are upbeat and cheerful. Because as aired, "Prophets and Loss" makes no sense whatsoever for the characters. How can Quinn and Rembrandt be so lighthearted? So cheerful? So upbeat? So at ease? Quinn's mother is a Kromagg prisoner. Everyone Rembrandt has ever known or cared about is enslaved or dead. Bennish. Alesha. Danielle. Daelin. Wing. The Professor's son. Rembrandt's parents. Hurley. Wade.
And furthermore, how can the sliders be so utterly indifferent to the resistance back home? The timer lets them slide back to Earth Prime. How can they be joking around and hanging out? Why aren't they periodically sliding back to Earth Prime with supplies for the people fighting and dying for their world?

I thought more-or-less the same thing when I watched that episode. I basically said, "So, Wade is in serious trouble and their homeworld is too. And they don't seem to care a lick!" Maybe thet's the subliminal reason why I stopped watching Sliders in the middle of that episode (I finally picked it up again a few weeks later). They were too darn apathetic!

Author, artist, sci-fi nerd, rebel against the world, and self-proclaimed eccentric.

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ireactions

First, I don’t think that killing Wade would have been a good idea- not right off the bat. The whole reason SyFy bought Sliders was for its fan base- some of which was based on the characters not just the concept. There was already so much change happening. I think it would have been too much all at once- better to ease the audience into her death. The problem is, they didn’t do this right either. 

I do agree with you, I signed up for adventure- not a search for a weapon of mass destruction. But I LOVED the group. If they had kept Sabrina Lloyd then they wouldn’t have had to resort to the obvious science fiction of aliens. It could have gone something like this: Remmy and Wade are on a non Kromagg infested Earth Prime. They were excited to be home, but their time away has changed them and they don’t feel comfortable on Earth anymore. Quinn shows up (after having dumped Maggie off with her people) and the FBI pounces. Bennish has pulled a “Last Days” Einstein and no one can get sliding to work. This, coupled with a host of adjustment issues, leads Quinn and friends to realize it’s not their time to be home and they voluntarily slide off together into the sunset. Quinn’s last line from Genesis “We’ll be back. You can count on it,” stays the same.

So now it’s not “will they ever find home”, its “will they ever be ready to return home”?

Maybe they take Bennish, maybe they don’t. Maybe they run into PTSS Professor maybe they don’t. Maybe they run into Colin (the brother of a dead Quinn) or Logan, maybe they don’t. The original mission, of wonder and exploration with all its possibilities, remains alive.

I disagree, though, that the culture of other worlds can’t be explored, appreciated, and compared just because their world isn’t our world (although the idea that it isn’t, stings). Theirs is a close enough copy that it still stands as a surrogate for ours. Revisionists note that from day one there have been clues throughout the series that their Earth was never our Earth. If this is true, we can hardly be sore now.

As you have stated several times, anything can be a Sliders episode (or am I giving you credit for someone else’s thoughts?). They were trying to go big because so much had changed. The search for home was always their main goal and with Sabrina Lloyd gone that was off the table. Lloyd may not have been integral to the show staying on the air, but she was integral to the old storyline. Without something catastrophic, there was no way to have Rembrandt back without Wade. So how do you bring back the search for home, realign the group, keep the old audience, AND entice new viewers? Use an unexplored but previously used villain to make the old home uninhabitable and make a ‘real’ home somewhere else!

In as far as the idea and goals of season 4 goes, I think they did a slightly below average job. Could they have done better? Hell yes. Could they have done worse? They did.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

NDJ wrote:

If they had kept Sabrina Lloyd then they wouldn’t have had to resort to the obvious science fiction of aliens. It could have gone something like [...]Quinn and friends to realize it’s not their time to be home and they voluntarily slide off together into the sunset. Quinn’s last line from Genesis “We’ll be back. You can count on it,” stays the same. So now it’s not “will they ever find home”, its “will they ever be ready to return home”?

I guess. I imagine the sliders needing a stronger motive to keep sliding besides home being less welcoming than hoped -- although there was a SLIDERS comic book that had nearly the same decision made.

I find that "Genesis" makes it really difficult to swallow Quinn and Rembrandt taking down dictators and fascists every week while failing to do anything about the Kromaggs. And given that there was no Kromagg invasion in our world, Quinn and Rembrandt no longer have a common frame of reference with the audience.

The Earth in the Pilot was *never* 'our' Earth, but it was close enough as a surrogate, as you say. That's no longer the case with "Genesis." I mean, sure, "Prophets and Loss" has people being incinerated, but it's still a better world to live in than "Genesis."

My Season 4 proposal was for Jerry O'Connell and a new co-star. The idea of keeping the show going with Jerry, Sabrina and Cleavant -- it doesn't really sit well with me. I don't feel like those three characters function properly without the Professor; he's a necessity for contrasting against the other three especially in screen presence and temperament.

The Quinn Mallory character isn't really designed to be a leading man as much as he's meant to be an advance scout and a juvenile who inspires his teacher. Rembrandt and Wade are meant to react to crazy situations like a normal person; Sabrina's performance plays it for drama and Cleavant's performance makes trauma and terror funny. And the Professor is really the leader of the sliders even if he comes last in the credits.

I don't really feel the Quinn character should be the leader for Rembrandt and Wade; I just don't see Quinn having that kind of presence. I see Jerry's acting being more appropriate to leadership roles with younger co-stars -- the way Quinn mentored his younger self in "The Guardian."

The only way Sabrina would have stayed on SLIDERS anyway would have been if Peckinpah had left and Tracy Torme had returned and brought John Rhys-Davies back with him -- at which point, you might as well just do "Slide Effects," declare everything from "The Exodus" to "Paradise" to be a Kromagg mind game and get back to the business of sliding.

I guess if I had to find some way to make Jerry, Cleavant and Sabrina work without John, I would cheat, steal an idea from Temporal Flux and bring in a female-double of Arturo.

NDJ wrote:

In as far as the idea and goals of season 4 goes, I think they did a slightly below average job. Could they have done better? Hell yes. Could they have done worse? They did.

It continues to terrify me to this day that Keith Damron, one of the driving forces of SLIDERS in the Sci-Fi years, is now teaching film and television production at the University of Eastern Michigan. I hope to God his students are slow learners.

110 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-01 11:07:49)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I like the original four as well and thought each brought something special to the table- none of whom could really be replaced but I don't like "it was all a dream" or "it was all mind control" as an excuse; it's lazy and disrespectful to the viewers who have invested their time and energy into believing what was shown to them. It can work for an episode but for half a season? I would have grudgingly taken it from Torme because of the behind the scenes drama. I understand the end of season 3 was a mess but clean it up, don't pretend it didn't exist. I like the idea of Arturo being left behind in PTSS being the real one and finding him. This could have resulted in some great character moments as they have to reconnect with a new/old version of someone that they not only saw die but had a relationship with and he has to deal with issues of abandonment.

Truthfully, I like the idea that "Genesis" Earth wasn't Earth Prime ("Exodus" did not sell me that it was) but it still leaves the Wade issue as well as another one: Did Quinn really leave his friends on a random Earth? That would create huge issues of trust and reliability. Also, how many times can you dangle "It's home! Wait- no it isn't" in front of the audience and the sliders? There's a fine line between sad but true and straight up cruel.

My understanding is that Lloyd would have worked with Peckinpah, she couldn't work with Wuhrer. So any idea that includes Wade but not Maggie was totally feasible. The problem was Peckinpah preferred Wuhrer. JRD wasn't coming back with Peckinpah there. That's why I left that as a possibility rather than a necessity.

As for Quinn leading the group- he can't stay the impetuous kid forever, he needs to grow up. By season 3 the professor was backing off a bit anyway. I think it might be a bit quick for him to be mentoring a kid when he's still working out how to be a grown up himself.

Oh, first and last are honored positions in the credits. People remember the first and last things they see more than anything in the middle. Also notice that his name is the only one accompanied by the role he plays.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Which Actresses would you envision as an.effective and well suited Femme Arturo?

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

omnimercurial wrote:

Which Actresses would you envision as an.effective and well suited Femme Arturo?

I would choose Joanna Lumley.

NDJ wrote:

I like the original four as well and thought each brought something special to the table- none of whom could really be replaced but I don't like "it was all a dream" or "it was all mind control" as an excuse; it's lazy and disrespectful to the viewers who have invested their time and energy into believing what was shown to them. It can work for an episode but for half a season? I would have grudgingly taken it from Torme because of the behind the scenes drama. I understand the end of season 3 was a mess but clean it up, don't pretend it didn't exist.

Back on the old Bboard, slider1525 wrote a lengthy plot outline where the Professor, following the sliders, encounters the animal human hybrids of "This Slide of Paradise" and revisits Michael York's lab and gradually reunites with his friends one by one. It was very amusing and sincere, but also exhausting. I have read every Season 6 fanfic ever written with the point-by-point reversals of Seasons 3 - 5 and they, too, are utterly draining and a massive distraction. Television is best, in my view, when its aims and goals are simple and straightforward. The sliders are lost in the multiverse, trying to find their way back home. Simple. Elegant. Beautiful.

Yes, "Slide Effects" is a massive copout, but I'd argue that getting Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo back onscreen together immediately is far more important than anything else.

But then again, I honestly don't think "Slide Effects" was even meant as a way of deleting the Season 3 episodes. Torme presented it to me that way when we had an online chat as his solution to getting rid of the episodes he didn't like. But the 2009 interview on EP.COM revealed the story had been conceived in November 1996 before John had been fired. It was meant to be a Season 4 premiere and his sequel to "Invasion." In an interview, Torme said:

“I have a very trippy, surrealistic show in mind involving the Kromaggs. It wouldn’t be us landing in the middle of another invasion; it would start in a way that you wouldn’t know it was a Kromagg show.”

With that in mind, the story is clearly not about removing episodes from continuity. Instead, it's about the Kromaggs as manipulators offering the sliders the ultimate temptation. The Kromaggs prey upon the sliders' homesickness and despair, offering them a facsimile: a permanent and eternal illusion of home in exchange for information that will let the Kromaggs invade the actual home Earth. The Kromaggs point out that the sliders, with random sliding, have no chance of ever getting back to where they came from and even if they do, the Kromaggs will destroy it. Surely there's no shame in accepting this beautiful lie of living happy and content lives in a world where sliding doesn't exist and they never left their homes and loved ones?

But the sliders refuse. Sliding took them away from everything they knew, but it revealed their ingenuity, their strength of character, the power of ideas and the friendship between them. They wouldn't trade sliding for anything. They escape the Kromaggs and resume sliding. And so, Season 4 would begin with the sliders reaffirming their commitment to each other and to their adventure.

If mishandled, it could have been a copout; presented correctly, it's a life-affirming character study that communicates the joy of sliding and the wonder of the multiverse as well as the bonds between the quartet.

Also, with time rewound to the Pilot, it's a way of introducing the show to a new audience and offering some nostalgia for the fans.

NDJ wrote:

Lloyd would have worked with Peckinpah, she couldn't work with Wuhrer. So any idea that includes Wade but not Maggie was totally feasible. The problem was Peckinpah preferred Wuhrer. JRD wasn't coming back with Peckinpah there.

It's not as simple as that. Sabrina was very upset when John was fired. She held his farewell party at her apartment. She was devastated by his absence. Kari's behaviour was indeed a deciding factor, but Kari or no Kari, Sabrina didn't want to do SLIDERS anymore. Her ultimatum was absurd; she knew full well that Peckinpah would choose Kari. If that hadn't gotten her fired, she would have used salary demands to get removed.

Only John's return would have convinced Sabrina to stay. And John would only have returned if Tracy Torme returned. Don't get me wrong, John and Tracy had tremendous animosity towards each other, same as John and Peckinpah -- but Tracy considered John's talent and character worth any aggravation.

Interestingly, in the Season 2 interviews, John was extremely critical and dismissive of Tracy Torme's writing. After Season 3, John suddenly revised his opinion and spoke extremely well of Tracy; clearly, after Peckinpah, John realized what Tracy had been fighting against.

Had Tracy returned, he would have asked John to re-sign for Season 4 and John would have said yes and Sabrina would also have remained as well.

NDJ wrote:

As for Quinn leading the group- he can't stay the impetuous kid forever, he needs to grow up. By season 3 the professor was backing off a bit anyway. I think it might be a bit quick for him to be mentoring a kid when he's still working out how to be a grown up himself.

I put in the two-year time gap so he could be a mentor to a new slider who wouldn't know which end of the vortex was which.

As for Quinn -- we now enter the arena of personal interpretation. Let us be clear: this is strictly *my* vision of Quinn Mallory and it is not Jerry's vision or even exactly Tracy's vision (although it's close).

Quinn Mallory isn't a leader. Good leaders need to be good with people and Quinn is one of the most withdrawn, isolated characters ever created. As scripted before casting, Quinn was a socially awkward geek. Then Jerry O'Connell was hired to play him and Jerry, for whatever reason, did not play Quinn as socially awkward at all. The Pilot script has Quinn too terrified to ask a girl out on a date and he's laughed at for his inability to receive any woman's undivided attention. The scenes were cut from the script and with good reason; can you imagine Jerry O'Connell having trouble approaching women?

And so, we have a charismatic, attractive, confident, athletic young man who avoids women and labours in secrecy and obscurity in a basement laboratory rather than a university lab. Wade is practically throwing herself at Quinn and if you watch Jerry's performance carefully, Jerry plays Quinn as being perfectly aware of Wade's infatuation but cautiously avoiding eye-contact and direct engagement.

The result of Jerry's performance of Torme's script: Quinn is alone because he chooses to be alone. Because he builds walls around himself to isolate himself from others. He is uncomfortable dealing with people; he doesn't even really have *friends* -- he banters with his classmates but is intimate with none of them. Wade has never even been invited to Quinn's house until Smarter-Quinn's behaviour forces Quinn to invite her over.

One of the most-cited plotholes in "The Guardian" is Quinn's refusal to reveal his secret to the other sliders -- that he permanently injured his school bully with a baseball bat. This isn't an error, in my view: Quinn is withdrawn. The backstory "The Guardian" gives us: Quinn skipped two grades, he was smaller than his peers, he was abused, he was later traumatized by his father's death. And while Quinn will function and improve, I think that Quinn's withdrawn, self-inflicted isolation is what makes the character complex and fascinating.

It's also a neat subversion of a heroic type; it's like Torme wrote Q from the James Bond movies and then essentially hired Daniel Craig to play him while splitting the actual James Bond role between the Professor and Rembrandt and Wade.

So, my feeling is that if there's a need to write Quinn as a more conventional leading man type, it'd be best to write some other character who isn't Quinn Mallory. Quinn's just not a leader in the conventional sense; he's an anarchist who passes notes and information to the actual leader and acts independently to support the group. He doesn't command situations; he operates at the fringes. He occasionally *looks* like the leader ("Prince of Wails), but he's really the idea man. And that's totally fine; not everyone needs to be Sean Connery.

That's what makes SLIDERS so interesting to me; conventional roles are twisted and subverted. The leading man character is a troubled geek, the wise older man is an arrogant ass who is deeply insecure, the leading lady starlet is a mousy firebrand and the muscle is actually the comic relief in the form of a trauma victim played for laughs.

Behind the scenes information courtesy of Temporal Flux.

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ireactions wrote:

Yes, "Slide Effects" is a massive copout, but I'd argue that getting Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo back onscreen together immediately is far more important than anything else.

If mishandled, it could have been a copout; presented correctly, it's a life-affirming character study that communicates the joy of sliding and the wonder of the multiverse as well as the bonds between the quartet.

There is some true to this- if handled correctly.

ireactions wrote:

It's not as simple as that. Sabrina was very upset when John was fired. She held his farewell party at her apartment. She was devastated by his absence. Kari's behaviour was indeed a deciding factor, but Kari or no Kari, Sabrina didn't want to do SLIDERS anymore. Her ultimatum was absurd; she knew full well that Peckinpah would choose Kari. If that hadn't gotten her fired, she would have used salary demands to get removed.

I am clearly not as versed as you are about the Sabrina Lloyd situation (although I was aware of the salary demands) so I will have to defer to your reasoning on that.

ireactions wrote:

Jerry plays Quinn as being perfectly aware of Wade's infatuation but cautiously avoiding eye-contact and direct engagement.

I didn't see this. I read it as being oblivious. They do actually hang out- they have plans to go to a hockey game.

ireactions wrote:

The result of Jerry's performance of Torme's script: Quinn is alone because he chooses to be alone. Because he builds walls around himself to isolate himself from others. He is uncomfortable dealing with people; he doesn't even really have *friends* -- he banters with his classmates but is intimate with none of them. Wade has never even been invited to Quinn's house until Smarter-Quinn's behaviour forces Quinn to invite her over.

One of the most-cited plotholes in "The Guardian" is Quinn's refusal to reveal his secret to the other sliders -- that he permanently injured his school bully with a baseball bat. This isn't an error, in my view: Quinn is withdrawn. The backstory "The Guardian" gives us: Quinn skipped two grades, he was smaller than his peers, he was abused, he was later traumatized by his father's death. And while Quinn will function and improve, I think that Quinn's withdrawn, self-inflicted isolation is what makes the character complex and fascinating. 

That's what makes SLIDERS so interesting to me; conventional roles are twisted and subverted. The leading man character is a troubled geek, the wise older man is an arrogant ass who is deeply insecure, the leading lady starlet is a mousy firebrand and the muscle is actually the comic relief in the form of a trauma victim played for laughs.

I totally agree. And I never saw "The Guardian" as having plotholes- I saw the injury he inflicted as a reason for some of his social reserve. As for not telling the others, I would never tell anybody, no matter how close I was to them, that I did something like that unless I had to- like Quinn did.

I just don't see why the group needs an official leader (and Arturo was terrible with people). They are not a military unit taking orders and they always discuss what they want to do. But if someone disagrees, that person does what he/she thinks is right and the rest are forced to support him/her (Quinn always got the blame for this but Wade and Rembrandt were just as guilty). Arturo was the father figure, mentor, and voice of reason, but when was the last time any of them did what he said? When was the first time? What they need is different points of view that play against each other.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

In the Cleavant Derricks interview on EP.COM -- at least in the original version -- Cleavant established that Sabrina was absolutely miserable after John was fired. Kari Wuhrer did upset Sabrina, but Sabrina was upset to begin with. After the original version was posted, Cleavant contacted the EP.COM webmaster and asked for his negative remarks about Kari Wuhrer and the Sci-Fi Channel to be removed and the webmaster, not wanting to do anything to harm Cleavant's professional relationships, agreed to perform a rewrite.

Sabrina and John were very close; you can see here Sabrina's memo inviting people to attend her farewell party for John.
http://dimensionofcontinuity.com/sabin.jpg

I feel like the Quinn/Wade/Rembrandt/Arturo quartet requires Arturo as an instigator with experience. His presence as a flawed father figure establishes the characters as a family. Arturo is an arrogant ass, but he's also someone who inspires people to follow him straight into hell.

It's also essential that he is Quinn's counterpart but as part of an older generation, the way Rembrandt is to Wade. It's weird, but once Arturo left the show, the onscreen dynamics lost the sense that Quinn and Wade are *extremely* young adults. Onscreen, youth needs age to contrast in order to come off as youthful.

I just don't think Quinn, Wade and Rembrandt function properly as characters without Arturo -- and, to be quite frank, I don't think the actors function particularly well in their roles without him, either. This is not their fault; they were cast as part of an ensemble, after all.

Jerry was, at the time, one of those actors who would only read his own dialogue and then play scenes as himself. If you watch KANGAROO JACK or CROSSING JORDAN or MISSION TO MARS, Jerry plays cops, astronauts and barbers in the same way: as a goofy playboy. He played Quinn the same way. Part of this was unavoidable; he was a football player type playing a geek, after all. But in Seasons 1 - 2, Jerry is incredibly convincing when portraying Quinn's intelligence, moral integrity and intense curiosity -- and I suspect this was largely John's influence on him.

The reason I suspect John elevates every other actor in his work: John is genuinely invested in the scripts. John reads all the scenes, not just his own. You can see John in a behind the scenes feature marvelling at the Kromagg organic metal. So he actually knows the whole story, not just his lines. And he is the sort of actor who constantly wants to discuss scenes with the other actors, work out pacing and rhythm, redistribute lines, etc.. The result is a very clear sense of the relationships between the characters and their roles in each scene. Take that out of the equation and leave Jerry, Sabrina and Cleavant to their own devices -- and then things start to shift.

Cleavant is a really good actor, but his clownish comic timing works better with Arturo's stately sarcasm and pronouncements to compare. Sabrina has a certain stagey quality to her line deliveries. She's more focused on hitting certain points of emotion instead of making her dialogue sound spontaneous and unrehearsed. Butwhen working with John, it becomes a rhythmic rapport. And Jerry -- Jerry in the 90s struck me as a genius-actor who was content to be a hack, but working with John made Jerry put a lot of himself into his work.

John is indispensable. Essential. At least to me.

As for whether Quinn is aware of Wade's attraction or not, we've hit an area of personal interpretation. In the scripts, Quinn was most definitely not aware of Wade's interest in him. Jerry's performance, in my opinion, introduces (unintentional?) ambiguity; other viewers don't see it that way.

The reason I started to think Quinn was perfectly aware of Wade's feelings for him the whole time; Wade indicates, in "Last Days," that there are some things Quinn doesn't know about her, presumably, her feelngs towards him. Quinn responds to that by trying to kiss her. But what about in the Pilot when Quinn asks Wade, "What's with the tears?" as though he doesn't realize she's in love with him. To me, that struck me as Quinn foolishly thinking himself invincible as youth often do.

But again. I'm not 'right' anymore than you are 'wrong' -- we're just looking at art with different views. In a recent chat with Matt Hutaff, I commented that I think "The Guardian" is a retcon that attempts to bridge the gap between the scripted Quinn and the onscreen Quinn by offering an explanation for how Jerry O'Connell could lack confidence with the skipped two grades backstory.

As supporting evidence, I cited how the Pilot indicates in a photo that Quinn was in his late-teens when his father died; Jerry plays young-Quinn in the photograph. "The Guardian" changes that to Quinn being played by an 11-year-old actor when his father died in order to make Michael Mallory's death more traumatic.

Matt disagreed. He doesn't think "The Guardian" was a retcon at all; his view is that if Jerry hadn't played Quinn in the photograph in the Pilot, the viewer would have been confused by who the boy in the photo was meant to be.

Another interesting instance: Temporal Flux once described his vision of Conrad Bennish Jr. to me. Bennish, to TF, is someone in a perpetual time warp, representing what was at the forefront of culture but from decades in the past. Bennish dressed and acted like a 60s hippie because hippies were the 'cool' thing when Tracy Torme was a child, but Bennish is only capable of representing the exterior details of the culture without any of the inherent values or deeper meaning behind the movement. That's how I see Bennish too; he's constantly behind. In SLIDERS REBORN, he's a relic of the dot-com boom and bust from the 90s.

Matt disagrees with this take on Bennish. To Matt, Bennish is simply the token pothead student to round out the class in the Pilot and seeing more than that is me adding things to the character as opposed to seeing what's already there. And that is the nature of art. We all look at the same thing and see something different.

Oddly, the skipped-two-grades backstory is in the original draft of "Gillian of the Spirits."

Behind the scenes information courtesy of Temporal Flux.

115 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-01 14:32:20)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

The skipping two grades backstory actually fixes a problem that I did not see addressed here (or maybe I am not looking hard enough)- Quinn was only 20/21 when he started sliding, yet he had just started the second year of his graduate studies.

The scripts place him as being closer to 25 because of grad school (and I have heard 23 for the same reason) and because Smarter Quinn is married. "Into the Mystic" however, puts year of birth as 1973 and the pilot states he started sliding in 1994. If he had graduated high school at the standard 17/18 then there's no way he could be in his second year of grad school (even geniuses have to take general education classes and abide by course load standards plus he'd needs to work to pay for all his equipment). Allowing him to graduate high school at 15/16 gives him a standard 4 year undergrad 2 year grad school education arc, assist with the social awkwardness aspect, and supports the idea of the 'boy genius.'

116 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-01 14:28:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

Back on the old Bboard, slider1525 wrote a lengthy plot outline where the Professor, following the sliders, encounters the animal human hybrids of "This Slide of Paradise" and revisits Michael York's lab and gradually reunites with his friends one by one.

I feel like I've asked this before, but can we read a copy of this anywhere?

For that matter, the original interview with Cleavant Derricks, as well. And John's behind the scenes feature with the Kromagg metal. I feel like there's a lot of Sliders history that I missed out on, not being in the online fandom all this time. I'd like to catch up.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

The behind the scenes featurette is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT3PYXDPpHQ

I consider it to be one of the grimmest and darkest pieces of SLIDERS. Ever. Just terrifying. At one point, Sabrina jokes about Jerry's manic overperformance as an actor. Later, Cleavant expresses fear of the sparks from on-set effects and Sabrina tells him not to worry and that the production will step in if there's any real danger. John proceeds to laugh darkly at the naivete of actors who think that people on the set would actually care about protecting them from harm. John later declares that the only reason Cleavant stays on the show is because he has to feed his four children and Sabrina jokes that they are all getting fired.

...

I never really noticed Quinn's age as a child. I just saw Quinn as 'young.' As I got older and more aware of details, I thought Quinn had to be 23 - 24 and would be actually older than Jerry, but "Into the Mystic" and "The Guardian" indicated that Jerry is only one year older than Quinn.

Jerry is a very good actor, but there are times when he's phoned in his work. I think one of his best performances is the Season 3/4 credits voiceover. His work there is so detailed, so considered. "What if you found a portal to a parallel universe?" he asks in a questioning, thoughtful tone. "What if you could slide into a thousand different worlds?" he says in a slightly challenging tone, daring the listener to imagine those worlds. "Where it's the same year and you're the same person," he continues with a playful, almost laughing manner -- "but everything else is different." The humour vanishes; his voice is suddenly apprehensive. "And," he finishes in a haunted, lost delivery: "what if you can't find your way home?" It's extraordinary! There's such thought put into how to sell each line.

And then you have "Slidecage," where Quinn thinks Maggie is dead and the script portrays Quinn as shattered and broken and despondent -- but Jerry plays the scene like Quinn is bored, like he doesn't understand that in this scene, Quinn honestly thinks Maggie has died. What's the difference? When John was around, Jerry seemed to know what the hell he was performing; after John left, Jerry just memorized his lines.

That said, I think Jerry grew out of this sort of hackwork a long time ago.

The original Cleavant interview wasn't archived, sadly, but there were almost no direct quotes from Cleavant anyway. It consisted largely of Matt's recollections of meeting Cleavant when Cleavant was doing a CD signing. Cleavant described Kari Wuhrer as "a little abrasive" and that he felt the Season 4 reworking for Maggie "did little good" and that Cleavant felt the Sci-Fi Channel had no interest in SLIDERS, seeking only to get its fans to watch the Channel's other programming. Sci-Fi did not support the show after Season 4, had no intention of renewing it for Season 5 until ratings forced them to do so, made no plans to renew it for Season 6 despite the ratings, and this pissed Cleavant off. A lot.

Cleavant then asked Matt to rewrite the article. Cleavant's remarks about Kari were removed. He was now "full of praise" for the Sci-Fi era writers and grateful to Sci-Fi for renewing the show. Ah, business.

Cleavant was also on very good terms with David Peckinpah. The Derricks and Peckinpahs had family evenings together. I'm told that this was, again, something Cleavant did because he wished to stay on good terms with business partners and was not one to be hostile anyway; it did not indicate that Cleavant in any way approved of Peckinpah's approach to SLIDERS, John or Sabrina.

Sliders1525's outline -- I can't find it. It was likely lost due to the god-awful web service that used to host this Bboard. Stay the hell away from Hosting Check, everyone. Sliders1525's outline was completely insane and absurd and ridiculous (sorry) -- but you could say the same of my writing, too. It was basically Arturo facing off against the leftovers of "This Slide of Paradise" and wandering around the location, gathering clues that would eventually lead to a reunion of the original cast. On one level, it was really silly -- the thought of John Rhys-Davies confronting those silly characters and doing a sequel to the worst episode of television ever made is really difficult to visualize.

At the same time, I had to admire it. I've brought the sliders back to life in two different ways, but it has to be said that I always used shortcuts in order to skip ahead to the ending I wanted -- Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo reunited, the Kromagg Prime plots dismissed. Most other Season 6 writers took a character-by-character, plot-by-plot approach to undoing Seasons 3 - 5. Most of them are unreadably incoherent. It's a problem with the material, not the writers. There is no real thematic connection between revealing that the wrong Arturo slid, discovering that the Wade in "Requiem" was a clone, sticking Colin, revealing the Kromagg Prime story to be a falsehood, discovering that the real Earth Prime is safe. It's attempting to do a sequel to five different stories. Even a resurrected Ernest Hemingway couldn't take on these tasks and wring a coherent tale out of it.

Nevertheless, I have to appreciate these writers trying to put some real effort into the exercise instead of using shortcuts, cheat codes, time gaps, etc..

118 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-01 20:02:59)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Thank you, ireactions, for what you could give us, even if it's not the full picture.

I need to watch the behind-the-scenes reel now. For a production that, at least in its first two seasons, was so lovely, it sure was plagued with an underlying negativity and fear.

When I watch a show, I want to think the actors I love are well cared for, respected for the amazing work they do and treated with kindness and dignity. It's painful every time I'm reminded that this wasn't the case at all for these people.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I think I may have skewed what the featurette was like. It's really cute. They look so happy. The sliders are in their prime. And they're kidding around and the chemistry between them is so natural and genuine and beautiful. I frequently watch this clip before writing SLIDERS REBORN dialogue.

But every single joke they make as they're relaxing between setups -- they're all jokes that would come horrifically true. They did all get fired. Someone actually did die on set. Cleavant really did stick with the show for five seasons because, well, come on, it was a living.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Now that I've watched it, I see what you mean. It's actually cute, but darkly prophetic.

I always thought/hoped that Cleavant just really loved Sliders that much and didn't want to be the last original cast member to jump ship, but I guess the alternative is more realistic.

I know he does really love his fans, though. I'd love to see him at a convention someday.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

intangirble wrote:

Now that I've watched it, I see what you mean. It's actually cute, but darkly prophetic.

I always thought/hoped that Cleavant just really loved Sliders that much and didn't want to be the last original cast member to jump ship, but I guess the alternative is more realistic.

I know he does really love his fans, though. I'd love to see him at a convention someday.

I see no reason why Cleavant didn't stay with SLIDERS for both financial and emotional reasons. There was a repulsive poster on the previous version of this Bboard who referred to Cleavant as "the racial hire" and declared Cleavant had no right to get top billing in Season 5 as he was the black guy.

When I rebuilt this Bboard, I sent E-mails to every single poster to welcome them back here -- except that particular poster. This is a SLIDERS message board, for God's sake.

And yet -- there is a kernel of truth there in that Hollywood's products are marketed largely to white males. Cleavant is an excellent actor. In Season 1, I adore his comic routine. And when Rembrandt is given a darker side in Season 2, Cleavant integrates it seamlessly into the character. In Season 4, Cleavant really sells Rembrandt's trauma and shell shock. I'm not really into music, but Cleavant is clearly a magnificent musician and singer. And he bought Matt Hutaff a sandwich. Chicken salad. Heavy on the mayo.

But I must grimly accept that Cleavant's offers were sparser than his castmates' -- probably lots of guest-star roles and stage roles, probably few, if any, offers for leading roles. So of course he stayed on SLIDERS. It was business.

It's really unfair, because any Caucasian actor with 1/3 of Cleavant's talents would have three times the career.

That said, I don't doubt that Cleavant also stayed for the fans. It is impossible that he only stayed for the fans, but he did love SLIDERS. SLIDERS showcased his musical, comedic and dramatic talents with more range than any role before or after -- mainly because he got to play doubles. The business and the emotional reasons are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I don't really worry about staying on topic for this Bboard, but having gone off on tangents distant from the Rewatch Podcast, I feel I should announce the latest podcast, reviewing "Common Ground" and "Virtual Slide."

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_20-08_00

Cory E-mails me whenever a new podcast is up. I'll be editing the thread title to reflect the latest podcast when he does this, unless Tom beats me to it!

123 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-03 15:43:16)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I am still behind on the Rewatch Podcast so here are my thoughts on season three.

“Double Cross”- It seems highly unlikely that Quinn hooked up with Logan. Although they were in sync he specifically said things were moving too fast and he also felt like something was off. It’s like Back to the Future when Lorraine tells Marty, who she’s been chasing the whole movie, that kissing him is like kissing her brother. It’s not like “Love Gods” where it DEFINITELY happened.

Also, Logan kind of had to be Quinn’s double. It opens up another set of possibilities (even if they are not explored) and reminds Quinn, once again, that he doesn’t know everything. It also allows everybody to have a double on this world.

“The Dream Masters”- Dumbest episode ever. Aside from the fact that someone (an angry relative) would have shot up the Dream Master den long ago, how the hell do they get the drugs into their hand without it leaching into their own systems? This the FIRST problem.

“The Prince of Slides”- Women can’t ascend to the throne? Also, if professor is a guru for all knowledge that falls under the umbrella of science, then he really is under appreciated on his home world and has every right to a pompous ass!

“Paradise Lost”- People drink urine to lose weight, smear bird poop on their face to get rid of wrinkles and were reported to lick toads to get high. In light of this, is worm turd eating for youth really THAT outrageous?

Also, why is Quinn mad at Wade when they are in the cave? She didn't say anything about not wanting to carrying the dynamite, yet he gives her attitude about being uncomfortable carrying it. I guess he could be jealous because she was getting close to Parker? He has been jealous before, but at this point that seems like an incredible stretch. It just seems like a moment of unnecessary meanness.

"The Last of Eden"- So Wade never knew the professor was sick, but the other two did. No wonder she was more upset than Rembrandt and Quinn; she had no opportunity to prepare for a time when he wouldn't be there.

“The Other Slide of Darkness”- Rickman’s face changing is not that stupid. On his home world, Rickman was very selective about who he stole brain fluid from. On his slides he wasn’t always able to be. Because it was less pure, he needed more, more often and this was the cause for the change. Of course this doesn’t hold up by “This Slide of Paradise” when they should have gotten a third actor to make this explanation work.

“Dinoslide”- If you return to a world where you’ve already been, shouldn’t you be stuck there? The dimensional window for that world already came and you took it. You can return, but you should be there for 29.7 years minus the time you were gone.

“Slither”- I didn’t really think of it as Quinn leaving the group for Kira so much as leaving sliding- she was an excuse. Also, we (me included) assume that Wade and Maggie spent their “vacation” together. They could have spent their time alone and met up at the airport to wait for the guys. As for them splitting up: I understand their need for space, but nothing about this planet said it was safe enough for them to even go down the street without staying together, much less put a plane’s worth of distance between them.

I don’t understand why the idea of putting Quinn and Maggie together seemed like a good idea. Aside from the backstory they created for Maggie making her completely unsuited to Quinn, I thought Fox “broke up” Quinn and Wade so that they could have random hook ups with guest stars. But now, instead of the slow, sweet buildup of friendship turning into something more, we get virtual strangers supposedly lusting after each other.

124

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

Anyone can relate to feeling homesick. There is absolutely nobody who can relate to being the chosen one in an interdimensional war that has turned your adopted Earth into an alien battleground and sent you searching for a mysterious superweapon that might liberate your world. That's just nonsense.

I see elements of both The Terminator and The Matrix in your statement and everybody LOVED those! Of course they too were turned "into something *incredibly* convoluted. "

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hmm. Apples and oranges?

I honestly can't figure the Quinn/Maggie thing out. Jerry O'Connell, in his youth, was a girl-crazy, skirt-chasing, ridiculously horny young man with a long, long, long, long, long list of sexual conquests. He was constantly bragging about his hookups to reporters. From an armchair psychology standpoint, it's clear he was compensating for his youth where he was overweight and unattractive. In Season 3, Jerry played Quinn as ridiculously flirtatious.

But for whatever reason, Jerry seems totally incapable of conveying interest in Kari Wuhrer. Which is very odd, considering she's just his type -- although a bit older. Jerry would have been 22 - 23 while Kari was 29 - 30 -- is it that Kari was (theoretically) an adult while Jerry was, mentally, about 16? Is it that Jerry was attracted to girls as opposed to women? And he saw Kari as an adult as opposed to someone at his level?

Not sure. It's just very, very strange. You'd think sexual attraction would be pretty easy for Jerry to play or fake, but he can't seem to do it in late Season 3. There is no heat or tension between Jerry and Kari; Jerry can't even pretend to be attracted to her.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

"Common Ground" isn't bad. Chris Black writes a decent script. I liked how Cory observed that Kromanus dies to save the sliders, but it's unclear if he was trying to keep them alive out of gratitude or because he was loyal to the Dynasty. It's pretty solid although the direction is poorly considered.

"Virtual Slide" is perfectly fun. I agree with Cory and Tom that Maggie providing information about the sliding machine is nonsensical and there's no way the script justifies anything she gave up as useful.

But I will argue that the idea of stealing slide-tech info from Maggie *was* perfectly workable -- in that Maggie may have been in the room when Dr. Jensen was working on the concept and may have subconsciously remembered details of his work that the VR could bring to the surface. "Virtual Slide" is a fun, enjoyable sci-fi hour. I liked it. Keith Damron was a promising writer.

Yeah. They're fine. Decent hours of TV. Oh my GOD this show has gone to crap. Uh, but first, I think I should answer Tom and Cory's question.

How the Sliding Machine and Timer Work
Tom and Cory got confused by a plot point in "Virtual Slide": why is it that the sliders, upon missing the slide window, are stranded by 29.7 years? If Quinn can just build a new sliding machine and timer to bypass the 29.7 limit, why can't the existing timer be reconfigured to do the same? Is the timer connected to the sliding machine?

They say it makes no sense. I would say that the onscreen evidence is confusing. Here's how I see it:

Think of parasailing. You've got a parachute helping you float in the sky while tethered to a boat that's tugging you forward, cutting a path through the water and giving you forward motion in a straight line. The boat is moving you forward.

The boat, in this metaphor, is the sliding machine. Then your connection to the boat is cut. You're still in the air, you still have some momentum, but you now you've lost direction.

For whatever reason, you have some cylinders of compressed air. You can keep moving. But you can't create the same thrust that the boat gave you and your direction is now subject to wind and gravity and is now oriented in towards the path of least resistance. The timer is the cylinders propelling you, but due to the loss of the boat, your direction will be random.

I don't think the timer can be connected to the sliding machine back home simply because of story reasons. If there's some sort of interdimensional transmission, that means that any interruption or interference or alteration to the machine back home prevents the timer from working. That's too big a hole to fill, so it's best if the timer works independently.

Okay, maybe that wasn't such a great metaphor; let's try another one. The sliding machine is a sledgehammer that smashed through the walls of the interdimension, allowing you to slide at will; the timer is a tiny scalpel that lets you cut through weak points of occasional convergence between dimensional walls, with the entry vortex creating another weakness that the timer can track, letting the sliders know when that weak point will be fit to create an exit to the next world.

If that point is missed, the timer's processor will need 29.7 years to calculate and create another weak point. Dear God, this is terrible. Somebody help me out here. Temporal Flux! This is your moment! This is your moment!

Is Season 4 A New Show?
Tom and Cory's main defence of Season 4 is that this is a new show and shouldn't be compared to anything in Seasons 1 - 3.

I would not be averse to a new version of SLIDERS, but I strongly disagree that this is in any way a new show. This is, instead, a clumsy, crippled, mutilated version of the old show. It's Season 1 - 2 but without imagination, skill, research or inventiveness. It's using Season 1 - 2 ideas but with the glaring impression that the Season 4 showrunners don't actually understand the ideas they're using.

"Genesis," Prophets and Loss" and "Common Ground" all use Seasons 1 - 2 as a template, but mishandle everything from Seasons 1 - 2.

It's a popular (and accurate) criticism of SLIDERS that most episodes copy the second half of the Pilot; the sliders encounter a dystopian regime, fall in with the resistance, achieve victory, depart.

Formulaic? Yes. But it works -- until now. "Genesis" has no victory -- which means that when the sliders triumph in "Prophets and Loss" and "Common Ground," you wonder why they don't liberate their home Earth as well. As repetitive and contrived as the formula may be, it was uplifting and inspiring -- but now it's just hypocritical and incoherent.

The sliders meeting the resistance is a simple, easy, in some ways lazy plot, used heavily in Seasons 1 - 2 -- and Season 4 depends on it just as much. But "Genesis" destroyed their ability to execute it properly.

The show is also using a Season 2 concept -- the Kromaggs -- and the Season 4 team doesn't understand how to use the Kromaggs.

The first problem is the makeup. It's terrible. The Kromaggs don't look menacing; they look like actors in clumsy prosthetics and the actors use very forced and overly mannered line deliveries to convey their alien natures. It's just awkward to look at.

There's also the fact that "Invasion" wisely kept the Kromaggs at a distance, the Kromaggs barely speaking, only glimpsed in brief scenes, using pawns to communicate with the sliders. "Genesis" and "Common Ground" parade the Kromaggs in front of us as mouthy, chatty, ranting thugs. This is a huge mistake.

That said -- the Season 4 team (probably) understood what the Kromaggs really are underneath the guile and mystique. The Kromaggs are just thugs and monsters. That's all there is to them in "Invasion," too -- but "Invasion" handles it correctly.

The sliders only encounter the military aspects of the culture and are completely in the Kromaggs' power the entire time. The emphasis is on the Kromaggs as manipulators who play sadistic mind games with cruel and twisted lies.

I can't say that "Genesis" and "Common Ground"'s Kromaggs are wrong. Backstabbing, violent, warlike, savage, cruel creatures -- that's what they were in "Invasion," but now there is no distance. No mystique. The sliders are beating Kromaggs up, having conversations with them, tricking Kromaggs into using their death machines on themselves -- and the result is that the Kromaggs are so overt, so up-close, so in focus that their one-dimensional silliness is glaring.

Every Kromagg in Season 4 talks the same way, has the same obsessive fixation on racial superiority -- and I don't buy it. I don't buy that every Kromagg behaves in the same manner, but I especially don't believe in these cartoonish behaviours and more problematically, I can tell that the actors also don't believe in what they're doing.

Not a single Season 4 Kromagg actor has any conviction or ease in their performance; every movement, line and expression is practised and stilted. These poor actors are in an impossible situation due to the scripts, costumes and makeup.

"Invasion" doesn't declare that all Kromaggs are warlike, savage monsters -- which would be as ridiculous as declaring that all women are obsessed with shoes. We only see a Kromagg military operation. For all we know, there are Kromagg poets. Kromagg objectors to the war effort. Kromaggs seeking to stop the conquest. We don't know, but it's possible -- until Season 4 declares that all Kromaggs are the same. Season 4 uses a Season 2 concept and totally mishandles it.

I have only written one Kromagg story -- and I'm not even a very good writer of fiction. Did you read those awful metaphors up there? But one thing I very quickly decided was that the Kromagg in my story would not speak. In my story, the Kromagg menaces Quinn, but always morphs into different human personas in order to deliver dialogue, and deliberately chooses forms to intimidate Quinn. I don't entirely know why I did this, but it was most definitely a reaction against the Season 4 Kromaggs.

The weird, weird, weird thing -- is that Season 4 could easily have been a whole new show. This is SLIDERS, for god's sake. It would not have been difficult to cut ties with the past, most of which had been severed anyway with Arturo's death and Wade and Rembrandt sent home. But this so-called new show seems more interested in destroying the old one instead of creating something new.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hear Hear!

On the Timer, Home World Machine and Window/Portals.....

I have some theories.

Earth 00: The original Quartets Home.
Tech is Early 90's.
Power Generation and Storage is not very developed.
Computation Power was improving but nothing like what we have now.

I think the Original Machine not only brute forced a connection to tbe place between Realities allowing Portal Creation, Mathematical models to calculate patterns in flux and also Power Aqcuisition/Leeching/Recharging.

The Timer has a Capacitor which needs something BIG like his Basement Device but once that first Tear/Portal is made the Capacitor can Tap into that Layer of Reality/Multi-Reality/Inter-Reality?

Something analogous to Tesla Wireless Power Transfer or on the Fictional Side maybe akin to Babylon 5's Hyperspace Energy Taps like the Vorlons and Shadows used?

I feel this theory is a little like a Syphon. You apply force/Power initially to kickstart the process of drawing water but once started Gravity and Inertia do the rest for you. Theoretical Fusion Power is based on gaining a similar Stability and Positive Equation that generates more Power than invested into it's ignition.

I think the Invasion version of a Manta supports this theory.
The Timer and the Manta draw on the same Multiversal Energy to Tap and so can interfere with eachother.
The Manta itself suggests Quinn's Father's theories of Anti Grav based on similar theories and applications of Physics are correct also.
And Anti Grav if possible would be very power hungry as would be those Invasion Episode Energy Weapons.
These Technologies are all tied together in a Sliding related Tech Tree.

And what do we see in Invasion? Bio-Mechanical Craft. Living Technology with Multiversal Transition capability, Energy Weaponry, Anti Gravity Lift and Inertialess Drive Systems that are potentially applicable foe Extra Planetary operation and again I point out Bio-Technology in Material Science for Strength, Self Repair/Healing, Adaptation potentially but crucially and lastly the biggie....

Bio-Computing..... BIO-COMPUTING!!

I cannot stress that enough. If Quinn can calculate a natural Weakness in the Multiversal Barrier with Early 90's Tech... Imagine what could be done with a Modern OTL Touch Pad.... Or.... A Bio Computer?

29 Years? More like 15? Or 10? Or 5? Or....... 1!?

Scary thoughts huh?

Now this is obviously speculation based on what is seen on the shiw but I believe it is likely.

Also this theory promptly Debunks Smarter Quinn's claims in "Other Slide of Darkness" as the Invasion Manta is the Product of a Mature Technology and Society which has pushed it's applications and implementations very far.

If he did provide the Sliding Equations to a Kromagg Earth it was NOT Season 2's Kromagg Homeworld.

Season 2's Kromaggs will always be a very different Group, Society and maybe even Species to the Abominations and Parodies of later Seasons.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Not that I put much stock in trying to iron out the contradictions of SLIDERS' latter years -- but Smarter-Quinn in "The Other Slide of Darkness" was clearly insane and nothing he said could be trusted or taken seriously.

And as obsessive as I am about SLIDERS, I can't offer any real explanation of how it works beyond (laboured) metaphors. Ireactions science is the worst manner of lie in fiction today, created through skimming Wikipedia and randomly choosing words and phrases, seeking to produce technobabble that is an impenetrable fog in the hope that nobody will even try to understand it.

129 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-05 19:22:40)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Season three post Arturo Quinn and episodes.

I don’t think Quinn's characterization was too awful. It was after “The Guardian” that we really start seeing the shift. Real world answer is less Torme more Peckinpah. In universe answer is this is how Quinn deals with the impending death of Arturo- the knowledge of which he had to carry alone for quite some time.

This group has been through everything: Quinn’s been shot, sentence to death three times (including being strapped into the electric chair), almost had his psyche transferred to a robot body, as well as being killed and revived; Wade has survived the Q, been put on a death list, almost overdosed, and nearly drowned; Rembrandt’s been sentenced to death twice, tortured by a psycho, and almost suffocated while carrying another man’s child; and the professor has survived the Q, a political assassination attempt, Logan's faulty wormhole calculations, and uranium enhanced worm cacooning. Not to mention that they were all doomed to die in a world ending event.  Somehow, they all made it through.

The truth is Quinn loved sliding and had everything he could want (except his mom) right there with him: A dad/mentor/intellectual equal; a buddy/potential girlfriend/socio-political equal; and a friend/brother/masculine equal. But when Arturo died, the party was over.

The death of a person you depend on has got to take its toll. Regardless of the Earths they visit or who is along for the ride, the rest of season three would have to be a downer. Although Quinn got the credit, Arturo accomplished the big saves: Arturo created penicillin, Arturo created the atom bomb, Arturo even suggested the Helix Spiral that ultimately allowed the sliders to keep going. Woe be to them without the professor and woe be to us. Not only that, they must all be carrying a lot of survivor’s guilt.

The sort of aimlessness and lack of care that went into the scripts could be interpreted as the grief of the characters- viewers don’t get strong back stories and alt-history because the sliders don’t really care to discover it. They just lost their anchor, their rock. Yeah, they want to get home but while the happy homecoming envisioned at the end of the pilot and the beginning of PTSS was never reality, now it’s not even a dream.

Don't get me wrong, Quinn's change was too far, too fast and more effort could have gone into alt-history especially when an effort was made. How hard would it have been to give the vampires of “Stoker” a real life illness like Xeroderma Pigmentosum (ultra-sensitivity to light) or one of a host of blood diseases that require constant transfusions and create a scenario around that? Dracula could have still been worked in.

Finally, I know that Rembrandt was suppose be the comic relief, but the professor was the one with the funniest lines! Another reason post Professor episodes are no fun.

130

Re: Rewatch Podcast

omnimercurial wrote:

I think the Original Machine not only brute forced a connection to tbe place between Realities allowing Portal Creation, Mathematical models to calculate patterns in flux and also Power Aqcuisition/Leeching/Recharging.

If the events of "Genesis" are to be taken seriously, then didn't Quinn's birth parents already create a wormhole to his adopted Earth when they dropped him off and left?

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Incoming not outgoing.

Brute Force to allow Timer to link through Portal.

Also I pretty much ignore all that poor script/story.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Tom and Cory remarked that there was nothing to Penny in "Common Ground." No characterization.

Ian McDuffie offered an intriguing thought in his review -- Penny is Wade. Or rather, Rembrandt looks at Penny and all he can see is what happened to Wade and is being done to Wade.

"Rembrandt's blind because he sees Wade in every face he sees. He’s looking for reasons to hate the ‘Maggs when he stalks those corridors, but he’s also looking for Wade. So when he meets Penny, a test subject with pep and strength and youth and a great haircut, all he sees is Wade. So he fights hard to save her, threatening himself, threatening the group, and sure, kind of threatening Penny, too. He’s doing it out of revenge, but also out of shame. He left Wade behind, he says, and there is honest pain in his eyes. But that pain is guiding his mission so fiercely that he can’t see the consequences of his actions. He accuses Quinn of wanting to abandon Rembrandt’s Earth (to which Quinn beautifully replies “it was my Home, too”), and goes on rage-benders trying to avenge every person ever who ever lived.

"Of course, it’s hard to actually see that without looking very, very hard. There’s subtlety in the script, but once it leaves the page it’s lost in an ugly miasma of overscored and overdirected nonsense. Every shot seems to last too long, like it’s waiting for a voiceover that will never come."

http://www.earthprime.com/roulette/we-c … mon-ground

Re: Rewatch Podcast

NDJ wrote:

I don’t think Quinn's characterization was too awful. It was after “The Guardian” that we really start seeing the shift. Real world answer is less Torme more Peckinpah. In universe answer is this is how Quinn deals with the impending death of Arturo- the knowledge of which he had to carry alone for quite some time. The death of a person you depend on has got to take its toll. Don't get me wrong, Quinn's change was too far, too fast

While many, many fans have tried to wrangle Jerry's performances and the clumsy characterization into some kind of logical arc, it's never made sense to me in an in-universe perspective. I don't think it ever will.

We've seen what Quinn Mallory is like when he's depressed and... well, it's not like late Season 3 or Season 4. I think Quinn, when depressed, actually hides it with efforts to ride the momentum of desperation. The Torme/Weiss Quinn faces the horror of discovering the Professor will die by trying to mentor his younger self. The Torme/Weiss Quinn reacts to Wade's apparent death by grimly accepting he'll have to carry on without her. And while losing Arturo would have been tough -- we *already* had an example of how Quinn reacted to losing his (real) father and it wasn't like "Slither." Which is not to in any way diminish how awful Quinn can and will feel -- I'm just saying that depression and grief are a little more subtle if this character is written correctly.

In real-life, Jerry O'Connell is super-charming and winning and endearing. In SLIDERS, the Jerry O'Connell megawatt smile is a falsehood. Jerry O'Connell is simply what Quinn allows you to see of him. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even a depressed Quinn puts on a pretty good show. The abrasive loon of late Season 3 and the emotionless weirdo of Season 4 aren't Quinn at all -- just the actor playing a different role that happens to have the same name.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I agree with ireactions about Quinn's depression, to a point. There are some very good points there, and I definitely thought he was out of character in late S3 and what I've seen of S4. That said, there's a difference, too, between how a person would face horror the first few times and how they face it after they've been traumatised over, and over, and over again.

As Wade puts it so aptly in The Breeder (one of the reasons I can't bring myself to hate that episode),

When I first started sliding, all I saw was adventure. Now all I seem to see is death.

After a certain point, you can't keep reacting the same way to the trauma being piled on top of you. I think the main thing Quinn lost in late S3 was a sense of purpose, a reason to keep caring. In The Exodus Part 2, he says to Arturo, coldly, brutally, "You're assuming that I care."

That was... quite out of character for the Quinn we know, but it also makes sense for someone who's been pushed and pushed and pushed until they just shut down. With Arturo terminally ill, he's being pushed even further into the leadership role, and it's too much responsibility. Remmy blames him and won't let up about how much. Wade is distant. Quinn's failing. This isn't fun any more.

And I think it reflects, rather brutally but poetically, the state of the show at that point. The cast weren't having fun either. In the beginning this was an adventure; now they just see loss and the death of a show they once loved. They're going through the motions. The atmosphere is grim. A person can only take so much.

I hate that that happened to the show, I really do. But in a purely poetic, literary sense, I like that art reflected life. Wade got off some brutally honest comments about the whole thing before she had to go, and they speak far too well to what was happening at the time. Quinn doesn't care because he doesn't care. Remmy, dear Remmy, sucks it up and soldiers on, determined to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; his courage is beautiful. Rarely are shows so raw and so true to life.

Yeah, late S3 and early S4 were a mess. But life sometimes is. They were a mess made out of something real, and I kind of admire them for that.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hunnh. I found that outline that a poster, KerrAvon (not sliders5125) wrote as a follow-up to Season 3's cliffhanger where Arturo stars in a sequel to "This Slide of Paradise"! But first:

There was one poster on this Bboard, awhile back -- his posts have most definitely been deleted from existence. Let's call him Jensen. Jensen declared that he was going to save SLIDERS because he had the magic words -- more specifically, Jensen had the magic numbers. Numbers that, in a specific sequence, formed Tracy Torme's phone number. He proclaimed that he would be contacting Torme to do something about a SLIDERS revival.

He followed up by posting his shocking, heartbreaking, tragic discovery that phoning Tracy Torme and telling him to revive SLIDERS wouldn't actually bring about that happy outcome as Torme doesn't control the rights to SLIDERS. (I think, as creator, he shares about 10 per cent with Robert K. Weiss.) Jensen, in the course of this phone call, attempted to pitch his ideas to Torme. Jensen told Torme that the best way to revive SLIDERS would be:

  • To do a new version of Season 4 set in 1998

  • To follow up on the Season 3 cliffhanger with a remake of the Kromagg Invasion of Earth and the sliders' search for a superweapon

  • Also explain why the Season 4 Kromaggs looked different from "Invasion" by saying the Season 4 Kromaggs were the foot soldiers

  • To have Wade return to Season 4 a quarter of the way in as a brainwashed villain for the rest of the season

  • To then reveal that the Earth in "Genesis" wasn't the Earth in the Pilot

  • To have a huge Kromagg War blowout to end the series.

Try to imagine Tracy sitting through this phone call.

Jensen proceeded to lament that Tracy seemed resistant to hearing anymore of these ideas and that it was a real shame and did anyone on this message board have an agent so they could properly pitch these ideas? Torme, said Jensen, declined to hear more without an agent involved. Jensen then declared that clearly, SLIDERS was on its way back and Torme was clearly keen to do some SLIDERS stories if only someone would please get Jensen an agent.

Message board posters had many questions for Jensen. Why did he want to have a 2014 revival of SLIDERS set in 1998? Why did he wish to explain plot holes in Season 4 if his story was designed to replace Season 4 with his own version? Why did he want to revive a series loved for its characters and make one of them an evil villain? How did he expect the 2014-era actors to play their 1998 characters? Why was his pitch for SLIDERS devoid of any ideas for parallel Earths? Why did he want Tracy Torme to write this story when Torme has not even seen Season 4 and couldn't write a Season 4 Kromagg war epic even if he were forced to? If he didn't have any interest in the characters or parallel Earths, why was he trying to revive SLIDERS?

At this point, the web host crashed and the conversation ended. Let's move on.

KerrAvon wrote:

some fanfic of my own as to how Seasson 4 should have been done:

Say they shitcan  the mysoginist, woman hating, pig Peckingpah and renew the contracts of JRD, Lloyd and Wuhrer...
Wade and Rembrandt land but they are not home: turns out that the world visited by Quinn and Maggie in EXODUS pt 1 was not the homeworld but Azure gate Bridge world (Hell, Quinn can't recognize the homeworld anyway, several times he's been mistaken)

They are debating whether to return to THIS SLIDE OF PARADISE world when they meet up with Autoro. Turns out that the one who slid in PTSS was indeed his evil double and it is he who is killed on Maggie's homeworld by Rickman.  Auturo has spent the last few months perfecting sliding and has constructed his own timer complete with wormhold tracking device. Quinn had put the Rickman timer in Rembrandt's pocket prior to shoving him and Wade into the Vortex and armed with the data they decide to return to vargas' compound. Auturo wants to check and double check before sliding and this takes a few weeks...

Finally, they are ready and they slide to the THIS SLIDE OF PARADISE hellhole world.  They reach Vargas' compund and find it in ruins.  The hybrids are all dead. they were killed off by simple diseases that they had no natural immunity for after all the exposure to Rickman and the other sliders.  Using the tracking device the sliders set out in search of Quinn  and Msggie.

The last three weeks Quinn and Maggie has been having some adventures of their own. They finally land on a world where Dr. Jensen is alive and well. Seems that on this world it is Maggie who was injured in the skiing accident and she is paralyzed. depressed she convinces our Maggie to help her end her life.  Maggie realizes her love for Stephen and decide to remain with him. Quinn begs her to stay with him but she refuses.

Heartbroken, Quinn prepares to slide but a vortex opens and the other three emerge. they have a tearful reunion. After much debate they have to make a decision: should they return to Azure Gate Bride World or continue searching for the homeworld?  They decide to continue the search....

This could have been handled in a 5-8 episode arc. Some episodes would be dedicated to Quinn and Maggie's adventures while some episode would be about the other three. Anyway just some thoughts, of what could have been...

Okay. I remember it being a lot longer -- but maybe what I mis-remembered (besides the poster) was the idea that this... outline... be executed over the course of eight episodes. I also mis-remembered the content; I thought there were scenes of Arturo fighting animal human hybrids. There aren't. I feel like this outline really tries to convert hammering the CTRL+Z on the keyboard into a logical sequence of events. It's trying to play fair.

It is also weirdly obsessed with continuity. I think there are three ways to use continuity. One is to seek to use continuity to try to make multiple stories feel like one big story by highlighting their connections and telling sequels. Another way is to feel the need to address previously established plot points individually in an effort to follow-up or reverse them. And then there's using continuity in an effort to create a sense of shared experience for both characters and the audience.

There is something completely derivative and unimaginative and crushingly dull about doing a sequel to "This Slide of Paradise" -- but that's not what this author is trying to do here, not really. This writer is, instead, seeking to confront the horror of that episode and expel it, leaving the sliders purified and renewed at the end of this exercise. And I kind of admire that. There's genuine interest and respect for the characters in this outline. There's a real desire to put the characters in difficult situations -- like being forced to wander through "This Slide of Paradise."

Anyway. Arturo is totally going to fight animal human hybrids in SLIDERS REBORN. I know it's crazy. I've been warned that this is not going to turn out well. But -- I really think I can pull this off AND make it feel like a Season 1/2 episode. And if I can't -- Tom and Cory will give a detailed account how it all went so horribly wrong in their podcast! :-D

Re: Rewatch Podcast

intangirble wrote:

I agree with ireactions about Quinn's depression, to a point. There are some very good points there, and I definitely thought he was out of character in late S3 and what I've seen of S4. That said, there's a difference, too, between how a person would face horror the first few times and how they face it after they've been traumatised over, and over, and over again.

The main problem is that all the points in the latter seasons where Quinn's behaviour is beneath contempt and hateful and repulsive are also points where the character work and story make no sense.

"The Exodus": Why exactly does Quinn refuse to let his friends go home? The script provides no explanation whatsoever -- and also offers no reasoning to establish that home is really home after the experience of "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome."

"Slither": Why exactly does Quinn want to abandon sliding for Kyra when a) he is in pursuit of the Professor's killer and b) that killer has his home coordinates?

"Genesis": Why does Quinn have no interest in tracking down Wade, after three/four years of regularly getting separated from his friends and rescuing them from their captors? The same question must be asked of Rembrandt.

"O Brother Where Art Thou": Why is Quinn so insistent that Colin abandon his whole life to go sliding? The timer can store coordinates and open gateways to previously visited Earths; why does Quinn tear this person away from his life?

"Mother and Child": See "Genesis." Also: if there's a virus that can stop Kromaggs, why doesn't Quinn try to bring it to Earth Prime? Why doesn't Rembrandt?

"Revelation": Quinn has the means of bypassing the Slidecage. So why doesn't he open a gateway to his homeworld? Quinn asks his parents for the superweapon -- but he declares that Rembrandt will be returning to his home Earth without Quinn? Why doesn't Quinn care to accompany Rembrandt for this weapon Quinn wanted to look for in "Genesis"? Why is Rembrandt unaffected by this? Why does Rembrandt approach Isaac Clarke for the weapon instead of the Mallorys who built it? And even if this isn't Kromagg Prime, why aren't Quinn and Rembrandt interested in bringing this Earth's anti-Kromagg weapon to Earth Prime?

So, in every single case where Quinn's characterization takes a downward turn, the story around him is also incoherently nonsensical and illogical with glaring errors that make it impossible to work out what's supposed to be going on.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

This Slide of Paradise was a bad episode but the real shame is that if you break it up into parts there are interesting premises for Alternate Earths that could have been good.... Just not in this Episode.

Western US Coast a series of Archipeligo's and Island Chains.
That could be interesting. From our worlds Galapagos Islands we know such places can be great sources of Species Diversifivation and Specialisation.
Also Travel if you want to get around is less running around per usual Sliders schtick but instead swimming, boats and aircraft.

Ethics
1: Slavery, Caste Systems, Dehumanisation.
2: Transgenic Research with No Limits.
3: Engineered Sapient Life Creation and it's impacts.

These could have been far better explored.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

138 (edited by NDJ 2015-11-07 20:50:16)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I didn’t want to get ahead of the podcast, so I originally only addressed season three episodes. But here goes:

ireactions wrote:

"The Exodus": Why exactly does Quinn refuse to let his friends go home? The script provides no explanation whatsoever -- and also offers no reasoning to establish that home is really home after the experience of "Post Traumatic Slide Syndrome."

You’re right. There is no reason, if Quinn truly believes that he just visited Earth Prime (which is part of the premise for the rest of the show), that Wade and Rembrandt can’t go home now. Quinn is being horribly selfish-but this is not out of character. Any time he has advanced warning of losing someone, this is what he does. He didn’t want a repeat of what happened in PTSS where everybody started doing their own thing and getting back to their own lives. Quinn is friendly and personable, but he is basically an introvert. What is he going to do without these people in his life day in and day out? And if Wade and Rembrandt go home with a few days head start- he’s pretty much lost them.

ireactions wrote:

"Slither": Why exactly does Quinn want to abandon sliding for Kyra when a) he is in pursuit of the Professor's killer and b) that killer has his home coordinates?

Quinn was never in a real hurry to get home. And as Wade said, what are they going to do with Rickman when they find him- hold him down and kill him? They also couldn’t just strand him on a random Earth leaving him to kill at will. We all lament the mess that is “This Slide of Paradise” but it did give them a way to get rid of Rickman without killing him and there is no guilt about leaving him behind. It was just a bonus that he ended up killing himself!

ireactions wrote:

"Genesis": Why does Quinn have no interest in tracking down Wade, after three/four years of regularly getting separated from his friends and rescuing them from their captors? The same question must be asked of Rembrandt.

I wouldn’t say Quinn has no interest in tracking down Wade- getting Wade and Rembrandt back was the first part of the episode! And during his interrogation, Wade was the only thing Quinn reacted to. But let’s face it, Wade is lost in the multiverse. It took Quinn three months to find the Earth he sent Wade and Rembrandt to and he had the information to track them. So at this point, what can he do about Wade? He couldn't even save his mother and she was right in front of him.

ireactions wrote:

"O Brother Where Art Thou": Why is Quinn so insistent that Colin abandon his whole life to go sliding? The timer can store coordinates and open gateways to previously visited Earths; why does Quinn tear this person away from his life?

First, Quinn is selfish. Second, he did think he was doing the right thing. Colin was not supposed to grow up there and Colin’s life was somewhat lonely and sad. The girl he was in love with was going to marry someone else and the town’s people wanted to kill him- and not for the first time. He’s unappreciated and unloved and Quinn was giving him an out. If you consider what happened to Colin along the way (events that Quinn had little control over), then Quinn seems like the ultimately douche for taking his brother away from paradise. But if you look at just the episode, then Quinn was taking his brother home to their parents.

ireactions wrote:

"Mother and Child": See "Genesis." Also: if there's a virus that can stop Kromaggs, why doesn't Quinn try to bring it to Earth Prime? Why doesn't Rembrandt?

First, looking for the planet where the Kromaggs sent Wade almost got them caught. If they weren’t looking in the computer, they would not have aroused suspicion. That’s hardly forgetting about her.

Second, Quinn and Rembrandt DID ask Christina’s father for the weapon and he said no. Colin and Rembrandt started doing research to find out about the weapon but before they could find out anything or formulate a plan to break into the facility (as if they’d know what to look for), the Kromagg commander showed up. Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down). 

ireactions wrote:

"Revelation": Quinn has the means of bypassing the Slidecage. So why doesn't he open a gateway to his homeworld? Quinn asks his parents for the superweapon -- but he declares that Rembrandt will be returning to his home Earth without Quinn? Why doesn't Quinn care to accompany Rembrandt for this weapon Quinn wanted to look for in "Genesis"? Why is Rembrandt unaffected by this? Why does Rembrandt approach Isaac Clarke for the weapon instead of the Mallorys who built it? And even if this isn't Kromagg Prime, why aren't Quinn and Rembrandt interested in bringing this Earth's anti-Kromagg weapon to Earth Prime?

Quinn THINKS he has the means to bypass the Slidecage, but clearly, he does not. This is not addressed in script but is clearly the only explanation. I can forgive them not trying sooner because maybe he just figured it out during that month long wait.  Also, Rembrandt and Quinn ARE interested in using that anti-Kromagg weapon on Earth Prime but they don’t know what it is, the only people they know won’t give it to them, they are being hunted by the police, and they only have a limited amount of time before they slide.

As for the rest, you got me. In “Genesis,” Quinn says “I’ll find her or die trying” when talking about his mother and “We’ll be back. You can count on it.” Yet as soon as he walks into the home of these people- who are strangers- he forgets about everyone and everything he ever knew! I don’t know why:

-Rembrandt goes to ask Clark for something the Mallorys should have.
-Quinn won’t get off his ass and ensure Rembrandt has the weapon before he leaves.
-Rembrandt doesn’t punch Quinn when Quinn declares his journey is over.

There are instances in other episodes that show Quinn is tired of sliding but so is Rembrandt and Rembrandt’s not bailing! I agree, Quinn's characterization here is irretrievably bad. He is punished in the next episode.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Regarding "Genesis" and "Mother and Child" -- I think Quinn and Rembrandt would have relentlessly hammered the Kromagg facilities with attacks on their computer systems until they had a trail on Wade. They would not have stopped until they died. As for the Kromaggs wiping the sliders' memories of the virus or the Slidecage equations not working -- I honestly think that once you're left with making up unwritten and unaired scenes to justify the story, it's pretty clear that the story is broken. As for Quinn being selfish, not in a hurry to go home or to catch his mentor's killer, being a bad person -- dear God.

WARNING: The following post contains ANGER because I am absolutely furious. However. Please be aware that my fury is directed towards someone's opinions and thoughts as opposed to the someone who is opining and thinking them. I mean, you can be pissed off with a person's opinion while still liking the person, right?

I get very upset -- I get incredibly angry -- when fans portray Quinn as a sociopathic monster. I'm not sure which one makes me angrier; the show doing this or the fans doing it afterwards -- Ian's blog of "Revelations" where he describes Quinn as a bad person who isn't worth your time infuriated me almost as much as the episode.

I'm also torqued about this because I asked a fellow fan, recently, if he had any opinion on whether Quinn and Wade might be a couple in 2015 and he responded with a response similar to what's above: declaring that Quinn Mallory is a piece of trash and of course Wade wouldn't want him. It pissed me off. I think what he really meant was that Wade wouldn't want to marry Jerry O'Connell.

The reason I get so upset: Quinn is an icon of genre fiction, an analytical science hero who can stand next to Mr. Spock, Sherlock Holmes, Dr. House, Spider-Man, Indiana Jones, Batman and the Fourth Doctor. He is one of the greatest fictional characters created in the twentieth century. Quinn Mallory is a superhero -- his superpower is his superbrain, his ability to improvise absurd and efficient solutions on-the-spot in moments of crisis. A character who is driven by tragedy and loss but emerges from his trials not only intact but renewed and inspired and possesses a revolutionary spirit and a sense of wanderlust and is guided by an impeccable sense of morality and compassion.

And he created sliding. You can do anything with this character, put him in any kind of story in any kind of role. He can be a bystander or a hero, a catalyst or a leading figure, a background element or an icon who inspires.

These efforts to declare that the Season 3 - 4 character is the same as the Season 1 - 2 character simply emphasize his character flaws -- his myopia, his impulsive nature, his recklessness -- but declare them to be the whole of his character, seeking to rationalize periods where the character was being written badly as explorations of his darker side, ultimately ending with the conclusion that Quinn is a selfish, hateful, uncaring villain.

This strikes me as astonishingly pointless in the extreme: attempting to rationalize poorly-considered screenwriting for a superb figure of science fiction by saying he was never a hero at all. You've justified Quinn's incoherent trajectory by replacing him with a completely different character.

If Quinn Mallory is so unworthy of our respect, if he is not a force for good, then SLIDERS is and always has been a pointless waste of time and so is this Bboard, the websites, the fanfics, the screenplays, the essays, the blogs and the reviews. Yet, many fans -- in fact, I would say most fans -- take this view of Quinn because it lets them maintain the in-universe perspective. NDJ. Ian McDuffie. Slider_Quinn21. Informant. I list their names not to demonize them, but to observe that I am in a minority (probably of one) when I express my distaste for their rationalizations.

From the in-character perspective, these rationalizations don't build Quinn up as a multifaceted character; they just take away what make him unique and powerful and immortal. In trying to insist that the post-Torme Quinn is the same character that Torme and Weiss created, all you end up doing is destroying what Torme and Weiss created.

And it just infuriates me. Because Quinn is one of the greatest science heroes of television. You can do anything with this character. He does not need to be a refugee from an advanced parallel Earth and a pivotal figure of an interdimensional war. He does not need to be a vengeful hunter pursuing a fugitive, he does not need to be a gunslinging warrior, he does not need to be a callous cowboy, he does not need to be paired up with a Baywatch babe, he does not need a convoluted origin story.

And he most definitely does not need to be a man who refuses to let his friends go home and isn't interested in bringing his mentor's killer to justice and is indifferent to his friend being raped and is unconcerned about everyone he knew back home being enslaved and murdered. None of that deepens the Quinn Mallory character at all. None of that touches upon what makes him special. That's just drug addiction, alcoholism, family tragedy and depression talking, most of it David Peckinpah's.

In fact, it's not even deliberate. All of that is entirely *accidental*, filmed and aired because the actor was hungover that day. Because the scripts weren't properly reviewed. Because rehearsals were slapdash. Because the writers saw screenwriting as something to do between Solitaire binges. (That's not an exaggeration.)

Quinn is a very simple character to use. All Quinn needs is to be put in crazy, bizarre, ludicrous situations of intense risk and danger to life and sanity and to come up with clever, on-the-spot solutions to save the day. That's it. That's all you have to do. If you are having trouble coming up with plausible ways for the characters to advance the plot, use Quinn's genius to fast-forward the process. That's what this character was built to do. He cuts through narrative like a knife cuts through butter.

There's also the fact that all of these efforts to demonize Quinn both onscreen and after the fact make no sense whatsoever. Because if Quinn were really selfish and lazy and uncaring, he would not be a slider. He would find some paradise world and retire. That's what Jerry O'Connell would do with sliding, and the constant inability of fans to distinguish between actor and character is absolutely maddening and infuriating for me. That's what I see here, in these rationalizations. In these attempts to explain the inexplicable. A conflation of actor and character.

In ireactions-world -- which you need not take seriously and where absolutely nobody but me lives -- there is Quinn Mallory as created by Torme and Weiss. And then there is a second role with the same name and actor but written with little thought and care by David Peckinpah, Bill Dial, Keith Damron, Steven Stoliar.

One is an icon of genre fiction, an analytical science hero. And the other is a character also played by Jerry O'Connell, an actor who has played many roles, including Woody Hoyt, Andrew Clemens, Charlie Corbone and Phil Ohlmyer.

Jerry O'Connell is not Quinn Mallory. Jerry is just the mask that Quinn wears.

In my mind, to argue that the Season 3 - 4 character is the same as Season 1 - 2 is the equivalent of claiming that Jerry's CROSSING JORDAN and CAMP WILDER characters are the same person as well, except this is far more destructive. And if these analyses serve only to tear Quinn down, then they're pointless and useless. Admittedly, I say this as someone trying to write Quinn and therefore have a vested interest in seeing the character as a going concern. Which, as a goal in itself, is completely insane, so feel free not to take any of this into account.

I have really, really, really tried -- on two separate occasions -- to rationalize S1-2 Quinn with S3  - 4 Quinn. When writing Quinn Mallory in stories, I have always left myself open to the possibility that the post-Torme characterization can be rationalized. When writing "Slide Effects," I wrote that Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo would witness the moment in "Mother and Child" where Rembrandt says they have to go find Wade and Jerry delivers, "I don't know if we have enough time" with absolutely no emotion.

I wrote in _______________ in the outline for Quinn's reaction. I decided: when actually scripting that scene, Quinn would say whatever came naturally. He could explain himself. He could justify himself. I left it up to the character. And when I got to that page of the script, Quinn's explanation was that the scenario was part of a Kromagg mental simulation and he was subconsciously aware that the events he was experiencing weren't real and that was the point where he no longer believed in the situations he was living. I didn't plan that. I put Quinn in that scene, and that was what he had to say for himself. When writing REBORN, I again put Quinn in the same situation and got largely the same answer; he didn't recognize what he was seeing. Wasn't him.

Again. This is just my personal opinion and you will, of course, note that this entire post is almost like I'm trying to defend Quinn as though he's a personal acquaintance. As though he's my loved and treasured friend. From reading this post, you might think that I have a relationship with Quinn in the way some people have relationships with Jesus. You'd be right.

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NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

ireactions wrote:

Regarding "Genesis" and "Mother and Child" -- I think Quinn and Rembrandt would have relentlessly hammered the Kromagg facilities with attacks on their computer systems until they had a trail on Wade. They would not have stopped until they died. As for the Kromaggs wiping the sliders' memories of the virus or the Slidecage equations not working -- I honestly think that once you're left with making up unwritten and unaired scenes to justify the story, it's pretty clear that the story is broken. As for Quinn being selfish, not in a hurry to go home or to catch his mentor's killer, being a bad person -- dear God.

First- I never said the Kromaggs wiped people's memory- I said they messed with people's minds. This is an established fact in the series-starting in season 2. What kind of show has to outline every little detail, every single time as if the viewer has no common sense?

Second- I have never and would never say Quinn was a bad person. I don't think being selfish (wanting to keep the people you love in your life), not wanting to go home (having the adventure end and having nothing to do but deal with your loss) and not wanting to catch his mentor's killer (not wanting to kill someone) makes him a bad person. I think he's made some serious mistakes- this makes him a human being.

I love Quinn no matter how you slice him: Seasons 1-2 Quinn, seasons 3-4 Quinn, or seasons 1-4 Quinn. Please don’t twist my words to suit your mood.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

NDJ wrote:

I have never and would never say Quinn was a bad person. I don't think being selfish (wanting to keep the people you love in your life), not wanting to go home (having the adventure end and having nothing to do but deal with your loss) and not wanting to catch his mentor's killer (not wanting to kill someone) makes him a bad person.

OF COURSE NOT WANTING TO KILL RICKMAN WOULD MAKE QUINN A BAD PERSON.

Rickman is a serial killer. He's travelling to worlds where no one knows of him and no one can be prepared for him. Every moment the sliders don't take him down is a moment where he's going to kill someone. So, yes -- the sliders not pursuing him or even considering giving up on tracking him down is indeed a moral crisis point -- Rickman's an interdimensional serial killer and they're the only ones who can follow him. If Quinn considers abandoning the pursuit for Rickman, then he is responsible for Rickman's subsequent victims -- every single one -- because he decided to quit trying to take this lunatic down. There is absolutely no moral quandary about killing Rickman -- he's an unrepentant murderer. That and having an English accent are his only character traits.

If you know that someone is a murderer and you decide it's not your problem and let them go off to kill more people, then yes, you are a bad person. The legalities are fuzzy; failure to report a crime is a misdemeanor in some states while a felony in states with mandatory reporting laws. But do the vagaries of the law absolve anyone from an incredibly obvious moral responsibility? Is this seriously up for debate? Is this even a question?

Failing to report a murder is wrong. Knowing in advance that someone will be murdered and declining to make efforts to prevent it is wrong. This is something I never thought I'd have to say on a SLIDERS message board.

And if Quinn knows that someone is going to be murdered and decides it's not his problem because he could hang out with Kyra, then YES, he is a bad person and I have been wasting my time with him.

My friend Val, when she was 12, discovered that this college guy she was friends with had been raping girls. Not her, of course -- she was a little too old for his tastes. Val proceeded to beat the rapist senseless with a toaster, locked him in a bathroom and fled for a police station. I have never been prouder of her. If she had shrugged it off and gone home to watch MY LITTLE PONY, she would have been responsible for every victim that man went on to rape.

Holy shit. I really never thought I'd have to have this discussion with anyone, anywhere, ever. Well. Thanks for that.

"The Exodus" makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you twist Quinn's character into knots. Let's say that Quinn has, for reasons that are incomprehensible, decided he's not going to let Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo get home. Arturo would have knocked Quinn unconscious or sat on him while Wade and Rembrandt tied him up, then they'd roll him into the vortex home. Furthermore, Rickman is, throughout the story, hostile and paranoid about the sliders because they threaten his command and his control of the situation; the story provides no motive for Rickman to want to keep the sliders around after they've found a suitable Earth as a settlement. Quinn's behaviour warps the entire story for no reason other than to have the other sliders get angry at him for contrived reasons.

NDJ wrote:
NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

First- I never said the Kromaggs wiped people's memory- I said they messed with people's minds. This is an established fact in the series-starting in season 2. What kind of show has to outline every little detail, every single time as if the viewer has no common sense?

"Wiping memories" / "messed with people's minds" -- hair-splitting. You declare that Kromagg telepathy must be why the sliders didn't try to secure the anti-Kromagg virus in "Mother and Child" -- there is absolutely nothing onscreen to support that assertion. It's not a piece of information subtly communicated; it's not hinted at -- it's not there. At all. The sliders are searching for a weapon to free their home Earth of Kromaggs. They found one in "Mother and Child." And then they leave it. The failure to address this in any fashion is not subtle storytelling that feels little details can be filled in by the viewer's common sense; this is a massive gaping hole in the story that renders the rest of the season incoherent.

There is no reason for the sliders to keep searching for the Kromagg Prime superweapon when a perfectly serviceable countermeasure exists on an Earth that's stored in the timer's coordinates. If the Kromagg erased the sliders' memories/messed with their minds, this absolutely has to be present onscreen or it leaves a glaringly unanswered question that undermines every story that follows.

Oh, and not to go off on a tangent, but if anyone reading this knows of any murderers out there or murders about to take place, CALL THE POLICE. If you don't, you are a horrible person and I will not want to write fanfics about you. Jesus.

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I'm sorry that you think the guy you liken to Batman and Superman would kill someone- because I can't remember a time a superhero ever did that.

I'm also sorry that you think it makes someone a bad person for not wanting to kill someone or would hesitate- even if the person deserves to die. Perhaps you forgot that I did mention that they did need to stop him.

I know what I wrote, I know I meant; and I was not splitting hairs. If you want everything spelled out onscreen for you before you believe it, please remember that 29.7 years wasn't mentioned on screen until season 3.

Clearly you want a fight and I am done giving you one.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

NDJ wrote:

I'm sorry that you think the guy you liken to Batman and Superman would kill someone- because I can't remember a time a superhero ever did that. I'm also sorry that you think it makes someone a bad person for not wanting to kill someone or would hesitate- even if the person deserves to die. Perhaps you forgot that I did mention that they did need to stop him. I know what I wrote, I know I meant; and I was not splitting hairs. If you want everything spelled out onscreen for you before you believe it, please remember that 29.7 years wasn't mentioned on screen until season 3. Clearly you want a fight and I am done giving you one.

You're sorry? You are indeed sorry. I am not sorry.

I am not sorry to tell you that there is NO SCENE in "Mother and Child" where the Kromagg telepathically removes knowledge of the anti-Kromagg virus. It is not in the script. First, you raised the telepathy as a possibility; now you declare it is a certainty. It is not. You just made that up.

I am not sorry to refuse to follow you in your tortured logic where I am somehow at fault for declining to take into account a scene that does not exist outside your imagination. Perhaps you have your own version of "Mother and Child" in your head; I am not obligated to review it, only the version that aired. At least 29.7 had a deleted script page; what have you got? Nothing whatsoever.

I am also extremely not sorry to declare that it is a moral tipping point for Quinn to be blissfully unconcerned with ALL THE PEOPLE Rickman will kill.

I'm not sorry to point out that you defending Quinn for refusing to let his friends go home in "The Exodus" is you declaring that  kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment is okay by you!

I never likened Quinn to Superman. As for Batman, he never needs to kill as demonstrated in an issue of DETECTIVE COMICS Batman put R'as Al Ghul in a mental hospital with faked paperwork to keep the man in a permanent coma.

Superman has superstrength/heat vision/invulnerability/flight/a fortress in the Arctic. Batman has infinite money and over 20 sidekicks and a limitless utility belt of plot convenient gadgets. Quinn had a god-damn TV remote. Of course Rickman should have been killed. If they didn't have the stomach to do it personally, they could have sent him to Earth Prime (where he'd suffocate) or send him back to the military settlement (where his own people would have executed him) or they could have stranded him on some wasteland world where the lack of fresh brain fluid would have seen him die.

Once again -- I am astonished that stopping murderers is any sort of moral conundrum for anyone with even a splinter of conscience, responsibility or concern for their fellow human being.

I congratulate you -- you've achieved three firsts in the SLIDERS community. Lots of posters have said that Quinn's arc across four seasons make sense because he's a bad person -- but you're the first to do that while expressing that you're totally cool with Quinn holding innocent people prisoner and letting murderers run free, and that your dream-journal version of "Mother and Child" is canon.

There are, sadly, people in this world who think it's okay to strip others of their freedom and self-determination. People who see injustice done and choose to turn a blind eye. And people who would rather fabricate scenes in TV episodes rather than admit their argument has some gaping holes. It's a defect of humanity to be concerned with only one's self and to be indifferent to the suffering of others. And to rationalize it, saying we'd all be twisted and mutilated by bad experiences and so too would Quinn.

We shouldn't do that to Quinn. We should not make the sliders more like us. We should be more like them. We should regard the unknown with curiosity and wonder and confront problems with knowledge, strategy and confidence in the power of ideas.

I suspect the reason most fans see no issue with tearing Quinn down is because few, if any, have ever regarded him an iconic superhero; they don't see the precious creation that is being destroyed. And that's fine. That's just a difference of opinion -- but this is the first time I've ever seen anyone declare that kidnapping and enabling of a serial killer is in any way sympathetic or morally defensible.

That's delusional, deranged and diseased -- and you demonstrate precisely why I object so strongly to rationalizing Quinn's Season 3 - 4 behaviour as in-character.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

The producers obviously went too far in losing the original Quinn, and Tom talked about this on a recent cast. But I have to say, I do thing some of the more bolder, action hero Quinn was in order. You can imagine how much a person might change in going through what they went through as Sliders. I would imagine it would cause someone like Quinn to become bolder.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Personally, I think Quinn had gotten as action-oriented as he needed to in "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross" in his multiple fight scenes and physical confrontations. But I don't really think that the willingness to fight or engage in hand to hand combat or gun battles is a sign of progression; the more meaningful growth would be to see Quinn use his intelligence to bypass the need to threaten or attack others. I think Quinn's maturity as the seasons passed should have been shown in higher levels of responsibility and ability -- not in fighting, but rather with sliding technology.

How would he use his knowledge and scientific skills to better the multiverse? To create interdimensional relationships between worlds? To take on larger-scale problems? I think, had Tracy Torme stayed on the show and brought in Marc Scott Zicree, there would have been more variants on the sliding technology: the slidewave, the slidecage, maybe the Combine and other aspects. "Into the Mystic" touched upon interdimensional economics; Zicree approached interdimensional politics.

I also think that part of Quinn's maturity would have been mentoring new characters; as the show progressed, I think new sliders should have been introduced with the originals serving as teachers to the next wave of sliders.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

Personally, I think Quinn had gotten as action-oriented as he needed to in "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross" in his multiple fight scenes and physical confrontations. But I don't really think that the willingness to fight or engage in hand to hand combat or gun battles is a sign of progression; the more meaningful growth would be to see Quinn use his intelligence to bypass the need to threaten or attack others. I think Quinn's maturity as the seasons passed should have been shown in higher levels of responsibility and ability -- not in fighting, but rather with sliding technology.

How would he use his knowledge and scientific skills to better the multiverse? To create interdimensional relationships between worlds? To take on larger-scale problems? I think, had Tracy Torme stayed on the show and brought in Marc Scott Zicree, there would have been more variants on the sliding technology: the slidewave, the slidecage, maybe the Combine and other aspects. "Into the Mystic" touched upon interdimensional economics; Zicree approached interdimensional politics.

I also think that part of Quinn's maturity would have been mentoring new characters; as the show progressed, I think new sliders should have been introduced with the originals serving as teachers to the next wave of sliders.

But, there's no question he would have gotten bolder from his initial character.  You're struggling to survive, he was athletic to begin with, and certainly would have become more of a leader and gained confidence with each "win" he garnered. So I'm simply saying the idea of becoming a bit more action heroish in and of itself isn't necessarily problematic. Just as I would have expected Rembrant to change is well.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I don't disagree, of course. Two of my favourite moments for Rembrandt: his shotgun slinging in "Into the Mystic" and his intimidating the secretary in "Murder Most Foul."

I just think that there is more to being a hero than beating people up. Force and violence are easy. Fists and guns, knives and bombs -- I imagine that there are plenty of potential SLIDERS stories where Quinn would have to use such things. But I would never want to be the default-setting for Quinn. I would never measure a person's worth or competence by how many people he can hurt.

There are times in the series when Quinn's physical inabilities have been nonsensical, most notably in "El Sid" and "The Young and the Relentless." I get that Sid is tough, but it's ludicrous that Quinn is completely unable to defend himself. And Kyle Beck intimidating Quinn and withholding the timer when Quinn is muscled and toned and towers over Kyle -- absurd. I just don't think fighting is particularly interesting as a solution or resolution. Any TV hero can shoot a gun or punch a villain; it's a science hero who can think his way to victory and that's what makes Quinn great.

I'm not saying you can't have Quinn punch and kick and shoot his way out; I'm just saying it doesn't really speak to Quinn Mallory. It's generic. And I don't know how much more you can really showcase Quinn's physicality beyond "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross."

I found myself thinking about this quite heavily when writing SLIDERS REBORN. Jerry is like Tom Cruise in the MISSION IMPOSSIBLE movies. Tom Cruise is jumping onto planes that are taking off, leaping off rooftops, diving out of skyscrapers, and I imagine Quinn being as superhuman if not moreso. But I found it more important, in the fight scenes here and there, to emphasize how Quinn is skillful rather than how Quinn is strong. When captured by two police officers, he slips out of his handcuffs, handcuffs one to a bikerack and knocks the other one unconscious and proceeds to steal their car -- but it's the police radio that's really useful because it helps him dodge the manhunt. That's how I see it -- the physicality is a component, but it's not the defining trait.

Note: Please don't feel obligated to consider REBORN as supporting evidence in our discussions.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

I don't disagree, of course. Two of my favourite moments for Rembrandt: his shotgun slinging in "Into the Mystic" and his intimidating the secretary in "Murder Most Foul."

I just think that there is more to being a hero than beating people up. Force and violence are easy. Fists and guns, knives and bombs -- I imagine that there are plenty of potential SLIDERS stories where Quinn would have to use such things. But I would never want to be the default-setting for Quinn. I would never measure a person's worth or competence by how many people he can hurt.

There are times in the series when Quinn's physical inabilities have been nonsensical, most notably in "El Sid" and "The Young and the Relentless." I get that Sid is tough, but it's ludicrous that Quinn is completely unable to defend himself. And Kyle Beck intimidating Quinn and withholding the timer when Quinn is muscled and toned and towers over Kyle -- absurd. I just don't think fighting is particularly interesting as a solution or resolution. Any TV hero can shoot a gun or punch a villain; it's a science hero who can think his way to victory and that's what makes Quinn great.

I'm not saying you can't have Quinn punch and kick and shoot his way out; I'm just saying it doesn't really speak to Quinn Mallory. It's generic. And I don't know how much more you can really showcase Quinn's physicality beyond "As Time Goes By" and "Double Cross."

I found myself thinking about this quite heavily when writing SLIDERS REBORN. Jerry is like Tom Cruise in the MISSION IMPOSSIBLE movies. Tom Cruise is jumping onto planes that are taking off, leaping off rooftops, diving out of skyscrapers, and I imagine Quinn being as superhuman if not moreso. But I found it more important, in the fight scenes here and there, to emphasize how Quinn is skillful rather than how Quinn is strong. When captured by two police officers, he slips out of his handcuffs, handcuffs one to a bikerack and knocks the other one unconscious and proceeds to steal their car -- but it's the police radio that's really useful because it helps him dodge the manhunt. That's how I see it -- the physicality is a component, but it's not the defining trait.

Note: Please don't feel obligated to consider REBORN as supporting evidence in our discussions.

I agree with what you are saying is the essence of the character - and how is something special that can really bring in fans.

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How would Quinn have time to develop and nurture sliding technology when they were constantly on the run? With the exception of The Weaker Sex, the timer gave them at most a week before moving on to the next port of call.

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Transmodiar wrote:

How would Quinn have time to develop and nurture sliding technology when they were constantly on the run? With the exception of The Weaker Sex, the timer gave them at most a week before moving on to the next port of call.

In my mind -- I think Season 3 should have started with "Double Cross" -- and with a different ending. An ending where the Professor assumes his dead double's identity and the sliders take over Prototronics and start using it as a home base.

They'd still be doing random sliding every week, but with the knowledge that the exit slide would take them back to Prototronics.

I feel like this would have been a nice way to keep the premise of the show -- but add a little incremental progress in the sliding technology so that it doesn't feel like Quinn, the 'genius,' accomplished nothing in two years.

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I was just thinking of “Seasons Greedings” and “the Last of Eden” and it struck me: Where are the fathers?  We can logically assume the “The Last of Eden” guy fell during an earthquake some months ago (we’ve seen how these people just shrug their shoulders and walk away), but where is the other guy? I mean this woman was putting her baby in the hands of strangers (in a scene reminiscent of Three Men and A Baby).  There’s no deadly situation for viewers to assume the husband/boyfriend fell prey to and the world itself is not dangerous.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/

New episode! "World Killer" and "O Brother Where Art Thou"!

Re: Rewatch Podcast

To be fair NDJ agreed Rickman needed to be stopped.
The thing is though.... Violence is not Quinn's go to option unless pushed into it.
You point this out yourself in your newer posts quite succinctly when discussing his Mind and Problem solving being a core quality and more impressive asset than brawling alone.
I believe Quinn would aim to immobilise and capture Rickman if given a choice.
Rickmans medical condition is likely to kill him without additional victims anyway so Death is likely, but an execution? No.

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hey guys, new episode up now. "Just Say Yes" and "The Alternateville Horror"

Re: Rewatch Podcast

omnimercurial wrote:

To be fair NDJ agreed Rickman needed to be stopped. The thing is though.... Violence is not Quinn's go to option unless pushed into it. You point this out yourself in your newer posts quite succinctly when discussing his Mind and Problem solving being a core quality and more impressive asset than brawling alone. I believe Quinn would aim to immobilise and capture Rickman if given a choice. Rickmans medical condition is likely to kill him without additional victims anyway so Death is likely, but an execution? No.

I do not believe Quinn would have ever stopped pursuing Rickman. But I also don't believe Quinn would have killed Rickman, at least not if he were written correctly.

I think Quinn would have found some way to strand Rickman in a state of quantum suspension, imprisoned and 'frozen' inside the interdimensional tunnel -- with the intention to one day find a cure for Rickman's condition, release him from limbo and repair his damaged body and mind.

Anyway. I thought NDJ raised an interesting approach to Season 4. "Mother and Child" has a plothole: why don't Quinn and Rembrandt try to use the anti-Kromagg virus on their home Earth? NDJ suggested a missing scene / plot where their memories were erased.

NDJ wrote:

Since the commander used his mind tricks on everybody at the facility, it’s not that big a stretch to think he used it on the sliders to make them forget about getting it for themselves (especially since he used mind control to hide a weapon during Quinn’s pat down).

It makes me think: Season 4 is filled with awkward beats and characterization that were could have been made reasonable with some added scenes.

What if "Mother and Child" in addition to the Kromagg mindwipe, there was also another scene? A scene where Quinn abruptly separates himself from Colin, Maggie and Rembrandt -- making some flimsy excuse that doesn't fool Rembrandt. Rembrandt finds Quinn  Quinn is crying. The failure to find Wade again has hit him hard, and Quinn rages over how they've broken into 15 Kromagg bases trying to find Wade and "we never have time." He wonders if this is pointless, if they should give up. Maggie calls for Quinn and Quinn suddenly pulls himself together, his face resuming the cold stoicism he had before.

And maybe the final scene is Quinn staring blankly at wall in the Chandler and then Rembrandt drags him outside and down the street. Rembrandt points across the street. We see, at a distance, a slender redhead with an apron waiting on a table at an outdoor restaurant. Rembrandt says that on a lot of worlds, Kelly Welles and Wade opened a chain of Internet cafes; any time Rembrandt sees a Turing Treats in the phone book, he knows Wade's around.

Rembrandt tells Quinn: watch her. Go up to her and talk to her and take her to the movies, or walk by once and then walk away. He tells Quinn to do whatever he has to do, but he can't give up. They have to keep searching for the superweapon. They can't give up. And we'd end on Quinn alone, looking at the Wade-double. Does he approach? Does he leave? Fade out.

Another major sticking point is "Revelations" where Quinn is apparently not going to accompany Rembrandt back to Earth Prime to liberate it from the Kromaggs. I would probably imagine a missing scene where Colin confronts Quinn about this: and Quinn reveals that now that they have the weapon, they can free their home Earth, but Wade and Amanda Mallory are still out there. Rembrandt and Quinn had an agreement: Rembrandt would take the weapon home. Quinn would go search for Wade and his mom.

It would add weight to Jerry's half-hearted performance in the final scene when Maggie tells Quinn she hopes he gets home someday and Quinn says he does too -- but what he's really thinking about is how his search for Wade is once again on hold.

That said, I think the whole Kromagg Prime arc of Season 4 was awful awful awful no matter how many tweaks might have been made. But "Commander Wade Welles" and Quinn putting on a brave face for the others while crying over Wade when nobody's looking would have helped a little. (A little.)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hngh. ireactions hitting it out of the park again with some stellar ideas.

Little things like this would have been the difference between a show that so obviously Just Didn't Care and a show that rallied in the wake of production horrors and the loss of two of its stars. Fox be damned, continuity matters. It's what keeps people invested in the story, what makes it more than just "some people went places and things exploded". Even a viewer dipping into an episode in the middle of the series and seeing these characters cut up about someone they've never met... they're not going to recoil and change the channel. They're going to think, "oh, huh. Maybe I should go back and see the earlier episodes so I know why they care." A little harder in the days before DVDs, but yeah.

But that was all we needed. An emotional connection. To know that Quinn cared. So simple yet so powerful. I'm going to be headcanoning those scenes into my ideas of the episodes now.

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The Rickman Situation
I see Quinn as a man (a boy still in many ways) who is being crushed under the weight of responsibility, guilt, and grief. My interpretation of the Rickman scenario does not include him ever giving up- remember I don’t think that Quinn is in any rush to give up sliding. I think Quinn both understands and accepts his responsibility to stop Rickman (killing him if necessary but not wanting to)- but it is this same realization that is weighing him down. Add to that the immediate situation with Kyra (since when hasn’t a beautiful woman been Quinn’s weakness?) and Rembrandt, and the fact that Wade and Maggie aren’t there and you get a “f*** this- I quit” outburst. Do I think that if the timer ran down and Maggie and Wade were there, Quinn would have stayed with Kyra? No, not even you remove the whole Carlos situation.   

This is how I see “Mother and Child”
You are about to leave your house for work and your plan is to stop by the store to buy some bread. Your manipulative, horrible, dangerous neighbor, who you HATE, is also going to the store to get medicine for his kid. This is the type of guy that will rob the store but you know that his kid really is sick so you go to the store with him. He talks to you, none of which you want to hear (you just want to make sure he doesn’t do anything illegal), talks up the store clerk, and even talks the pharmacists into giving him the medicine for less than he should have paid. You get back to the house without incident and DAMN IT- you forgot the bread and now you have to go to work!

Did the neighbor wipe your memory or did he manipulate you into momentarily forgetting your own goals? I have nothing to base memory wipe on, but messing with your mind, making you focus on ‘A’ so that you forget you were after ‘B’- that is what Kromaggs do. Overly simplistic but I wanted to demonstrate that for me, “memory wipe” and “messing with your mind” are two different things.

Also, we all assume that the Kromagg virus is at the same facility as the human cure. It makes sense but we don’t know it for sure- The only information we ever get is that the anti-virus is at the military facility and that comes from the Kromagg who got that my reading Christina’s father’s mind. If the virus was there, he wasn’t telling!

I think this a middling episode for the season. I think they did miss an opportunity to really talk about Wade instead of just using her as a plot device. Either Rembrandt or Quinn could have talked about Wade to Colin and it would not have felt contrived. They could have even talked to each other about what Christina’s situation meant for Wade (if Christina could get away with a baby why didn’t Wade try to escape? Is she pregnant? Does she have a baby?) and larger issues in general (what would happen if they did get the Kromagg killing virus and women with Humagg children wanted to bring their babies home?). Of course this is a can of worms nobody really wanted to open.

I agree that the Kromagg arc was awful. I see where they were going and it did make sense that a few of the worlds would have differently evolved humans. After all, there was actually another humanoid species on this Earth that homo sapiens beat out for dominance. This means their existence is still in keeping with the spirit of the show, but I watch Star Trek for constant alien human/ interaction- Sliders was suppose to be something different.

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Tom and Cory applauded me for noting that Penny is meant to represent Wade in "Common Ground." That wasn't me, that was Ian McDuffie. I even linked to his review.

-- ?!?!

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Tom apparently has the NARCOTICA comic on which "Just Say Yes" was based. He dislikes Dennis Calero's art. I'll have to respectfully disagree; I thought Calero did a great job of using a more impressionistic approach to SLIDERS, focusing on mood and atmosphere as opposed to detail and photorealism. His approach to the characters allows the likenesses to be off because they're illustrative representations of the sliders rather than attempts to copy photos. I also thought NARCOTICA was well written because Jerry O'Connell's script isn't about how DRUGS ARE EVIL. Jerry's script is about how drugs are being used as a means of societal control on this alternate world, which shifts the situation into a more nuanced state of moral ambiguity.

I dunno how the Jerry who wrote this comic constantly comes off as a sub-literate moron when talking SLIDERS in interviews.

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"Just Say Yes" is an inept effort to demonize drugs and dramatize addiction -- very odd, given that David Peckinpah and Bill Dial saw their TV producer jobs as ways to enable their addictions. Strange how "Just Say Yes" is the one story these people are qualified to tell and they couldn't do it.

**

Tom really highlighted my distaste for the Season 4 arc. Cory and Tom enjoy "Alternateville" as a fun, light episode. But, as Tom says, it feels totally out of place when Season 4 started with the invasion of Earth Prime and the enslavement of Wade and Amanda Mallory and the deaths of all the Pilot characters. Against this backdrop, it's just awkward to see stories like "Alternateville." They don't fit the dark situation the show has created.

Which is precisely my argument against the Kromagg Prime arc; it doesn't widen the stories SLIDERS can do; it narrows them until stories that aren't connected to the Kromaggs no longer suit the characters. Season 4 is actively trying to take away the stories SLIDERS can tell until using the full breadth of SLIDERS stories now feels wrong. And it seems to have left the fanbase permanently damaged.

There's over fifty Season 6 fanfics and the majority of them are Kromagg war epics. There's at least fifteen pitches for alternate visions of Season 4 that start with the Kromagg invasion of Earth. Towards the end, most of the fanfics were about the Kromagg myth-arc.

A fanfic writer from that era recently told me that he couldn't stand Season 4 and it made him stop writing SLIDERS fanfics. He didn't want to write for Quinn, Rembrandt, Colin and Maggie searching for a superweapon; he didn't relate to that team. He wanted to write Quinn, Wade, Rembrandt and Arturo, but writing stories with the original quartet in a post-"Genesis" era made him feel like he was stuck in the past and out of date, that the only stories that belonged in SLIDERS were focused on fighting Kromaggs rather than exploring parallel worlds.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

Tom and Cory applauded me for noting that Penny is meant to represent Wade in "Common Ground." That wasn't me, that was Ian McDuffie. I even linked to his review.

Yep we made a gaffe! We actually noticed it before this episode even went up and made the correction in the By The Way section which you'll hear in Monday's episode. Blame it on skimming and not reading fully!

Re: Rewatch Podcast

On a side note, how do you like our "Quick Impressions?" Just a bit of goofy fun!

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Tom and Cory, in the recent podcast, said that the SLIDERS comics aren't canon. The canonicity of the SLIDERS comics was an amusing debate in a Sliderscast:

Mr. Stargate: "The comics are not canon!"
The Savior: "They are canon."
Mr. Stargate: "How the fuck can they be canon?"
The Savior: "Tracy Torme said they're canon."
Mr. Stargate: "God damn it! Fuck! Fine! Whatever!"

That said, the comics became irreconcilable with the TV show; "Darkest Hour" has the sliders make it home and leave again and "Deadly Secrets" offers an account of Wade's parents contrary to "Season's Greedings" -- so I think the comics have to feature doubles of the sliders -- which means they are technically canon within the SLIDERS multiverse if not canon for the specific versions of the sliders we saw on television.

"But ireactions! If that's your opinion, why does one of your SLIDERS REBORN scripts have Rembrandt talking about how he once had to fight two-dimensional beings in ARMADA?!!"

..........

Whoops.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hee Hee smile

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

New Rewatch Podcast ep is up. This week we discuss "Slidecage" and "Asylum" http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 2_12-08_00

Re: Rewatch Podcast

RewatchPodcast wrote:

New Rewatch Podcast ep is up. This week we discuss "Slidecage" and "Asylum" http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 2_12-08_00


cool, thanks!

Re: Rewatch Podcast

tom2point0 wrote:

On a side note, how do you like our "Quick Impressions?" Just a bit of goofy fun!

The impressions are indeed hilarious -- they're so random and bizarre -- taking the scripts and reading them in the voices of Sean Connery and Christopher Walken. I don't understand why you would do this -- I just know that it's absurd and memorable.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Holy S-Word -- as someone currently attempting to aid Sliders Rewatch with gathering behind the scenes information on Season 4 episodes, I sent the boys THREE long E-mails today dissecting "Mother and Child" from the behind the scenes perspective to the commissioning of the script to the script itself and the filming. These are REALLY long E-mails. Those poor, poor people. I even called in Temporal Flux for extra help on this one instead of taking my usual approach of depending on memories of conversations we'd had years ago.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Oh wow. ireactions, care to share that dissection with the rest of us at some point? I'd love to read it.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Originally, I was just going to send the boys this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/64bv60t89p1ld … d.mp3?dl=0

It's a voicemail, less than three minutes long, where I react to The Scene. But then, upon rewatching the episode for deleted scenes, I began to notice certain things and decided, instead, to send them something more analytical.

I'll see what Tom and Cory do with it -- for now, I'm leaving it for them as their exclusive. "Mother and Child" is one of the most despised episodes of SLIDERS ever made, but no one has ever looked at it with any degree of accuracy or clarity. The Scene -- the loathed, despised Scene -- no fan ever seems to be able to quote it correctly. It's as though their rage, while correct and appropriate, has warped their memory of it -- and I rewatched The Scene today repeatedly while reviewing the script, examining it frame by frame as though I were reviewing the Zapruder footage of John F. Kennedy getting shot. I think I know what happened. If there's stuff Tom and Cory decline to use, I'll share it here.

I laughed out loud when Tom and Cory remarked in their podcast that they had no messages from Earth Prime. I probably won't be writing them too many post-podcast messages as I'm now sending them my retrospectives in advance of their recording.

169 (edited by intangirble 2015-11-25 03:29:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

...*actually laughed out loud*

I loved that voicemail. Nice little ending there.

Looking forward to what the three of you have/will come up with, in that case.

I'm glad I was prepared for The Scene when I saw it... very recently, in fact. By this time I've come to accept that anything past season 3, and large parts of season 3 itself, just isn't my show any more. It's a lot easier to look at it from that detached perspective than to actually try to reconcile a Quinn who would say that about one of his best friends.

I'm noticing a running theme with the female Kromagg Victims of the Week in these episodes. Namely: it's actually pretty rare to see a character on TV with a haircut like Wade's. Between "Mother and Child" and "Common Ground", we've had two plucky, tiny girls with pixie cuts in quick succession, like they're not even trying to be subtle. It's like they've realized what they've lost and are trying desperately to replace her. (And it's got to be killing Rembrandt.)

I notice this more generally throughout the rest of the series. As Tom and Cory mentioned, it's like the show is constantly trying to recreate the dynamic it previously had with the foursome. I've only seen one episode of season 5, but by the time we get to Requiem, we've got Diana as the Professor skeptic figure, Maggie as... Wade(!) with some of the leadership aspects of Quinn, Rembrandt as Rembrandt (thank God), and Mallory as, well, honestly I don't know what he's supposed to be, but I spent the entire episode hating him. Never have I seen anyone so completely constructed of cardboard and smarm.

But they were trying. And the fact that Maggie ends up in the nurturing Wade role of all places is some kind of mix of hilarious and sad... that they had to stretch her character this far to make her feasible, and to keep the show going.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Mallory's a very interesting character played by a brilliant actor written by some awful writers. If you've never seen Seasons 4 - 5 in their entirety, I would watch them once but have one or both of my fanfics waiting nearby.

It's true about Maggie -- one Quinn/Wade shipper with the handle Slida was grousing throughout Season 4 that SLIDERS had gotten rid of Wade in favour of Maggie only for Maggie to essentially be Wade but played by a far less compelling actress.

I just sent my FOURTH E-mail to Tom and Cory about "Mother and Child" -- about the ending of the episode. Those poor men.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I have sent Tom and Cory my fifth and final E-mail on "Mother and Child." I think I may have hit some record; surely nobody on the old Sci-Fi Bboard or the newsgroup ever wrote as much as this regarding the episode.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I can't wait for the "Mother and Child" episode of the podcast... it's going to be something special.

And possibly hilarious.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

They really should break it down into a two-parter: one discussing the episode and one discussing Ib's descent into MADNESS over its execution. wink

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast

"Mother and Child" should have been *Quinn's* descent into madness; it wasn't and now I'm experiencing what he didn't.

After sending the boys a sixth E-mail about "Mother and Child," I did a look ahead to see which episodes will likely have extensive, multi-part E-mails from me with Temporal Flux's behind the scenes info.

Those would be "Revelations," "The Unstuck Man," "The Great Work," "New Gods for Old," "Requiem," "Eye of the Storm" and "The Seer."

Re: Rewatch Podcast

...you're going to absolutely destroy "Requiem," aren't you.

Please say you're going to.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

The length doesn't necessarily have anything to do with quality or even my opinion.

It's more about extremely tangled and confusing behind the scenes situations. "Mother and Child" has one of the most convoluted behind the scenes situations in the history of the series and the onscreen result is at times in stark and glaring contrast to the actual screenplay as well as the Season 4 arc -- and it's due to the season-wide circumstances as well as the situation for this one episode.

The situation is the same for "Revelations," "The Unstuck Man," "Applied Physics," "Strangers and Comrades," "The Great Work," "New Gods for Old," "Requiem," "Eye of the Storm" and "The Seer" -- the original Season 4 finale, the intention to use that finale story for the Season 5 premiere, the original plan with Jerry O'Connell before he refused to return, the initial plans for Diana Davis, the original plan for the third episode of Season 5, the removal of the Kromaggs and the interdimensional library from "The Great Work," the original story pitch for "Requiem" (which had nothing to do with Wade) and the screenplay that followed (which was hacked up for the screen), the original Season 5 finale, the plans for Season 6, the plans for the SLIDERS feature film, the series finale that Tracy Torme intended to produce that would taken place after "The Guardian" and declared everything afterwards to be apocryphal -- there's a lot to unpack. I would say that the Season 4 finale, the Season 5 premiere, the delayed Season 4 'resolution' in Season 5, the Wade-episode of Season 5 and the Season 5 finale (as planned versus as filmed) will be the long E-mails filled with analysis, information and, well -- theory.

There's a lot of bits and pieces here that I've stitched into something resembling a coherent narrative while being careful to indicate where conjecture fills in some gaps, so it's also important to distinguish between known fact and supposition.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hey Rewatchers!

New episode is up now! "California Reich" and "The Dying Fields.' http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_13-08_00

Re: Rewatch Podcast

RewatchPodcast wrote:

Hey Rewatchers!

New episode is up now! "California Reich" and "The Dying Fields.' http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/ent … 6_13-08_00


Great, thanks! Can't wait to listen!

179 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2015-12-02 19:23:27)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Loved the Sean Connery / Christopher Walken "Instant Impressions" segment in a recent podcast. Very funny stuff!


The podcast is on fire.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Hmm. So I actually have some things to say about the Sliders Rewatch as opposed to say to Sliders Rewatch. I really enjoyed their take on "California Reich." I thought it was neat how they rated it really highly until the ending whereas I rate "Reich" extremely low because of the ending. The episode is handled well up to a point. The intensity and cruelty of the Stompers is riveting; the episode really evokes the viewer's fury and outrage at racism and bigotry. There is a twisted and grim satisfaction to seeing Kirk discover he's a member of the people he persecutes and assaults on a daily basis.

There's something a bit disappointing about Jerry's performance, however, in the scene where he confronts Kirk with the horror of his deeds.

KIRK: "I'm not afraid of them! I know who I am -- I don't care what their tests say!!"
QUINN: "How many people have you rounded up who said the same thing? 'It's a lie, I'm not a mongrel' -- did you listen to them then?! Will they listen to you now?"

Jerry's delivery is fine. He plays Quinn with frank practicality and morality. But that's all it is. It's fine. There just aren't enough layers there; had John Rhys Davies been on set to serve as Jerry's acting coach, I could see Jerry doing a lot more with that scene. Contempt, loathing and disgust for Kirk would be his main emotions -- but there would be a small measure of pity and it would be this pity Quinn would try to show now, because he *needs* Kirk, Kirk can get him to Rembrandt.

The ending is also a massive letdown and a total disappointment; the 'migrants' of this world are so dehumanized and the general population so racist that it's unlikely the Schick-supporters would be in any way concerned. The script seriously needed to be reworked in this area; a better route would have been to better emphasize how Schick's economic recovery plan wouldn't actually help any of his supporters; their jobs would be taken by the Eddys, and he knows that full well.

It might have been even more effective to reveal that Schick isn't actually a racist, he doesn't hate the migrants at all -- but he finds it effective to manipulate and employ hatred and ignorance in getting his constituents to overlook his failings. Ultimately, Miller's script operates on the belief that Rembrandt talking about how everyone's human matched with some body horror will shock people out of their bigotry and that's nonsense.

A more nuanced, grounded approach might have been to reveal how bigotry ultimately leaves people incapable of solving problems with ideas, facts, knowledge and information because they're instead driven by groundless, irrational, unthinking hatred of the different.

But "Reich" takes the easy way out and declares all is made well with a speech, and Kirk never has to suffer any real consequences, as Cory points out. He gets a happy ending he didn't earn.

"California Reich" is a good first draft, desperately in need of refinement and care to shape it from a clumsy but powerful episode into something more meaningful.

**

"The Dying Fields" is a disaster, one of the worst episodes of television ever made -- the only reason that it isn't is because "This Slide of Paradise" got set too low a standard and nothing's ever sunk lower. I actually felt shocked when David Peckinpah's direction was mentioned in the podcast -- for all Peckinpah's faults, the episodes he works on personally tend to be good, but "The Dying Fields" is a disaster on every level. The guest stars are awful; all these helpless humans and William Bigelow's script can't create any empathy for them. They're simply action characters killed off without emotion.

Kyra and Kryoptus are awful characters. Bigelow's script gives them stilted, awkward dialogue that no actor could possibly deliver properly, from Kyra's inability to use contractions and the Humaggs using "human" as an insult. There is absolutely no reason given in the script or onscreen for why Kyra is won over by the sliders and no sense of why Kyra thought she could survive on this world even if she convinced Kryoptus to mend his ways.

Bigelow's Kromagg dialogue feels like an awkward photocopy of other Kromaggs' this season, but there's no characterization, just surface level formality and one-note anger. And then there's the silliness of every single Kromagg character's name beginning with a K -- why? It makes it so that the Kromaggs no longer seem like a race as much as one character played by multiple actors and the only actor in Season 4 who could play a Kromagg well was Reiner Schone in "Slidecage" because he played the Kromagg-style dialogue as a man speaking English as a second language. With Bigelow's approach, the Kromaggs, more than ever, come off as actors struggling to deliver lines they don't believe in. They're not scary at all.

And "The Dying Fields" is completely pointless. The sliders blunder into this horrific situation of humans being kidnapped by Kromaggs and made to fight. The sliders fail to save anyone. All the humans die. The sliders accomplished nothing. They might as well have never come into the episode. We gained no insights into the Kromaggs other than Bigelow not understanding how to write them even in terms of their Season 4 incarnation. Pointless, ugly and dull.

Cory and Tom highlighted a shocking moment of incompetence on David Peckinpah's part: at one point, Colin is held at gunpoint by Kyra. Quinn is in the shot, behind Kyra, unseen by Kyra -- and then he promptly flees and abandons his brother.

In the script, Colin was alone when Kyra captures him and Quinn, in hiding, only spots that Colin's been taken when Colin is hauled past him. For whatever reason, Colin's capture and Quinn in hiding were put in the same space, in the same shot -- and the result is that Quinn looks like a coward for not attacking Kyra from behind. It's impossible to take Quinn seriously as a hero after this.

It's funny how Cory and Tom say that they didn't believe Rembrandt would die, that SLIDERS wouldn't ever write a character exit without building up to it properly and making sure it had weight and impact.

...........

"The Dying Fields" has an awful script with direction that actively undermines what little integrity this script had in the first place -- it's really sad. It shows you how little the Season 4 production cared about a quality product and what's worse is that this was meant to be a hugely critical and important episode. Tom and Cory have, I believe, an exclusive on this information for "Mother and Child," courtesy of Temporal Flux. I'll leave it to them to tell you all about it soon, if they can. As I said, I sent them SIX E-MAILS about "Mother and Child," so we can hardly fault them if they feel it's too much to get into.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Rewatch and Sliderscast are both great in their own ways. I don't know exactly when I started watching Sliders, but must have been back in 96 or 97, just before it left FOX.  I watched it first run until it ended.  Then I sort of forgot about it until a few years back HUB ran reruns. I watched all them and eventually bought the DVDs.  I was hooked again.  And now these podcasts!

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I'm rewatching "Net Worth" for Sliders Rewatch to help them do some research. I don't want to say too much and I want to leave this to Sliders Rewatch to discuss -- but this episode made me so very, very sad. It doesn't work on so many levels -- and the main flaw is that there is a giant Sabrina Lloyd shaped hole in this story.

Think about it. (Not that I recommend thinking too much about "Net Worth," it's terrible.)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I'm watching it too now to see what you mean. Don't have much to say yet, but I was amused by this:

http://i.imgur.com/nwgkXE5.png

Colin tips over a box from InGen. Now we know which Earth all those dinos came from...

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Wow! That's priceless! big_smile

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Recent discussions, which I will not share for now, have indicated that I could be very, very, very, very, very wrong when it comes to "Net Worth." I'll explain after Tom and Cory's podcast. Nevertheless, I maintain that "Net Worth" has a giant hole in the story, a giant Sabrina Lloyd shaped hole, a massively gaping void at its epicenter. Whether this hole is specific to "Net Worth" or the general situation of Season 4 is in dispute and unlikely to ever be definitively resolved, although there's more evidence for the latter than the former.

As with "Mother and Child," I'll share everything after Tom and Cory have their say.

186 (edited by intangirble 2015-12-06 18:47:52)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

ireactions wrote:

Whether this hole is specific to "Net Worth" or the general situation of Season 4 is in dispute and unlikely to ever be definitively resolved, although there's more evidence for the latter than the former.

Yeah, I think the massive gaping hole in that episode might have been overshadowed for me by the massive gaping hole in season 4 period. It seriously feels like half of those episodes were written with Wade/Sabrina in mind and they just sort of pasted Maggie in there. (Although I can see where you're coming from with "Net Worth", given it's such a hacker-focused story.)

I will admit that I feel a cringing sense of betrayal every time Quinn acts romantic towards Maggie. Not even just as a Quinn/Wade supporter, though there's that too of course - but it feels like a betrayal of Quinn's character. Sure, he's had flirtations on multiple worlds, but I can't believe that the ease and familiarity that he shows with Maggie could really exist. It's like he's forgotten all about Wade.

I mean, season 4 is like that on many levels. But I would have liked to see some grieving, some hesitation before starting a relationship because, wow, the last woman I was this close to just got abducted by the Kromaggs, I don't think I'm ready to be over that yet.

I can believe in his falling for Maggie, even if Jerry doesn't make it believable. I can't believe in him accepting her so seamlessly as a replacement for Wade.

And yeah, I know Quinn and Wade aren't a canonical "couple". It's not just that. It's the way he behaves towards her almost as if she were Wade specifically, and the way they changed her character so radically that it's practically like she is.

Anyway, looking forward to the discussions, in whatever format.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I think the reason Jerry O'Connell couldn't play a romance with Kari: she just wasn't his type. Jerry was in his early twenties, Kari was in her thirties. Jerry wasn't interested in women; he was interested in girls. If John Rhys-Davies had been around to coach him -- the only way I see it working is if Quinn lusts for Maggie, and even that wouldn't last long.

What do Quinn and Maggie really have in common? What is unique to their pairing and partnership? What would they do together when hanging out? What would they talk about over dinner? What would Quinn do to make Maggie feel special; what would Maggie do to make Quinn feel important to her? SLIDERS doesn't know. Jerry doesn't know. Kari doesn't know.

Tom tells me they did something really, really neat and super-flattering to me for the "Mother and Child" podcast, so I'm really looking forward to it. I keep meaning to put the podcasts on my phone to listen during my morning and evening commutes. Instead, the second Cory sends it to me for Earth Prime to link to their web page and promote it, I end up putting up the post and listening in the bath.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

New podcast!

http://rewatchpodcast.podomatic.com/

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Lester Barrie, who played Elston Diggs, is out of the acting business.  He's a minister in Southern California.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Cool to hear that Lester Barrie is doing well! I made sure to give him a big scene in SLIDERS REBORN showcasing all of Diggs' peculiarities -- not because I was enamoured with the character, but because Tom and Cory kept talking about him.

So, regarding "Lipschitz Live" and MacArthur Mallory, a character who is inexplicably Colin's stepfather with the same last name: I have no data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if MacArthur Mallory were originally Michael Mallory to be played by John Walcutt, only for an unexpected unavailability to see the script awkwardly patched. I now await Matt Hutaff to blow this theory out of the water with his Bazooka of Truth. :-)

(You'll find this hilarious next week.)

I loved Tom and Cory theorizing how Will Sasso would have played Gomez Calhoun in "Lipschitz." I imagine he would have been less hostile, more distracted.

QUINN
Excuse me --

GOMEZ
(excited)
Shh!
(gesturing at the TV with delight)
Can't you see this is important! Guy's
got a psychic dog!

He laughs incredulously.

QUINN
I'd like a room --

GOMEZ
(not turning from the TV,
lightly indifferent)
We're booked up.

QUINN
Booked up!? This place is never booked
up!

GOMEZ
(cheerfully)
Big corporate wedding!

Gomez casually jabs a finger towards a sign on the desk, indicating that there's a TV corporate summit here.

QUINN
Then I'd like to leave a message for
my friends.

Gomez remains utterly fixed on the television.

GOMEZ
(dreamily)
D'you have a room?

QUINN
Not according to you!

GOMEZ
(distant)
Then you can't leave a message.

QUINN
Why not?!

GOMEZ
(lazily)
We're a full service hotel, but only for
guests -- no guests, no service.

He continues to watch the TV.

Later, when Colin approaches Calhoun --

COLIN
I'd like a --

Gomez holds up a finger, as though asking for a minute. Without turning around, he picks up a piece of paper and hurriedly reads off the sheet.

GOMEZ
(reading this prepared statement)
We've got no rooms, no suites, you can't leave
a message and I haven't seen any of your friends.

And then he returns his full attention to the TV. The boredom instantly disappears from his face, replaced with gleeful enthusiasm.

COLIN
(appreciative)
Thank you!

He walks off.

I thought Tom and Cory did a nice job this week. I sent them a bunch of script pages (that I wrote myself) so they'd have a lot of options for doing some Quinn and Rembrandt impressions if they were inclined to do them. They picked a really nice page to perform -- so below are the other ones.

But first -- Tom and Cory wondered why, in "The Dying Fields," the Kromaggs try to kill the sliders when they're counting on the sliders to help reclaim their homeworld. Tom theorizes that after Quinn got to the Slidecage and came back out, the Kromaggs felt that their plan had failed.

I don't think this makes much sense; the Kromaggs already knew about the Slidecage (indicated by Rembrandt's dialogue when under hypnosis in "Slidecage"), meaning someone who worked on the cage must have failed to get back to the homeworld before the doors closed and was captured and interrogated. As for why the Slidecage was set to contain rather than repel -- it was likely made so because the Kromagg Prime Michael Mallory was trying to imprison any soldiers who might otherwise wreak havoc on the multiverse from which he was isolating Kromagg Prime.

My theory would involve putting an additional scene at the end of "The Dying Fields":

EXT. HUMAGG HUNTING GROUNDS - DAY

Quinn nods to Colin -- and Colin raises the timer and triggers the vortex. It splits open the air with its blue and green energy, beckoning to the sliders. But Kryoptus brandishes his rifle --

KRYOPTUS
Nobody move! I'll kill you all --

And Kyra steps forward. She shields the sliders with her body --

KYRA
You won't!

She moves towards Kryoptus.

KYRA
You won't shoot me -- you have
feelings for me -- I can feel them!

And when Kryoptus hesitates, Kyra turns to the sliders.

KYRA
Go!

Maggie doesn't need telling twice. She sprints towards the gateway and leaps. Rembrandt follows --

REMBRANDT
Quinn, let's go!

With a flash, he's gone too. Colin dives in next and Kryoptus watches. Letting them leave. Kyra smiles with relief, and Quinn watches Kryoptus turn his gaze onto Kyra and only Kyra --

KRYOPTUS
You're right, Kyra -- I can't deny
who I am --

His hand traces her temple. He leans forward, kissing her. And as Kyra kisses him back, Kryoptus unsheathes his knife and STABS Kyra through the heart. She chokes. Her body stiffens with shock. Her eyes focus on nothing --

Kryoptus locks eyes with Kyra, brutally cold as Kyra slumps forward, betrayal in her face --

And Quinn casts a stunned look at Kryoptus  and Kyra's body on the ground. Disappointment flashes across Quinn's face -- disappointment and despair -- and then suddenly, there is nothing. Quinn watches Kryoptus yank his bloody knife from Kyra's corpse -- and we can see the blank finality on Quinn's face. The emptiness. Everything he tried to do for Kyra is lost. Change is worthless. It doesn’t exist. Life is cruel and bloody -- there is nothing worth feeling --

Kryoptus raises his rifle to bear on Quinn and Quinn dives out of the line of fire. Leaping into the vortex. Kryoptus fires just in time to miss the gateway as it closes. The burst of energy strikes a nearby structure and Kryoptus stands alone with Kyra's body at his feet.

Silence. For a moment.

Then a humvee rolls up. General Kronos climbs out with a small squad of Kromagg soldiers. General Kronos walks up to Kryoptus.

GENERAL KRONOS
The humans killed her?

KRYOPTUS
(numbly)
No. I did.

The General arches an eyebrow.

KRYOPTUS
(indicates Kyra)
The humans had turned her.
She was helping them escape.
I had no choice.

GENERAL KRONOS
And the humans?

KRYOPTUS
Three dead inside. Six more
escaped.

GENERAL KRONOS
Three kills. Well done. You surprise
me. Welcome to the Elites.

KRYOPTUS
(flat; stares at Kyra)
Thank you, sir.

General Kronos turns to the Kromagg soldiers. 

GENERAL KRONOS
Move out. We have humans in
the area.

Kronos turns back to Kryoptus, indicating Kyra's body.

GENERAL KRONOS
Dispose of that.

KRYOPTUS
Yes, sir.

Kronos walks off.

Kryoptus stares at Kyra's face, confusion expanding across his face. He kneels next to her prone, lifeless shape. Kryoptus begins to experience SADNESS, his confused emotions turning to PAIN and ACHING GRIEF.

Kryoptus lifts Kyra's motionless body in his arms and gently carries her off as we --

CUT TO:

INT. HUMVEE - DAY

General Kronos sits in the passenger seat of the Humvee. As his driver handles the vehicle and speeds along the path, Kronos reaches for the viewscreen controls in the dashboard before him.

GENERAL KRONOS
(to the viewscreen)
One-one-three. Connect me to
the cage.

There's a burst of static from the viewscreen speakers and on the screen itself -- and then on the screen, we can make out the vague figure of a person, cloaked in darkness and shadow.

GENERAL KRONOS
Your proposal was successful. The
humans have departed, never once
suspecting that they were permitted
to leave.

We see the figure on the screen shifting within the shadows -- as though bowing.

GENERAL KRONOS
Their easy escapes from Outposts 161
and 147 followed by the discovery of
their friend's sleeper programming
risked incurring their suspicions.

We can now make out the outline of the figure's garments -- a long, white gown.

GENERAL KRONOS
Your stratagem has re-established their
certainty that to contend with the Kromaggs
is to court their deaths. And soothed away any
skepticism towards their seeming
competence in defying the Dynasty.

We see the figure on screen raising a pair of hands -- clasping them together in a prayerful gesture of deference.

GENERAL KRONOS
Such calculated cruelty. Bringing one
of the humans to the brink of death
with a Nobelium weapon. Manuevering
our weakest link in the Humaggs towards
healing the human. And then letting them
leave thinking they'd scarcely survived --
your precision does your masters proud.

We see the figure on the screen parting hands in a serene movement.

GENERAL KRONOS
You are a rare credit to your kind. Tell
me, child -- how does a mere human
equal the crystalline clarity of the
Kromagg mind?

And then we see the figure learn forward, out of the shadows and into the light.

It's Mary.

MARY
I know their leader. I know his passions
and his fears.

Kronos nods, contemptuously impressed.

MARY
I know his bravado, his groundless
confidence, his arrogance and ego.
I know the strings within his heart,
how to pull and pluck as we see fit --

Kronos regards Mary on the screen as though she's an amusing pet.

MARY
Quinn Mallory is our soldier -- and he
shall be the Dynasty's greatest hero.

And Mary stares through the screen, at Kronos, at us --

BLACKOUT.

I feel like that's the only explanation that still upholds the original Season 4 arc. "The Dying Fields" was staged for the sliders' benefit. It wouldn't be the first time.

Tom and Cory did an great job of examining The Scene and noted that Jerry's acting throughout Season 4 is extremely poor. Here's the breakdown I sent Tom and Cory of all the problems with The Scene:

As filmed and aired:

REMBRANDT: (grabbing Quinn's arm) "If Wade is back there, we gotta do something! "
QUINN: (brushing off Remmy's arm and walking off-camera) "I don't know if we have enough time."

Points of concern:

  • Jerry O'Connell conveys no emotional reaction to learning that Christina knew Wade. Jerry performs a total lack of interest or attention towards Christina despite her knowledge of Wade.

  • The onscreen dialogue lacks any moment where Quinn questions Christina about Wade; he doesn't seem interested in learning more about Wade's whereabouts or well-being.

  • When Rembrandt grabs Quinn's arm, declaring they must find Wade, Jerry pulls his arm away and declares, "I don't know if we have enough time" and then walks off-camera -- giving the impression that Quinn feels no empathy or concern for Rembrandt's current state of agony and feels no need to console him.

  • As Quinn is walking away, Rembrandt shouts after him that he doesn't care if there's not enough time -- and Quinn does not respond and is off-camera, so we see no reaction.

  • Christina then establishes that Wade has already been moved off-world -- yet Jerry inexplicably had Quinn walk away from Rembrandt after "I don't know if we have enough time," indicating that if Quinn knew Wade wasn't on this world anymore, he had no intention of giving Rembrandt this information -- or that if Quinn didn't know this information, he wasn't interested in finding out anything more from Christina. The ambiguity here is clearly not intentional; something has been severely miscommunicated.

  • Cleavant Derricks plays Rembrandt in agony when hearing about Wade. Jerry O'Connell, in contrast, plays the same scene with nothing. It's impossible to discern Quinn's state of mind or motivations from Jerry's acting because Jerry is providing no information whatsoever. Jerry's same approach to acting is present in "Slidecage" when Quinn thinks Maggie is dead and Jerry takes a scene of Quinn breaking down and plays it with near-total neutrality.

  • In a later scene, Quinn threatens a Kromagg with death and demands the location of Wade Welles -- which is completely at odds with Jerry performing Quinn as indifferent about Wade in the earlier scene.

And let's look at the actual script:

REMBRANDT: "If Wade's in that camp, we've got to do something!"
QUINN: "We don't have much time -- "

So first, we have Jerry changing his line. It was scripted as a risk assessment; but Jerry changed it into a refusal. It's unlikely this was on purpose; SLIDERS hasn't worried about actors delivering lines as written since Season 3. Jerry delivered an approximation of what was on paper -- but to disastrous results, turning it from Quinn acknowledging danger to Quinn shrinking from danger.

Also: the way The Scene is blocked is bizarre: why does the director have the lead character of the show declare he's not going to try to save his friend from a rape camp? Why is Jerry made to practically dive off-camera after delivering his line? Why wouldn't the director make sure to keep Jerry and Cleavant in the same frame for this critical scene? The script does not contain any of this behaviour from Quinn. The script actually contains very little scene direction, leaving it completely open to the actors how they want to play the scene.

My theory is that Jerry was drunk on set the day they filmed this. The Scene goes out of its way to get Jerry out of shot as quick as it can -- suggesting to me that Jerry was not fit to be on camera that day. Because Jerry isn't on camera when Rembrandt protests leaving without Wade, it makes it feel like Quinn doesn't care about Wade.

So, here's the direction I would have given for The Scene.

EXT. WOODS - DAY

REMBRANDT
(desperate)
If Wade's in that camp,
we've got to do something!

Quinn nods in agreement. He starts towards the path to the camp. Rembrandt is right next to him. Ready for war.

QUINN
We don't have much time --

REMBRANDT
(determined)
I don't care. We're going down
there.

CHRISTINA
It's too late for that!

Quinn and Rembrandt freeze in place. Staring at Christina in dismay.

CHRISTINA
She's gone. The Maggs shipped
out all the other prisoners yesterday
to make way for new arrivals. Wade
was with them --

Quinn's face fills with agony. Something inside him breaks. Rembrandt is forlorn, lost, helpless...

And then with subsequent scenes -- I think this episode should have been played as Quinn Mallory's descent into madness after meeting Christina. Here's a re-directed version of the scene where Quinn questions the Kromagg soldier -- again, no changes to the script dialogue, only the direction.

EXT. ROAD - DAY
The Kromagg soldiers from the Humvee are unconscious, except one. A young soldier.

CHRISTINA
Could we go to my world?

QUINN
Only if I knew the coordinates --

CHRISTINA
They would be in the
Kromagg central data bank!

Everyone looks at the conscious Kromagg -- and Quinn storms over to him. Hauling him to his feet. Grabbing him by the collar -- and then slamming him into the side of the Humvee. The Kromagg's head bashes into the glass and Quinn's face suddenly shows a cruel satisfaction.

QUINN
(nearly spitting into
the Kromagg's face)
Okay -- ! Here's the deal!!

He leans in. The Kromagg shrinks, terrified by this furious human.

QUINN
(snarling)
You help us. Or you die!

And Quinn's voice lingers on the threat -- on some level, he's hoping the Kromagg will give him an excuse. Maggie watches this, troubled by Quinn's anger -- but she joins in, moving her Kromagg gun to the Kromagg's head.

MAGGIE
Category too difficult for you?

KROMAGG SOLDIER
I'll help --

Quinn shoves the Kromagg towards the Humvee computer, making sure that the Kromagg bangs into the door by the shoulder. His face is sadistically contemptuous.

QUINN
(cruel)
Right answer.

CUT TO:

THE KROMAGG SOLIDER at the computer keyboard. Quinn leans over to BARK IN THE KROMAGG'S ear --

QUINN
Bring up the prisoner files!

KROMAGG SOLDIER
What are we looking for?

QUINN
Pull up anything on Christina
Griffin and Wade Welles -- !

It's only with the mention of Wade's name that Quinn's angry tone softens.

KROMAGG SOLIDER
I'll need their ID numbers -- we don't
keep their human names on file --

CHRISTINA
I don't know Wade's -- but mine's Jay
Kay one one two five --

QUINN
(watching the Kromagg type)
Now cross reference! To her
homeworld!

SOLDIER ONE
(typing, suddenly astonished
by the report on Christina's
world)
File says the last of our battalions withdrew
six months ago -- !?

QUINN
Withdrew?

The sliders are amazed. Christina is hopeful.

CHRISTINA
My parents! They could be
alive.

QUINN
(to the Kromagg, dangerously)
Read off the slide coordinates!
(as the Kromagg points to the screen
and mutters digits, Quinn programs the timer)
Got it --

REMBRANDT
Now for Wade!

KROMAGG SOLDIER
But without her ID number --

Quinn throws his hand into the Kromagg's head and smashes the soldier's forehead into the doorframe of the Humvee.

QUINN
We'll do it the hard way!

The Kromagg soldier winces with pain -- and Quinn furiously pushes the Kromagg at the computer.

QUINN
Pull up records as fast as
you can!

Maggie is stunned at Quinn's behaviour. She looks to Rembrandt with concern, as does Colin, but Rembrandt has eyes only for the computer as the fearful Kromagg follows Quinn's orders --

QUINN
(to the Kromagg)
When we see her picture, we'll
stop you --

The Kromagg tenses at the threat in the words. But then, from the radio --

KORINDOS (RADIO)
Unit Four! This is Base. What are
you doing? Those are classified files!

And then on the computer, an error message shows. Quinn seizes the Kromagg by the back of his collar --

QUINN
What's the matter!?

KROMAGG SOLIDER
(reading off the screen)
Network error! 807! Please notify system
administrator --

Quinn pushes the Kromagg against the computer. Panicked. Desperate.

QUINN
Try it again!!

The Kromagg urgently types away. But the error message doesn't clear --

REMBRANDT
I don't like this -- they could be onto us,
sending other units --

Quinn nods grimly --

QUINN
Right.

Then Quinn suddenly yanks the Kromagg from the Humvee computer and throws him to the ground. He looms over the Kromagg solider -- and throws a kick into the soldier's face. The Kromagg's hands raise just in time to brunt the force of the kick -- but then Quinn kicks the Kromagg in the STOMACH -- in the HEAD --

And then Maggie grabs him by the shoulder. Quinn spins around. A moment of shock, but then his face becomes stoic and he steps away from the fallen Kromagg, moving back towards the Humvee --

QUINN
(calm)
Colin! Maggie! Everybody on board!
We're getting out of here.

And he moves towards the driver's seat, this loss of control abruptly buried.

Tom and Cory didn't understand: why does the Kromagg soldier follow Quinn's instructions to pull up prisoner files? The only way to make this scene work is for Quinn to be absolutely terrifying, so enraged, so out of control that no sane person would be able to refuse him anything.

Jerry failed to play this scene correctly or apply any additional characterization to the words, resulting in a massive plot hole. One might say that that's the writer's fault -- but it's an actor's job to make the material come alive.

A subsequent scene also has a strange moment where a Kromagg says of the sliders:

KREESHAX
We were ordered not to detain them, but
things have changed. They are now
considered to be extremely dangerous
and to be taken down by whatever means
necessary.

Why do the Kromaggs suddenly want the sliders dead? And if there's now a kill-order on the sliders, why doesn't Korindos shoot them all at the end?

The answer I suggest: in "Mother and Child," the sliders went to Outpost 71 -- Christina's world on which a deadly anti-Kromagg virus was released into the atmosphere. Travel to Outpost 71 is a Kromagg capital crime as the Kromaggs are trying to contain the virus. The sliders going to Outpost 71 overrode the protective order and called for their deaths.

As far as the Dynasty's concerned, the chance of reclaiming Kromagg Prime isn't worth the risk of the sliders getting the virus.

This is clearly not the writer's intention. If it were, the line would be adjusted to: "We were ordered not to detain them, but they have travelled to Outpost 71. The protective order is countermanded; they are now considered to be extremely dangerous and to be taken down by whatever means necessary."

It explains why Korindos doesn't shoot all the sliders the second he has the antidote and the baby. If the Dynasty has a cure for the anti-Kromagg virus, then Outpost 71 will no longer under Kromagg quarantine and the Kromagg Prime plot is back in play. Korindos is risking execution by travelling to Outpost 71; he can get away with it by producing the antidote, but the Dynasty won't excuse Korindos for torpedoing their intentions to use Quinn as their unwitting agent if the antidote eliminates the risk. Tom's explanation is fine for a scene here and there, but my explanation covers everything -- because I'm an obsessive lunatic and Tom is comparatively normal.

Anyway. With the above revisions, we now have an episode entering dangerous territory; the sliders have no protection from Kromaggs on Outpost 71, Quinn is emotionally self-destructing -- and I would end Quinn's character arc in "Mother and Child" with the following sequence -- again, this is taken from the script, no dialogue altered, just the direction for the actors:

EXT. BACKYWARD - DAY
Korindos, holding the baby and the laser gun, backs into the yard. The sliders, Jonathan and Christina follow, held at bay by the gun.

Korindos hits a switch on his belt. Activating a VORTEX that opens behinds him. He starts backing towards the open vortex --

We see Quinn's watching this with icy fury, his mouth tight, his fists clenched --

But it's JONATHAN who CHARGES at Korindos. Korindos FIRES the laser pistol -- Jonathan takes a hit in the chest and KEEPS GOING. Korindos tries to leap into the vortex, but Jonathan GRABS Korindos BY HIS BIOHAZARD SUIT and pulls him back. Korindos SHOOTS Jonathan again, but Jonathan grips the suit tight, his body shielding the sliders from Korindos' gun --

And the sliders RUSH forward. All of them tag-teaming Korindos. Quinn grabs Korindos by the shoulder. Rembrandt grabs Korindos' gun-arm. Colin wrests the gun from Korindos' hand. Maggie GRABS CHRISTINA'S BABY and pulls the child away --

And then Quinn pounces on Korindos. His face is crazed with rage -- he shoves a knee straight into Korindos' stomach. Korindos gags --

Quinn grabs Korindos by the suit, then forces him backwards, farther from the sliders. He KICKS Korindos' legs out from under him. The Kromagg falls. And a split-second after Korindos' back has hit the ground, Quinn drops right on top of him, pinning the Kromagg. The disarmed commander looks up at Quinn from within his helmet. Smug even in defeat.

KORINDOS
You can't win.

Even lying flat on his back, Korindos expresses dismissive contempt.

KORINDOS
You must know that --

And then Quinn's face shows DEMENTED HATRED --

QUINN
(spitting out the words)
No! I don't know that! You see --

Quinn raises his arms, wrapping one hand around a fist and swings down STRAIGHT INTO KORINDOS' throat.

QUINN
(screaming)
I'm only human -- !!!

And then whatever he says next is lost in howling fury. It's impossible to make out Quinn's words -- it could be noise, it could be Wade's name -- he SHRIEKS with uncontrolled anger as he drives his fists into the fallen Kromagg over and over again -- you can't tell if he's shouting or crying --

From a distance, Maggie is pressing the baby into Christina's arms and then looks at Quinn's frenzied assault. She's horrified. Rembrandt and Colin are stunned but frozen --

And we go back to Quinn. He strikes Korindos in the throat once more and then stops for a moment. Seething. Shaking.

Inside the suit, Korindos has coughed up enough blood to smear the helmet visor. He's beaten and helpless. But Quinn looks down at this Kromagg, seeing Christina's rapist, Wade's captor --

And then Quinn notes the breathing hose in the front of the suit. Protecting Korindos from the lethal virus in the air of this Earth. And Quinn reaches for the hose, grips it and PULLS. The hose is TIGHTLY inserted, it resists Quinn's hand -- Korindos' mouth forms a plea for mercy --

And Quinn TEARS THE HOSE from the suit.

Korindos' face tightens into a rictus of agony. His body seizes. Convulses. From inside the suit, there's the sound of choked inhalation as Korindos struggles to breathe air that's poisoning him. And Quinn watches as Korindos unleashes a terrible, shuddering, gagging noise and is silent and still.

Quinn looks away -- looking backwards, looking at Rembrandt, at Maggie, at Colin and Christina. Horror and regret in his eyes, his body still shaking with rage -- and the sliders look at Quinn with sadness and pity.

And then Jonathan lets out a gasp. Christina runs to her fallen father, holding her child in his arms. Jonathan's eyes show the life fading from him. He looks at his daughter and grandson one last time.

JONATHAN
Take good care of him.

CHRISTINA
Oh, Daddy --

JONATHAN
Don't cry, love. Don't cry...

Christina holds the baby up so Jonathan can see him.

CHRISTINA
He has a name now. Jonathan.
After you.

But Jonathan is gone.

And Christina weeps over her father's body while Quinn remains on top of the helpless, disarmed and defeated soldier he just murdered in a fit of rage.

FADE TO:

EXT. GRIFFIN HOUSE

Colin, Maggie and Rembrandt come out of the house. Christina and the baby are with them. Quinn is standing on the grass, gazing off into the distance. Blank and lost. He can hear them coming behind him.

Quinn, not looking at Christina, addresses her.

QUINN
You know, there's no guarantee
where we'll go. We could slide
right into a Kromagg war or
some other madness --

He trails off on the last word. Madness.

CHRISTINA
There's nothing for me here.
(indicating her child)
Or for him.

Quinn finally turns. He looks at the child. The infant born from an act of violence and violation. And he looks at Christina. She cradles the child, gentle and caring. She was raped. But now she's here. Alive. Intact. Kind and loving.

There's a flicker of hope in Quinn's face. For himself. For Wade. He nods to Christina. He will take her to a new world and a new beginning.

191 (edited by intangirble 2015-12-07 19:48:58)

Re: Rewatch Podcast

...seriously, Diggs is a minister? What church? I really need to attend the Church of Diggs now.

Augh, I think I sent my email to the wrong address last time. *the*rewatchpodcast, not rewatchpodcast, right? Damn confusing generic names. And speaking of communication errors - ireactions, are my PMs reaching you at all?

But Cory, Tom, ireactions - I had a serious lump in my throat listening to the dramatic reading of ireactions' script. As in, I was driving and I very nearly had to pull over just from how intense it was. I loved the script when I first read it, and that reading really brought it to life. Wow.

Such a lot to think about. And such a sad sense of loss, at the many improvements that could've been obviously, and trivially, made.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

intangirble wrote:

...seriously, Diggs is a minister? What church? I really need to attend the Church of Diggs now.

Bible Believers Missionary Baptist Church in Lakewood CA

http://www.biblebelieversmbc.org/meet-the-pastor

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Heh... That's about an hour away.

I may just have to go see him.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Well, this is embarrassing. I have not been looking at my private messages on this forum. I will from now on.

I have been a bad moderator. As punishment, I shall watch "Data World." And also because -- I have to. I'll respond to the PMs tomorrow.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

The presence of the Colin double does not preclude the possibility that he is a clone of Quinn.  It just means the Colin double is also a Quinn double.  We know doubles don't always look like the characters.  See Logan St Clair and any time Rembrandt's double is played by Cleavant's brother.  The Kromaggs would have made the quickest and easiest adjustment to make Colin look different from Quinn, which means a Colin double is a likely look for a Quinn double.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

It doesn't even have to be a clone, just a real Colin brainwashed like Rembrandt and/or Rembrandt's dad. This allows for doubles while keeping the arc intact. It also removes the incredulous idea that the Kromaggs can clone humans but can't seem to do the same for Kromaggs!

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Transmodiar wrote:

It doesn't even have to be a clone, just a real Colin brainwashed like Rembrandt and/or Rembrandt's dad. This allows for doubles while keeping the arc intact. It also removes the incredulous idea that the Kromaggs can clone humans but can't seem to do the same for Kromaggs!

That's also possible.

Being able to clone humans and not Kromaggs is defensible as well.  Kromagg DNA could be more complex.  Maybe they can clone Kromaggs but they know it's a dead end in terms of saving the species.  Replicative fading would set in after only a few generations.  Maybe they have ethical issues with cloning their own that they don't have with lesser species like humans.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Well, let me ask you this: what's a bigger priority for a Dynasty that can't have children? Solve that problem, build a series of breeding camps to create half Kromagg, half human children (ensuring the Dynasty's extinction in 2-4 generations), or master the cloning of human beings?

Earth Prime | The Definitive Source for Sliders™

Re: Rewatch Podcast

Transmodiar wrote:

Well, let me ask you this: what's a bigger priority for a Dynasty that can't have children? Solve that problem, build a series of breeding camps to create half Kromagg, half human children (ensuring the Dynasty's extinction in 2-4 generations), or master the cloning of human beings?

They may have perfected human cloning before the attack that stopped them from having children.  Maybe they got the human cloning technology from a world they conquered and found it didn't work on Kromagg DNA.  Maybe they are cloning Kromaggs on some worlds we didn't see.

You're also assuming the Dynasty will act rationally.  That has not been the norm for Kromaggs we've seen.  They act from emotion over reason almost all the time.

Re: Rewatch Podcast

I suspect the problem is this: when Marc Scott Zicree laid down the Colin-clone plot, there was no concept for the Kromaggs being essentially sterilized. Then "Genesis" sent Wade to a rape camp and Zicree frantically suggested that the Kromaggs needed rape camps because they were otherwise unable to reproduce and continue their race, which contradicted the idea that Kromaggs could create clones. The Colin-double did not curtail the idea that Colin was a clone; the "Lipschitz Live" Colin could have also been a clone -- a test subject to see if the human behavioural conditioning would allow a clone to function among other humans.

Another thought on the confusing nature of McArthur Mallory being Colin's stepfather yet having the same last name -- maybe he's a cousin or brother or some other relative of Michael Mallory, whom Amanda Mallory fell for and married after Michael's death. It happens.

Tom took issue with the Earth Prime review where Lloyd Quinto, writing as a Kromagg, declares that he loved "Mother and Child" and also loved Wade Welles several times a day for months on end. To me, that is a clear critique and condemnation of David Peckinpah, "Genesis" and Kari Wuhrer. Kari Wuhrer, when asked how Sabrina would be written out, replied -- and I quote -- "With some humour! You see, she's good breeding stock!" Peckinpah also thought it was hilarious and would upset Sabrina Lloyd. Quinto's review shows how unacceptable such humour is; rape is not a laughing matter, it's not a situation that can be raised and forgotten; it haunts and lingers and is forever present. The review started out as an amusing piece of Kromagg propaganda, so transparently delusional and deceitful that it's funny -- only for the fun to be revealed as sickening and poisonous. The fact that Tom reacted the way he did is a credit to the writing.

By the way, I am really short on behind the scenes info for "Data World," but Kari Wuhrer keeps grabbing her breasts throughout the episode. I theorize that her implants leaked during this episode and were causing soreness and pain. Having little else to discuss, I am going to supply Tom and Cory with enough information to perform an oral history of Kari Wuhrer's breasts and their relevance to commodification and objectification of women in visual media. (Not that they'll be obligated to do it.)