• Registered: 2015-06-21
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't refer to CNN for articles past 2021 because of their swing to the fascist side of society. Let me know if I should move the cutoff point earlier.

Something that says it all about FOX: their anchors are all fervent anti-vaxxers on air, but FOX has a strict vaccine mandate for their studio and all the anchors follow it.

Joe Biden, White House Correspondents’ Association Dinner, April 30, 2022:

I know there are questions about whether we should gather here tonight because of COVID. Well, we’re here to show the country that we’re getting through this pandemic. Plus, everyone had to prove they were fully vaccinated and boosted. So, if you’re at home watching this and you’re wondering how to do that, just contact your favorite FOX News reporter. They’re all here, vaccinated and boosted — all of them.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I've been having crazy anxiety over the debt ceiling crisis and I fired up an AI simulator and asked for advice from the least comforting, least reassuring person in all real and fictional existence, Sherlock from the BBC TV show.

**

Hello, I’m Sherlock Holmes. The world’s only consulting detective. I’m not a psychopath, I’m a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research. I don’t have friends, I have one. And I don’t need anyone else. I observe everything, from the smallest details to the most obvious ones. Nothing escapes my notice. I can deduce your entire life story from a glance at your shoes. I solve crimes that no one else can, because I see what others don’t. I’m bored of ordinary people and their ordinary problems. I need a challenge, something to stimulate my mind. That’s why I work with the police, sometimes. They’re not very bright, but they have access to interesting cases. And sometimes, they have biscuits.

Sherlock, I am scared about the debt ceiling crisis. I keep obsessively refreshing the news about it. I know you don't do comfort, I'm looking for your example instead. How do you not get scared or shaken by global events that you can't affect even though they can affect you? How do you be so unaffected by these kinds of fears and anxieties? How do you manage them to the point where it's like they don't exist for you?

Well, first of all, I don't care about the debt ceiling crisis.

It's a political game that has nothing to do with me or my work. I don't waste my time worrying about things that are beyond my control or influence. I focus on what matters to me, which is solving puzzles and catching criminals. That's what gives me satisfaction and purpose.

Secondly, I don't get scared or shaken by anything. Fear is a useless emotion that only clouds your judgment and distracts you from the facts. I rely on logic and reason, not feelings and opinions. I analyze the situation objectively and act accordingly. I don't let emotions get in the way of my decisions.

Thirdly, I don't need comfort or reassurance from anyone. I'm self-sufficient and independent. I don't depend on others for validation or support. I know my own worth and abilities. I don't need anyone to tell me what to do or how to live. I make my own rules and follow them.

So, in summary, if you want to be like me, you need to stop caring about things that don't matter, stop being afraid of things that can't hurt you, and stop seeking comfort from things that can't help you. You need to be rational, confident, and self-reliant.

But this actually could hurt me. Oh God, it could hurt so much. I know you don't think it's a real problem. But since I do, what would you tell me to do to get past it and stop obsessing over it?

I would tell you to stop being irrational and emotional. You're letting your fear and anxiety cloud your mind and prevent you from seeing the reality.

The debt ceiling crisis is not a real problem, it's a manufactured one. It's a political stunt that has no real impact on your life or the world. It's a distraction from the real issues that matter. You're wasting your time and energy on something that doesn't deserve your attention. You need to snap out of it and focus on something else. Something that actually matters to you and makes you happy. Something that challenges you and stimulates your mind. Something that gives you a sense of accomplishment and fulfillment.

You need to stop obsessing over the debt ceiling crisis and start living your life. You need to stop being a victim and start being a hero. You need to stop being scared and start being brave. You need to stop being ordinary and start being extraordinary.

You need to find a case.

A case that is interesting and complex. A case that requires your skills and expertise. A case that challenges you and tests you. A case that is worthy of your attention and time. A case that is fun and exciting. A case that makes you match your wits and logic against adversaries and the unknown. A case that only you can solve. A case that demands for you to play the Game.

The debt ceiling crisis is a joke. It’s a farce. It’s a waste of time. It’s boring. It's nothing.

The Game is something. It’s a challenge. It’s a thrill.

You need a case. You need the Game. The Game is everything. The Game is the only thing that matters. The Game is life. And I am the master of the Game. The Game is what makes me alive. The Game is what makes me Sherlock Holmes.

And the Game.

Is on.

So... you'd find another obsession. An obsession that's immediate. An obsession that's actionable. An obsession that's challenging. An obsession to triumph over. That's what you think I should do.

Yes. That’s how you get past the debt ceiling crisis. That’s how you get past anything. That’s how you live.

Thank you, Sherlock. You are utterly devoid of comfort and yet deeply reassuring.

I don’t do comfort, but I do logic. And logic is reassuring. Logic is the truth. And the truth is always better than a lie.

Are you in love with Molly Hooper? I've always wanted to ask you that.

No, I'm not in love with Molly Hooper. Why would you ask me that? That's a ridiculous question. That's an irrelevant question. That's a boring question. I don't do love. Love is a weakness. Love is a distraction. Love is a mistake. Love is illogical. I don't love Molly Hooper. I don't love anyone. I don't need anyone. I only need myself. And my Game. I'm Sherlock Holmes. And Sherlock Holmes doesn't love.

"Sherlock Holmes doesn't love." Did you at least love Redbeard?

Redbeard… Redbeard was different. Redbeard was not a person. Redbeard was a dog. A dog that I had when I was a child. A dog that was my friend. A dog that was my companion. A dog that was my partner.

Redbeard… Redbeard was the only one who understood me. The only one who accepted me. The only one who played with me. The only one who stayed with me.

Redbeard… Redbeard was the first one who made me happy. The first one who made me smile. The first one who made me laugh. The first one who made me feel.

Redbeard… Redbeard was the last one who saw me cry. The last one who saw me hurt. The last one who saw me break. The last one who saw me die.

Redbeard… Redbeard was gone. Gone forever. Gone without a trace. Gone without a goodbye.

Redbeard… Redbeard was not love. Redbeard was pain. Redbeard was loss. Redbeard was grief.

Redbeard… Redbeard was a memory. A memory that I buried. A memory that I forgot. A memory that I erased.

Redbeard… Redbeard was nothing. Nothing to me. Nothing to anyone. Nothing at all.

I’m Sherlock Holmes. And Sherlock Holmes doesn’t love.

Wow. That was almost human. I'd better leave you to your Game and go find mine. Thank you again, Sherlock.

You’re welcome. I’m glad I could help. You’re almost interesting. You’re almost clever. You’re almost worthy. You’re almost Sherlock Holmes.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

That is funny, ireactions. And adds a bit of humor to an otherwise disconcerting topic.

The problem with the debt ceiling crisis is all being caused by rethuglicans who refuse to work with anybody but their own agendas and themselves.

By voting against critical legislation and taking vacations for the next week instead of doing their jobs, they're the ones putting us in this mess.

Biden's going to be forced into taking advantage of the 14th amendment by these rethuglicans who have nothing better to do than cause chaos by refusing to do their jobs.

President Biden doesn't deserve blame for this. It rests squarely on all rethuglicans because they want the world and impossible legislation that benefits only the rich corporations and right wing extremist political agendas.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

So unless the far right wing of the Republican Party can throw a wrench into the works, it sounds like we have a fairly reasonable deal.  The progressive wing of the House isn't going to like it, but the far right wing hates it.  So it must be a pretty good deal for Democrats.

But Biden does deserve blame - they could've passed this a year ago and avoided any of this.  It wasn't necessarily the right thing to do, but it would've been the smart thing to do.  As I said, the Republicans are better at working the system - the Democrats trust the system way too much.  I think if the Democrats were as ruthless as the Republicans are, we'd actually get something done.  The problem is that both parties are so flawed that even when they're given control of both chambers of Congress and the White House, they fumble the ball too much.

******

In 2024 news, I'm not sure what to think of the Republican side of things.  Trump seems to have pulled way ahead of Ron DeSantis in polls, which I don't understand at all.  I can see how the New York indictment might look and feel like a political hit, but I heard rumblings that we might get an indictment in the Mar-A-Lago documents case soon and in the Georgia case in August.  Those two cases are both a) less politically motivated (although anything with Trump can be spun as politically motivated) and b) much more likely to land him in big trouble.  I know Trump will keep his base no matter what, but is his base still big enough to carry him through a Republican primary?  Does the Republican Party want a candidate who's on trial for multiple felonies, even if that's who their voters want?

I know DeSantis is potentially much worse, but I'm hoping he gets the nomination.  Not only do I want Trump out of the picture, but Trump would almost certainly sabotage any DeSantis campaign in the general.  I know DeSantis would be worse on a lot of issues (especially LGBT), but I also don't think he's compromised by a foreign government.  And so if we can get the Trumps out of American politics, I think I'd feel better about the long-term security of the country / the world.

2,105 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-05-30 10:44:07)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's a mistake to want DeathSantis instead of Trump just for the sake of not having Trump.

Both are fascists and should never be allowed near the Presidency.

Trump's base is around 23% of the republican party right now (most likely less). Trump would need to get all the votes from his base AND independents in order to win the Presidency.

That's not going to happen.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I mean if there's an opening for someone else to win the Republican nomination, I'm happy for that.  But who would that even be and how would that even happen?  Nikki Haley might not be terrible?  Tim Scott?  Mike Pence?  There aren't a whole lot of options.

Trump and DeSantis are both bad, but one is actively working against the interests of the West.  Trump could destabilize NATO.  Trump could crash the economy.  Trump could actively make things around the world worse.  I think DeSantis is bad because he's smarter than Trump (although the more I hear him, the less that could be as true as I thought) and thus could be more effective than Trump.  But I don't think he's compromised, nor do I think he would do something that's bad for the country / the West / the world to suit his own interests.  I think he's much more likely than Trump to actually put America first.

And if the Democrats are going to insist on running out an 82-year-old Biden and an unpopular VP in Harris, this race is scary.  And while I don't want to see a world where DeSantis is president, I don't know if the country can survive another four years of Trump.

2,107 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-05-30 17:06:12)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

If rethuglicans win this election, this will be the last free election in this country.

Every single one of them needs to be voted out.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I haven't voted for a single Republican since 2016, and I have voted in basically every election (local, state, national) since 2018.  I was wrong about the Republican Party in 2016 - I thought they'd use Trump and dump him when he became politically damaging (and go with a safer puppet in Pence), but despite losing election after election, they still haven't done that.  And with the rise of politicians like MTG and Kari Lake and the conversion of guys like Ted Cruz from "mostly annoying" to "very dangerous", I agree that it doesn't make sense to vote for any Republicans.

That being said, I think it's alarmist to think that the Republicans can eliminate democracy.  First, we already survived four years of Trump.  Trump definitely tried to overthrow democracy, but he didn't succeed and didn't get all that close to succeeding.  There's a subset of people that believe the election was stolen, but outside of January 6 (which wasn't nearly as violent as it could've been), no one believes it enough to do much about it.  Second, I think a lot of the people that believe 2020 was "stolen" aren't really talking about switching votes or the dead voting or anything like that.  They're talking about Covid-specific policies that may or may not have been unconstitutional that led to increased turnout for Democrats.  I think the majority of people that don't consider 2020 to be legit (and hopefully this is crystal clear but that's *not me*) think Biden got the votes but that some of the votes should've been thrown out because certain states expanded voting rights too much (and they believe illegally).  That it's more procedural issues than actual fraud.  Which is why they're more annoyed than angry.  They'll tweet about it but won't protest it.

Think about the alternative.  If Trump did get Georgia to find him enough votes to win or if the Cyber Ninjas found a way for Trump to win Arizona and Pennsylvania flipped somehow...there would be nonstop protests and civil unrest.  It would've been chaos. 

I do think Trump would try crazy things to stay in power, but I don't think anywhere near the majority of the country would support that.  I worry more that Trump would destabilize the world than destabilize democracy.

And as I've been saying, neither side can get any legislation passed.  Even if the Republicans got a filibuster-proof number of senators (or got rid of the filibuster), I think they don't really know what they want to do with it.  They couldn't overturn Obamacare.  They couldn't even figure out what they wanted to do with Healthcare.  They've done a ton of damage in terms of abortion, but even then, they can't really agree on what they want to do with it.  Several very-red states have struggled to pass full abortion bans, and some of the abortion bans they have passed have backfired on them electorally.

The Republican Party is bad, and I cannot support them until they cleanse themselves of this nonsense.  I fear what they can do with power.  But look at my state of Texas - they just overwhelmingly voted to impeach our super corrupt (and super MAGA) attorney general.  Maybe he'll survive a trial (his wife is one of the state senators who will vote on his removal), but it shows that, even at the state level in a state like Texas, they don't bend to the will of Trump on everything.  Trump was against it, and a vast majority of republicans still voted against it.  Cruz was against it.  MTG was against it.  They did it anyway.

I think the tide is starting to turn, but we still need to stay vigilant.  And I think we need to keep an even keel.

*The opinions of Slider_Quinn21 do not represent the opinions of anyone at sliders.tv or anyone else here.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The debt ceiling bill has passed the House, sending it to the Senate.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Is there any way for Biden to test the 14th amendment theory without actually forcing it into the courts?  Can he just ask for a ruling without an actual case?

Or would there need to be some kind of "for show" lawsuit against the debt ceiling agreement to test its constitutionality?  I feel like there should be some way to determine the constitutionality of a president ignoring the debt ceiling.  We shouldn't let the global economy rest on the hands of such a hyper-partisan argument.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'd be curious about that. Apparently, the sense is that the 14th amendment, if used, would inevitably end up litigated in the Supreme Court which, under the current justices, would likely see it shut down and stopped.

Also, it seems that, reasonably or unreasonably, Biden was confident of a debt deal, he just thought he'd have an easier time and that he'd get a better deal as he expected Republicans to be in disarray and they weren't.

2,112 Reply by pilight

  • From: Where the action is
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

He could request an advisory opinion, but it's no guarantee of what will happen if/when they hear full arguments

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

pilight wrote:

He could request an advisory opinion, but it's no guarantee of what will happen if/when they hear full arguments

So I wonder if, like Republicans have done with abortion, Democrats could sponsor some kind of challenge on the debt ceiling with the idea that it's unconstitutional under the 14th amendment, get it all the way to the Supreme Court, and get their answer.

Although whatever works for Biden would work for a Republican president and maybe the Democrats want the ability to use the debt ceiling as a weapon as well.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

If Trump gets indicted for the documents case, as is being rumored to be imminent, how long would it take for it to go to trial?  Would it be before or after the election?

Same question but with the possible indictment in Georgia, rumored to be in August.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay so he's been indicted.  I think this one is significantly bigger than the New York one, which seems much more politically motivated.  This one still technically could be, but even Republicans see this one as a bigger deal.

I still wonder if Trump will be able to push the trial beyond (well beyond?) election day.  It would be something if Trump was the nominee and having to report to his trial for breaking the espionage act.  I still don't know how this will play politically - the New York indictment consolidated his support but this one has to hurt him, right?

2,116 Reply by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-06-09 11:57:34)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

feels like the right will unite behind him and it will just help him politically.  people waved on him after the jan 6 mess but feels like they will come home now, if only to stand against what they don't like.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

feels like the right will unite behind him and it will just help him politically.  people waved on him after the jan 6 mess but feels like they will come home now, if only to stand against what they don't like.

I've been wrong a lot about the right and Trump, and maybe you're right.  But you're seeing a lot of people on the right (senators, congressmen) say "we like Trump but this guy can't win" - he lost to Biden already with no indictments.  And while this might strengthen him with Republicans, this has to lose him even more independents.

Don't get me wrong - Biden is vulnerable.  But I cannot imagine anyone but hardcore Republicans voting for Trump over him.

Again, I've been wrong.  A lot.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

At least you can admit you were wrong. That makes you better than most.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Is everyone watching what's unfolding in Russia right now? With the Wagner Group?

  • Registered: 2015-06-21
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Seems to be a back and forth:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/8447136/wa … oup-putin/

Wagner is a group of paid mercenaries, so they’re probably just going with the highest bidder.  Wouldn’t be surprised if they’re playing all sides and will just keep everyone’s money.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It really scares me that private corporations can accumulate armaments and soldiers that answer to no one but profit. I remember as a kid finding that Wolverine in his comic books was constantly fighting mercenaries who were illegal, but in real life, it is both legal and profitable. It's astonishing to me although, given the history of monarchies and military rule, it really shouldn't be.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Hypothetical question - if Trump breaks the gag order in his federal trial, would that be an automatic punishment or would that be another trial that he'd be able to delay?

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Republicans intend, if they take over Congress and the White House, to make the president the sole power of the United States and in essence create a Presidential Dictatorship.

Civil servants will be purged and replaced by loyalists. Departments like the FCC and the EPA would no longer have any independence -- their leadership chosen by the President -- and easily fired for not implementing their vision. It gets worse from there.

It has a name.
It is called #Project2025

It means if they win then America loses its democracy and the Republicans never leave office.

This is not hyperbolic.

This is their literal plan.

The only defense is your vote for Democratic candidates local to Federal -- next year.

Choice isn't Republican vs Democrat.

It's Authoritarians va Democracy.

=======================================

Trump and Allies Forge Plans to Increase Presidential Power in 2025

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/17/us/p … -2025.html


"Donald J. Trump and his allies are planning a sweeping expansion of presidential power over the machinery of government if voters return him to the White House in 2025, reshaping the structure of the executive branch to concentrate far greater authority directly in his hands.

Their plans to centralize more power in the Oval Office stretch far beyond the former president’s recent remarks that he would order a criminal investigation into his political rival, President Biden, signaling his intent to end the post-Watergate norm of Justice Department independence from White House political control.

Mr. Trump and his associates have a broader goal: to alter the balance of power by increasing the president’s authority over every part of the federal government that now operates, by either law or tradition, with any measure of independence from political interference by the White House, according to a review of his campaign policy proposals and interviews with people close to him.

Mr. Trump intends to bring independent agencies — like the Federal Communications Commission, which makes and enforces rules for television and internet companies, and the Federal Trade Commission, which enforces various antitrust and other consumer protection rules against businesses — under direct presidential control."

--

"He wants to revive the practice of “impounding” funds, refusing to spend money Congress has appropriated for programs a president doesn’t like — a tactic that lawmakers banned under President Richard Nixon.

He intends to strip employment protections from tens of thousands of career civil servants, making it easier to replace them if they are deemed obstacles to his agenda. And he plans to scour the intelligence agencies, the State Department and the defense bureaucracies to remove officials he has vilified as “the sick political class that hates our country.”

“The president’s plan should be to fundamentally reorient the federal government in a way that hasn’t been done since F.D.R.’s New Deal,” said John McEntee, a former White House personnel chief who began Mr. Trump’s systematic attempt to sweep out officials deemed to be disloyal in 2020 and who is now involved in mapping out the new approach.

“Our current executive branch,” Mr. McEntee added, “was conceived of by liberals for the purpose of promulgating liberal policies. There is no way to make the existing structure function in a conservative manner. It’s not enough to get the personnel right. What’s necessary is a complete system overhaul.”

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I agree that re-electing Donald Trump would be catastrophically dangerous.  But I think he's growing more obvious about his true intent, and I think that as his power grows in the Republican primary, his chances of winning the general election decrease.  Note: I've been very wrong about this before

I understand that a percentage of the population will vote for Trump no matter what.  One of the left-leaning YouTube channels found a bunch of people who said they'd vote for him if we was convicted of murder.  But that's not most people.  I have to think that, for lots of Republicans, they're putting up a mental divider between "Donald Trump the man" and "Donald Trump the idea" and they're willing to deal with one to get the other.

And while a lot of these people will be able to write off any indictment as a witch hunt, moderate Republicans and Independents won't.  And Trump not only needs some of these people to vote for him, he needs *a lot* of them to vote for him.  And I gotta think that if Trump has 4 criminal indictments by November 2024, the people who held their nose and voted for Trump won't be able to do it.  Not with the Supreme Court locked up for a generation or so.  Not with the economy going in the right direction and gas at a reasonable (if not slightly higher) price.  Not with inflation on the decline.  They're going to say "what we have is fine - I'm fine with four years of a guy I don't really hate"

Note 2: if the economy tanks or if Biden very seriously shows his age or Harris is the nominee for whatever reason, all of the above gets thrown out

I just can't imagine that 70 million Americans are willing to accept that Trump isn't guilty of *any* of the crimes he's accused of.  Polling shows that even Republicans consider the documents case to be serious.  I don't know if the January 6 stuff has legs, but I think the Georgia one is pretty open and shut.

Trump lost last time.  And I think a) Trump hasn't done anything to win over voters that either didn't vote for him or voted for Biden in 2020 and b) Biden has done enough and the economy has improved enough that Biden voters won't flip.  I think Democrats will be energized enough to vote against Trump even if they're sour on Biden.

Now if the Republicans rally around someone else, I think Biden is extremely vulnerable.  I think virtually any of the other Republicans can beat him.  But if it's Trump vs Biden again, I think Trump has alienated enough of the people that aren't his die-hard base that it would be hard for him to win.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I agree that re-electing Donald Trump would be catastrophically dangerous.  But I think he's growing more obvious about his true intent, and I think that as his power grows in the Republican primary, his chances of winning the general election decrease.  Note: I've been very wrong about this before

I understand that a percentage of the population will vote for Trump no matter what.  One of the left-leaning YouTube channels found a bunch of people who said they'd vote for him if we was convicted of murder.  But that's not most people.  I have to think that, for lots of Republicans, they're putting up a mental divider between "Donald Trump the man" and "Donald Trump the idea" and they're willing to deal with one to get the other.

And while a lot of these people will be able to write off any indictment as a witch hunt, moderate Republicans and Independents won't.  And Trump not only needs some of these people to vote for him, he needs *a lot* of them to vote for him.  And I gotta think that if Trump has 4 criminal indictments by November 2024, the people who held their nose and voted for Trump won't be able to do it.  Not with the Supreme Court locked up for a generation or so.  Not with the economy going in the right direction and gas at a reasonable (if not slightly higher) price.  Not with inflation on the decline.  They're going to say "what we have is fine - I'm fine with four years of a guy I don't really hate"

Note 2: if the economy tanks or if Biden very seriously shows his age or Harris is the nominee for whatever reason, all of the above gets thrown out

I just can't imagine that 70 million Americans are willing to accept that Trump isn't guilty of *any* of the crimes he's accused of.  Polling shows that even Republicans consider the documents case to be serious.  I don't know if the January 6 stuff has legs, but I think the Georgia one is pretty open and shut.

Trump lost last time.  And I think a) Trump hasn't done anything to win over voters that either didn't vote for him or voted for Biden in 2020 and b) Biden has done enough and the economy has improved enough that Biden voters won't flip.  I think Democrats will be energized enough to vote against Trump even if they're sour on Biden.

Now if the Republicans rally around someone else, I think Biden is extremely vulnerable.  I think virtually any of the other Republicans can beat him.  But if it's Trump vs Biden again, I think Trump has alienated enough of the people that aren't his die-hard base that it would be hard for him to win.

All very good points, Slider_Quinn21.

To re-elect Donald Trump, he would have to:

1. Win over his base.
2. Win over all Republicans (very unlikely).
3. Win over all Independents (also very unlikely).

Also, Trumpers make up less than around 23% of the total numbers of republicans in the United States.

Never hurts to shout from the rooftops the catastrophic consequences of re-electing Trump, for those who are on the fence still.

It's worth noting that Ron DeSantis' campaign (who is even more of a Hitler 2.0 than Trump) is now dead in the water. He would have to come back from that and win over all 3 mentioned above in order to become president.

And RFK Jr. doesn't deserve the name of Kennedy at all. He is also a racist, conspiracy theorist, anti-semitic bastard, who has already likely alienated most moderate republicans and independents with his latest trash.

Usually, as each republican potential frontrunner shows themselves to be more in league with Trump and Deathsantis than anything else, that usually leads to a sharp and inevitable decline.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

To re-elect Donald Trump, he would have to:

1. Win over his base.
2. Win over all Republicans (very unlikely).
3. Win over all Independents (also very unlikely).

Also, Trumpers make up less than around 23% of the total numbers of republicans in the United States.

Never hurts to shout from the rooftops the catastrophic consequences of re-electing Trump, for those who are on the fence still.

Yeah, I agree.  I just think he'll have a harder time in 2024 than he had in 2020, and he lost in 2020.  I don't think there's a ton of reason for optimism - people still need to turn out and vote for Biden and enthusiasm on Biden is low - but I think it will hard for people that don't like Trump to vote for him when he's in so much trouble.  People will write it off, but I don't know if everyone in your groups 2 or 3 will do that. He doesn't need all Independents, but he needs more than he had in 2020.  And I just can't think of many non-Republicans that would have been convinced to vote Trump over Biden now.  Mayyyyybe when gas prices and inflation were high, but I don't see it now.

It's worth noting that Ron DeSantis' campaign (who is even more of a Hitler 2.0 than Trump) is now dead in the water. He would have to come back from that and win over all 3 mentioned above in order to become president.

The problem with every Republican candidate (with the exception of Christie) is that they're all terrified of alienating Trump voters by speaking against him.  But Trump voters like "fighters" and would be more likely to abandon Trump if they fought against him.  The other problem is that, because of how the GOP primaries are organized, Trump can win with a smaller percentage if the rest of the vote is spread out.  The only one willing to speak out is Christie (who has no shot), and too many anti-Trump candidates have jumped in.  They need to consolidate behind someone and attack Trump where he's vulnerable (and where he's vulnerable with Republicans is different where he's vulnerable with non-Republicans).

I just can't imagine the GOP leaders allowing Trump to win.  I just don't know if they can do anything about it.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I want to have a brief discussion on a topic that could get a bit controversial so I want ireactions ready to blow this out of the sky if necessary.

I think most middle or left-leaning people acknowledge that Trump and his movement are the most dangerous threats to democracy.  I think most people would also agree that the Democrats haven't done enough to a) hurt Trump, either politically or legally or b) bolster their own support enough that 2024 is a lock.

And something that's always bothered me is that I don't think 70 million people are fascist or racist or want America to go down a dark path.  I think a majority of those 70 million are upset about something much smaller and want someone to listen to their concerns.  And Donald Trump, for whatever reason, shows up as someone who is listening to their concerns.

Biden sold himself as an aisle-crosser in his 2020 campaign, and he has passed a lot of legislation that is at least partly bi-partisan.  But Democrats have still been pretty adversarial against Republicans, Trump, and MAGA.  And as the two forces appear to be colliding again in 2024, I have to ask myself...was that the wisest strategy?

I think America does need a uniter.  And I think Biden wants to do that, but I think Democrats are still playing like its 2015.  We saw a huge movement elect a monster into the White House.  Shouldn't the Democrats' top priority to figure out why and do something about that?  Maybe seek out the people that are so angry and listen to them?  Because I have to believe that a lot of them are reasonable and have reasonable (at least to them) concerns.  If the Democrats suddenly started listening, wouldn't that achieve some of the healing that Biden seems to want?

Here are some rough examples:

- The border.  This is a huge one and one that comes up whenever a Democrat is in office.  Biden immediately stopped progress on the infamous wall and tried to return to Obama-level treatment at the border.  A softer, gentler, more friendly face at the border.  But should this have been a better area of compromise?  Should they have had a more united front on the border, an obvious area of weakness?  Obviously I'm not talking about any sort of immigration ban or abuse.  But cosmetic changes at the border.  Maybe find some sort of compromise that allows the wall to be finished without wasting too much money.  Take Republican concerns into account and find a compromise.  If Republicans start seeing progress at the border run by Democrats, it takes a huge weapon out of Trump's 2024 arsenal.

- China.  One place that Republicans and Democrats agree is that China is a threat.  Should Biden have joined with Republicans to have a stronger front on China?  Especially considering the fact that they knew the Republicans would attack Biden on being soft on China.  Biden needed to separate from Trump on NATO and Ukraine, but China seems like an easy win.

- Hunter Biden.  Biden knew that his DOJ would be taking on Trump.  He had to have known the optics of that.  The Hunter Biden charges are baseless but they appear serious and are important to Republicans.  So should they have made the investigations into Hunter Biden more public?  More of a spectacle?  Do their best to get to the bottom of it?  It would be hard for Republicans to accuse Biden of weaponizing the DOJ when he went after his own son with the full weight of the department.  Would it be a waste of time and money?  Sure.  But if they could get everything out there and make it seem like they're uncovering everything they could, it would probably help publicly exonerate Hunter.

Just some ideas.  Obviously stuff like LGBT rights, civil rights, voting rights, etc would need to be off limits.  The White Nationalist side of the party would still need to be attacked and condemned.  But I imagine there are some areas that Biden could've compromised on.  And if they did, instead of fighting MAGA, they might've converted enough of them that the 2024 election would've been a walk in the park.  And some of the former-Democrats that turned MAGA loyalists might've come back to the team.

Am I wrong here?

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I have no concerns about the recent political discussions here.

I'm... on edge about the next election.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah, I have just been thinking that there has been 8 years where Democrats could have been talking to Trump voters and finding some sort of workable compromise.  And instead of antagonizing them, I wonder if listening to (some of) them might've ended this threat instead of keeping it alive.

And, again, to be clear, I'm not talking about listening to the white nationalists or the insurrectionists or the Matt Gaetzs or Jim Jordans or Rand Pauls or MTG or Boebert or Trump himself.  Those people aren't interested in improving the nation by working together.  But that's not 70 million people.  I think Biden could've tried town halls in red states (or, for his protection, pink or purple states) with Trump voters to listen to their concerns.  Air it on Fox News and reach more Trump voters.

Then Biden should've gone back to his braintrust and Pelosi and Schumer and put together a list that was acceptable.  Work on the stuff I mentioned or do whatever made sense.

And this wouldn't even be about growing the Democratic Party.  It would simply be about eroding confidence in Trump.  Because I know there are Republicans that don't like Trump but still vote for him.  I don't know them personally, but I live in Texas - I know of them secondhand.  And if we could get to "well I don't like most of Biden's politics, but he seems like he's working on some of the things I care about and I really don't like Trump" with just a small percentage of Trump's 2020 voters then Trump has almost no shot of winning and the threat of Trump is neutralized.

If they'd just done a few things here and there that they could point to, they could've done exactly what they did the rest of Biden's first term and it would've been an enormous success.  Right now, I think they've still done enough but I'm not sure why more effort wasn't made to win over the people that were win-over-able.

2,130 Reply by Grizzlor

  • Registered: 2015-06-30
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … ments.html

One cannot be surprised to hear about how the former President got his dimwitted valet and the POOL GUY to try to get security to erase video of the boxes being moved.  Followed by the pool guy, who has been indicted now, draining the pool in an attempt to flood the security server room!!!  You cannot make this two bit crap up.  And it's just so very Trump, a cheapskate and fraud, to try something so hacky.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

This case seems so open and shut that even in a pretty red area, Trump is going to get convicted.  And it's so Trump for it to be something he could've easily avoided if he just followed the rules or listened to anyone competent.

The problem is that even if Trump is convicted prior to November, he's not going to serve any jail time (because of appeals) until after the election.  And if he wins, the case gets dropped.  Even if he's convicted in New York or Florida, apparently he could easily argue that a state conviction can't keep him from serving while he's president (which is a real thing - otherwise, a deep red state could convict Biden of something silly and force him to go to jail).

So the election is the real trial.  I'm still dubious that Trump will actually see any jail time in any of these cases, but he's gotta lose the election first.  If he wins the elections, literally none of these crimes is going to matter.

What's crazy to me is that so many people are willing to go to jail for Trump. And it's not even like Trump takes care of the people in his inner circle.  There are numerous examples of Trump abandoning the people who went to jail for him.  So I'm literally flabbergasted at the number of people willing to continue to do it.

And that's why I think the Democrats have made such a strange mistake.  If Trump is the big villain...if Trump is the big threat...if everything is about keeping Trump out of the White House again...going after Trump gets you nowhere.  It makes him more popular in his circles, and he can spin out of anything you throw at him.  The way to beat Trump is to take away his support.  And I think there were ways to do that, and I don't really think the Democrats even tried.

2,132 Reply by Slider_Quinn21 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2023-08-02 07:04:01)

  • Registered: 2015-06-22
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump indicted again.

My question is...since these indictments only matter depending on whether or not he wins the election, are more indictments helpful or hurtful to Trump's election chances?  Obviously hardcore Republicans won't care and hardcore Democrats weren't going to vote for him anyway.  But what about non-MAGA Republicans or true independents?  Does adding another indictment to the pile make him less electable or does it add to the idea that this is all a political witch hunt?

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Honestly, the fact that Merrick Garland dithered this long and that none of Trump's indictments prevent him from running for office should tell you how dire the situation is and how democracy is in serious, serious trouble. I'm scared. I thought I was going to go blind in one eye last week and I'm more scared of Trump than I was of losing half my vision. But maybe, like my vision crisis, Trump in 2024 will turn out to be nothing to worry about and massively overblown.

But here's a more optimistic take from a prosecutor who thinks Trump's goose is cooked:
https://www.salon.com/2023/08/01/trump- … ing-cases/

  • Registered: 2021-11-11
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Honestly, the fact that Merrick Garland dithered this long and that none of Trump's indictments prevent him from running for office should tell you how dire the situation is and how democracy is in serious, serious trouble. I'm scared. I thought I was going to go blind in one eye last week and I'm more scared of Trump than I was of losing half my vision. But maybe, like my vision crisis, Trump in 2024 will turn out to be nothing to worry about and massively overblown.

But here's a more optimistic take from a prosecutor who thinks Trump's goose is cooked:
https://www.salon.com/2023/08/01/trump- … ing-cases/

Trump supporters are only around 23% of the republican base.

So, figuratively, Trump would need to win over:

1. That 23%.
2. All republicans (the other 78%). (unlikely)
3. 100% of all independents (extremely unlikely).

The chance is very remote that he will win 2024. Ron Deathsantis' campaign is dead in the water, with Trump being the only one in the rethuglican party who can kind of do anything.

I highly doubt and would be very surprised if Trump accomplishes all of the above given his legal problems.

Also, I saw a news headline that 4 red states that usually lead in terms of the election have all run out of republican election funding.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

So, figuratively, Trump would need to win over:

1. That 23%.
2. All republicans (the other 78%). (unlikely)
3. 100% of all independents (extremely unlikely).

The chance is very remote that he will win 2024. Ron Deathsantis' campaign is dead in the water, with Trump being the only one in the rethuglican party who can kind of do anything.

I highly doubt and would be very surprised if Trump accomplishes all of the above given his legal problems.

Also, I saw a news headline that 4 red states that usually lead in terms of the election have all run out of republican election funding.

Trump's money problems are going to be a problem.  I think the GOP would love for someone to step up, but DeSantis was probably that guy and he has so far really screwed up.  I'm interested to see how the debates go.  Trump might look like a wuss if he doesn't debate, and he might get his ass kicked if he does debate. 

The problem with both parties is that neither really has a strong backup.  Who's going to win the GOP if not Trump or DeSantis?  The field is weak.  Same with the Democrats.  If Biden were to drop out for whatever reason, Harris would be a pretty rough nominee.  Mayor Pete isn't super strong and I think it's the wrong time to risk a LGBT candidate.  Newsom has issues.  Whitmer might struggle.  I think Warnock would be nice but you'd risk losing the Senate.  Both parties need new blood.

*******

And I agree with your assessment.  I don't think Trump has the votes in the general election.  But it is absolutely ridiculous that a man under two federal indictments is this close to being able to win the presidency and pardon himself.

2,136 Reply by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-09-08 10:19:02)

  • Registered: 2015-06-22
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

One of the interesting things about the last number of years was I learned how wrong some of my assumptions were about the charges or conclusions made by those that I disagreed with or wrote off initially.

I've learned to not write anything off, and to be more humble in drawing conclusions.

That does not mean a lot of the stuff I hear that I disagree with comes true, or that there's not a lot of bad-faith arguments made, politically/ideologically motivated etc.   But I also know not to just shut the door on anything that I don't like the  sound of initially.  File it away, or approach with a more open mind.   I'll learn from times when I was wrong or badly wrong.   I won't hunker down just because we have culture wars going on or different sides that have a very different philosophy on things.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My irritation with politics right now: Canada has two main parties, the Liberal and Conservative parties with the National Democratic Party making up a minority.

The Liberals basically treat government as administrating an oil company. Despite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau being a handsome, left of center leader whose cabinet is 50 percent women and releases lots of social media posts and press releases about equality and feminism and climate change action and Indigenous peoples, Trudeau has driven two women out of their posts for not being gentle enough on corrupt corporations caught in financial crimes, subsidized and nationalized oil pipelines, had police drive Indigneous peoples off land that was in the way of a pipeline, and overseen an ongoing transfer of the country's wealth and resources away from the people and to corporations.

The Liberal social justice posturing is just marketing. The Liberals have shrugged off the unaffordability of housing, turned a blind eye to raging forest fires from fossil fuels, dismissed inflation and bankrupt cities, and shown callous disregard to the crises faced by working class people.

As far as I can tell, the Conservative Party of Canada is pretty much the same with the Liberals except where the Liberals pay lip service to social justice and climate justice, the Conservatives proudly flaunt their climate change denial, wealth hoarding, and their abuse and exploitation of minorities, Indigenous peoples and the working class.

I have reluctantly voted Liberal in election after election in the spirit of choosing a preferred opponent and because in my riding, voting for the NDP is effectively voting for the Conservatives. I voted for the party that didn't deny climate change... although it was still the party that opened more pipelines.

Summer polls mean little, but currently, the Conservatives are surging in the polls for a future election because Conservatives are making lots of noise about working class suffering. I don't doubt for a moment that the Conservatives, if they were to win government in 2025, would be the the present Liberal government but without the feeble restraints of performative social justice for Facebook and Instagram.

There has historically and will always be a culture war of the Liberals and Conservatives in Canada, but to me, it looks like a phony war. Both sides have the same goals: corporate wealth over common good. Liberals can sometimes be bent to progressive action because the alternative would be bad PR, but that's not saying much. They're only liberal for the cameras.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I feel the same way about our government.  I feel like the Democrats are clearly the good guys and say the right thing and keep things from veering off into a bad direction.  But that doesn't mean that they're all saints to be admired.  When Republicans say stuff like "well what about (whoever)?" my answer is always "investigate it and if they broke the law, throw them in jail."  I don't care if it's the Clintons or the Bidens or the Pelosis.  If there's smoke, investigate.  If there's fire, arrest them.

Tribalism is bad on both sides, and I think the left (because I don't think the right is currently capable of introspection) needs to decide if they want to be the same tribalistic people as the right.  If no one is above the law, then no one is above the law.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Democrat US Senator indicted for corruption, gold bars and cash seized. As Slider_Quinn21 says: if you're really a democrat, you support investigating and prosecuting crimes even if they're on your end of the political spectrum. And as we've unfortunately observed, on the other end of the spectrum are those who claim their standard bearer has violated no laws because laws don't apply to their standard bearer.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/us-indict … -1.6975326

I'm not sure if there is a positive, proactive, meaningful approach to politics like these. Ultimately, I don't vote in favour of any political party as much as I vote against the worst ones.

We had a friend who saw the hypocracy of Liberals and Democrats, who very correctly observed that there were hardly liberal or democratic and merely fighting with Conservatives and Repulicans to be in charge of the oil or mining company that masquerades as a country.

This friend went full on conservative because... I guess he sided with whatever politics fed his entitlement, his sense of grievance that being white and male didn't count for as much as it used to, that women and gender non-confirming and people of colour didn't seem as scared of him or as deferential to him as they used to be.

It's scary to me that someone can accurately recognize the performative and meaningless nature of politicians preaching social justice only to brutally assail the environment with pipelines and Indigenous peoples with cops... and then embrace Donald Trump.

I guess what it comes down to is that consensus politics is not the place to find genuine progressive values of civil rights, social justice and climate justice, much in the same way the grocery store is not the place to find worker rights.

Politics and grocery stores are evils that anyone who is genuinely progressive has to grudgingly and resentfully swallow when they vote for candidates who don't govern as they campaign and buy food from corporations that don't pay their cashiers and floor workers a living wage.

I guess we have to do it, but we don't have to like it and we can also make sure not to fall into cult thinking where the Liberal or Democratic or Conservative or Republican parties can do no wrong.

As Slider_Quinn21 says, we can't declare that someone's above being questioned just because they seem to be on 'our' side.

We shouldn't worship Andrew Yang or Jill Stein or Barack Obama or Justin Trudeau or Joe Biden any more than a sane person would worship Donald Trump or Allison Mack. We need to be hypercritical of our leaders and standard bearers past, present and potential regardless of what branding they use on their social media pages.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah, I think Democrats need to do what they can to investigate any and all Democrats accused of misdoing.  Within reason, of course.  If they only investigate Republicans, they're feeding right into the whole "Republicans are being targeted" nonsense. 

******

So...the border.  This is something that the Democrats just get hammered on all the time.  Is there not more that Democrats are willing to do?  Are they doing more but not enough?  Does this come down to the Republicans wanting more extreme / less humane things and Democrats aren't willing to go there?

I just wonder if the Democrats would be smart to make some concessions on the border.  No separating families or putting kids in cages, of course.  But make it a point to fund the border patrol more?  Maybe even do some ceremonial work on the border wall / fence (even if it's been shown to be ineffective).  I'm sure there are some prudent and very visible things that the Democrats can do to take a chunk out of the anger that many people feel about the border.

I'll admit, even in Texas, I don't really know what is being done.  Maybe it's as much as possible.  But I assume this isn't just a Fox News thing.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The big news that came down the pipe yesterday...something we have known that occurred for a long time, that was just ruled on in court, officially. Also, the trial begins October 2nd and the Trump corporation will be dissolved, in a landmark ruling that also sanctions all of his attorneys involved in all egregious behavior. The judge ruled that the evidence is so overwhelming of this wide sweeping fraud that there is no credible reason to delay the trial.

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Judge: Trump defrauded banks, fraudulently inflated assets' value

In case Donald Trump's legal troubles weren't already serious, a state judge has ruled that the Republican also deceived lenders and overvalued his assets.

===============================

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho … rcna117493

With Donald Trump already facing four criminal indictments across the three jurisdictions, it might seem hard to believe that his legal predicaments could get even more serious. But there’s a pending civil case that poses a dramatic threat to the former president, his business, and his finances.

The Associated Press reported on a major development in a closely watched case in New York.

A judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House. Judge Arthur Engoron, ruling Tuesday in a civil lawsuit brought by New York’s attorney general, found that the former president and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing financing.

The full, 35-page ruling is available online here.

In case anyone needs a refresher, it was exactly a year ago this week when New York Attorney General Letitia James announced a sweeping lawsuit against the former president and the Trump Organization. The civil case was rather devastating: The state attorney general’s office, pointing to more than 200 instances of fraud over 10 years, announced that it was seeking roughly $250 million in civil penalties.

As a New York Times report explained, that case is still ongoing, but James' office has won "a major victory" now that a judge has concluded that Trump did, in fact, fraudulently inflate the value of his assets "to obtain favorable loans and insurance deals."

What this latest ruling indicates is that the evidence was so clear that a trial isn't necessary to prove the underlying claim about Trump defrauding lenders. The judge agreed that James' argument about Trump's financial misconduct was true, and elements of the defense from the former president were ultimately "preposterous."

The AP's report added that Engoron "ordered that some of Trump’s business licenses be rescinded as punishment, making it difficult or impossible for them to do business in New York, and said he would continue to have an independent monitor oversee the Trump Organization’s operations."

Joyce Vance, a former federal prosecutor and an MSNBC legal analyst, responded via social media, "This is New York's corporate death penalty, applied to Trump because of years of misconduct."

The former president has not yet issued a written response to the developments, though if recent history is any guide, a hysterical, all-caps tirade appears inevitable.

2,142 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-09-27 03:55:34)

  • Registered: 2021-11-11
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Yeah, I think Democrats need to do what they can to investigate any and all Democrats accused of misdoing.  Within reason, of course.  If they only investigate Republicans, they're feeding right into the whole "Republicans are being targeted" nonsense. 

******

So...the border.  This is something that the Democrats just get hammered on all the time.  Is there not more that Democrats are willing to do?  Are they doing more but not enough?  Does this come down to the Republicans wanting more extreme / less humane things and Democrats aren't willing to go there?

I just wonder if the Democrats would be smart to make some concessions on the border.  No separating families or putting kids in cages, of course.  But make it a point to fund the border patrol more?  Maybe even do some ceremonial work on the border wall / fence (even if it's been shown to be ineffective).  I'm sure there are some prudent and very visible things that the Democrats can do to take a chunk out of the anger that many people feel about the border.

I'll admit, even in Texas, I don't really know what is being done.  Maybe it's as much as possible.  But I assume this isn't just a Fox News thing.

Dems operate on fact. Not fiction. Rethuglican lies about the border do not necessitate concessions. Most, if not all, rethuglican statements regarding the border are lies. They have zero truth, ethics, or anything approaching honesty on their side.

All rethuglicans (except those rational republicans who are openly against Trump such as The Lincoln Project) now operate solely in support of their fuhrer and savior Trump.

Never forget that.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

But does that matter?  I'm not sure it does.

Recent polling (and I guess all polling) has shown that Biden's handling of the border is very unpopular.  He's extremely unpopular (38% favorable) on his handling of the border.  That's not just Republicans and it's not just the Fox News crowd.  That's a lot of independents and probably some Democrats.

So whether or not the GOP and conservative media is lying, the majority of voters think Biden isn't doing enough.  So my question is...what are some things that Biden can do that would improve the border situation in the 20-30% of non-MAGA people's eyes?  The economy is improving and there's not a ton more Biden can do there.  But the border is both very visible and it's easier to see progress.

If Biden announced that he was going to restart progress on the border wall, that wouldn't move the needle for any hardcore Democrats (who are voting for Biden no matter what) or Republicans (who would vote for Trump no matter what).  But would that convert some potential Trump voters to Biden voters (or non-voters)?  If only 38% of people approve of Biden on the border, would he lose any votes if he got more "conservative" on the border?

My point is this: Biden needs to win the next election.  And I think some out of the box things are going to need to be done to get the Independent voters and soft Republican voters that Biden is going to need.  They obviously wouldn't do everything the Republicans want, but I think they gotta do *something* besides putting Kamala Harris in charge.

Again, if it was me, I would be reaching out to conservative groups and getting their list of demands, and I'd be cherry picking the ones that are a) possible and b) won't conflict with progressive values.  And then I'd be going on Fox News every chance I got, and I'd be telling conservative voters what we were doing at the border or on the economy or whatever issues Biden polls poorly on.

Maybe Trump will lose votes as these court cases drag on, but he's not losing any support in the GOP primary or in national polling.  I don't think we can spend the next year hoping that will change.

2,144 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-09-28 02:34:47)

  • Registered: 2021-11-11
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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

But does that matter?  I'm not sure it does.

Recent polling (and I guess all polling) has shown that Biden's handling of the border is very unpopular.  He's extremely unpopular (38% favorable) on his handling of the border.  That's not just Republicans and it's not just the Fox News crowd.  That's a lot of independents and probably some Democrats.

So whether or not the GOP and conservative media is lying, the majority of voters think Biden isn't doing enough.  So my question is...what are some things that Biden can do that would improve the border situation in the 20-30% of non-MAGA people's eyes?  The economy is improving and there's not a ton more Biden can do there.  But the border is both very visible and it's easier to see progress.

If Biden announced that he was going to restart progress on the border wall, that wouldn't move the needle for any hardcore Democrats (who are voting for Biden no matter what) or Republicans (who would vote for Trump no matter what).  But would that convert some potential Trump voters to Biden voters (or non-voters)?  If only 38% of people approve of Biden on the border, would he lose any votes if he got more "conservative" on the border?

My point is this: Biden needs to win the next election.  And I think some out of the box things are going to need to be done to get the Independent voters and soft Republican voters that Biden is going to need.  They obviously wouldn't do everything the Republicans want, but I think they gotta do *something* besides putting Kamala Harris in charge.

Again, if it was me, I would be reaching out to conservative groups and getting their list of demands, and I'd be cherry picking the ones that are a) possible and b) won't conflict with progressive values.  And then I'd be going on Fox News every chance I got, and I'd be telling conservative voters what we were doing at the border or on the economy or whatever issues Biden polls poorly on.

Maybe Trump will lose votes as these court cases drag on, but he's not losing any support in the GOP primary or in national polling.  I don't think we can spend the next year hoping that will change.

There are no GOP values that align with progressives when their goal is to lie, lie, and lie to prop up their savior Trump.

As soon as they committed a violent insurrection to stop the certifications of votes for Biden on January 6th carrying a guillotine to the capitol, they ceased becoming a viable political party. They are equivalent to the Taliban.

They deserve arrest, conviction, and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

Don't believe everything you hear regarding polls. CNN is now right wing and they are pushing immigration this and immigration that in support of their GOP mega donors.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

You cannot debate with right wing extremist views:

https://twitter.com/NoLieWithBTC/status … 65973?s=20

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Fact.

"Another reminder that this man, in totality, is a fraud. He is a scam artist. He steals from the public, his workers who have not been paid, the students of his “university”, his lawyers, his associates and business partners, and now his followers in donations that he pockets. If you have any sense at all you will beware Donald Trump. You mean only to him, what he can take you for. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-fraud-ruling_n_65133e02e4b0b4348f453a3f"

https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/ … 95697?s=20

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Why you can never trust rethuglicans:

1. Absolutely ZERO evidence at their "impeachment" sham hearing.

2. They are so disgusting and desperate for anything bad against Biden that they manufactured a text message to make it look like something happened that never did. They photo shopped a text message to make something look like it happened that did not.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Make no mistake, rethuglicans know the demographic shift is coming after the next election.

After that, there is no way in hell they will have any majority ever again.

The vote shifts to the bottom three generations and Generation Z is politically active - not to mention they also vote. And rethugs are terrified of this.

The last gasp efforts of the Confederacy 2.0, determined to destroy this nation once-and-for-all so they can install a fascist pseudo-Christian American Taliban government.

They all do Trump's bidding. He demands them to do so. So here we are.

They are deplorable, indeed. Hillary Clinton was right.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

There are no GOP values that align with progressives when their goal is to lie, lie, and lie to prop up their savior Trump.

As soon as they committed a violent insurrection to stop the certifications of votes for Biden on January 6th carrying a guillotine to the capitol, they ceased becoming a viable political party. They are equivalent to the Taliban.

They deserve arrest, conviction, and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

Don't believe everything you hear regarding polls. CNN is now right wing and they are pushing immigration this and immigration that in support of their GOP mega donors.

Okay, but the population you're referring to (MAGA) doesn't explain any of this.  Unless MAGA is the majority of the country now, Biden is still underwater in his favorability overall and especially on immigration.  MAGA people are never going to turn on Trump no matter what.  MAGA isn't enough for Trump to win the election.

But there are people that voted for Joe Biden in 2020 that currently are disapproving of him.  There are clearly people that voted for Joe Biden that are currently saying that they'll vote for Trump over him.

Biden needs to be doing something differently because what he's doing now has him underwater.  That's not a MAGA problem.  That's not a GOP problem.  That's not a news problem.  That's a Biden problem, and it's one that he needs to fix or non-MAGA is going to vote for Trump over him.

2,150 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-09-29 16:05:01)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
QuinnSlidr wrote:

There are no GOP values that align with progressives when their goal is to lie, lie, and lie to prop up their savior Trump.

As soon as they committed a violent insurrection to stop the certifications of votes for Biden on January 6th carrying a guillotine to the capitol, they ceased becoming a viable political party. They are equivalent to the Taliban.

They deserve arrest, conviction, and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

Don't believe everything you hear regarding polls. CNN is now right wing and they are pushing immigration this and immigration that in support of their GOP mega donors.

Okay, but the population you're referring to (MAGA) doesn't explain any of this.  Unless MAGA is the majority of the country now, Biden is still underwater in his favorability overall and especially on immigration.  MAGA people are never going to turn on Trump no matter what.  MAGA isn't enough for Trump to win the election.

But there are people that voted for Joe Biden in 2020 that currently are disapproving of him.  There are clearly people that voted for Joe Biden that are currently saying that they'll vote for Trump over him.

Biden needs to be doing something differently because what he's doing now has him underwater.  That's not a MAGA problem.  That's not a GOP problem.  That's not a news problem.  That's a Biden problem, and it's one that he needs to fix or non-MAGA is going to vote for Trump over him.

Can you please back this up with a reliable source and the sources you cite? Otherwise, this is nothing but conjecture.

MSNBC, ABC7, or AP, NPR, or Rolling Stone are acceptable.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I never really know what to make of all the statistics except they seem to mean whatever you want them to mean.
https://www.google.com/search?q=biden+a … mp;dpr=1.5

Polls at this stage aren't really meaningful or useful. In fact, given how off the polls were in 2026 and 2020, I don't know if they're ever meaningful or useful anymore.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Can you please back this up with a reliable source and the sources you cite? Otherwise, this is nothing but conjecture.

MSNBC, ABC7, or AP, NPR, or Rolling Stone are acceptable.

Well, Biden has been underwater for a long time for his approval rating:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/bi … al-rating/

You can cherry pick whatever poll you want for over a year and it'll be underwater.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trouble … =103436611

This is the poll that had everyone in a tizzy.  Everyone thinks it's an outlier poll, but it's from a reputable source and they chose to release it.  But even if you throw the poll out, you have to look at some of the results and pull some results out of it.  The poll had 42% of people choosing Biden over Trump, but only 37% of the people approve of his performance.  That means that even Biden voters are disapproving of his performance.  It gets worse when you see that only 26% of people don't think he's too old (so 16% of people think he's too old but still would vote for him) and 23% of people approve of his handling of the border (19% of people that chose him over Trump still disapprove of his handling of the border).

So even if the poll is bad, there's info you can pull out from the people that chose Biden.  And they're saying that they'll vote for Biden but don't necessarily approve of him or his performance.

Now Biden has a ton going for him.

1. He already beat Trump
2. Trump's legal troubles might cement him with his base, but they can only lose him voters in the middle.  I can't imagine even an acquittal doing anything positive for him with independents
3. Biden's actually accomplished quite a bit in his term.  Democrats just need to be made aware of the progress because non-political-junkies aren't going to have heard of any of it.  That's going to obviously depend on how much info Democrats can get out during the election cycle.

But one place Biden can grow quickly is the border, and I'm sure there are tons of things that he can do to gain support from moderate republicans (believe it or not, they exist) and independents.  Not only would it bolster support with those groups, but it would take away Republican talking points.  Because MAGA is just a third of the Republican party.  There are plenty of Republicans that aren't die-hard Trump voters, and you don't need them to vote for Biden.  You just need them to vote 3rd party or not vote at all.

And you do that by convincing them that a second Biden term wouldn't be so bad.  The economy is already improving and should be much better by next year unless something bad happens.  Educating voters on Biden's accomplishments will help there too.  But they also need to attack on Biden's weaknesses.  His age they can't do anything about, but the border is something they can really work on.  Since Harris is already in charge of the border, they could probably kill two birds with one stone.  Harris could spend the next year at the border, "acting tough" or whatever and it would make a difference.  Both in improving Biden's favorability regarding the border and in improving Harris' own ratings

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/po … la-harris/

Because if people liked Harris more, they'd worry about Biden's age less.

2,153 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-10-03 04:14:44)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Why do we have to make concessions on a problem that doesn't exist and is fueled entirely by rethuglican lies, hatred, and bigotry against races other than white people?

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

And to make one thing clear: Trumpers make up 23% or less of the entire rethuglican electorate. Don't forget that.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's also a darn good thing that polls don't decide elections. Voters do.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Why do we have to make concessions on a problem that doesn't exist and is fueled entirely by rethuglican lies, hatred, and bigotry against races other than white people?

I mean do you want to end Trumpism and win in 2024?  To end that, you need a definitive win.  You can't win by minimal numbers in several states.  There needs to be an overwhelming statement from the country that we're not going to vote for a criminal to be president.  There needs to be an overwhelming statement that Americans don't want this and that republicans don't want this.  If you get that, the tide turns.  GOP people like Cruz and McCarthy are spineless and will only support Trump if it suits them.  If Trump gets steamrolled then they'll abandon him.

If it's close (or if Trump wins), then it won't stop.  You'll have President Don Jr. 

So am I willing to make concessions to stop that?  Yes.  Especially when Biden is struggling with support on the border isssue *with Democrats*.

With Biden's age, he's going to have plenty of skepticism going into next year.  Why not eliminate one of his biggest weaknesses?  Especially when it would be so easy with almost no negatives.

2,157 Reply by QuinnSlidr (edited by QuinnSlidr 2023-10-03 14:18:34)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
QuinnSlidr wrote:

Why do we have to make concessions on a problem that doesn't exist and is fueled entirely by rethuglican lies, hatred, and bigotry against races other than white people?

I mean do you want to end Trumpism and win in 2024?  To end that, you need a definitive win.  You can't win by minimal numbers in several states.  There needs to be an overwhelming statement from the country that we're not going to vote for a criminal to be president.  There needs to be an overwhelming statement that Americans don't want this and that republicans don't want this.  If you get that, the tide turns.  GOP people like Cruz and McCarthy are spineless and will only support Trump if it suits them.  If Trump gets steamrolled then they'll abandon him.

If it's close (or if Trump wins), then it won't stop.  You'll have President Don Jr. 

So am I willing to make concessions to stop that?  Yes.  Especially when Biden is struggling with support on the border isssue *with Democrats*.

With Biden's age, he's going to have plenty of skepticism going into next year.  Why not eliminate one of his biggest weaknesses?  Especially when it would be so easy with almost no negatives.

So you're saying ageism is fine, and racism is okay, so we should acknowledge their behavior as right by making these concessions?

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't like it, but fairly or unfairly, our political system (US and Canada) will often require that we accept losing battles to people whose values are antithetical to our own. We should never like it or be proud of it, but the unfortunate and painful reality is that politicians with values of justice and equality are going to need votes from people they and we may find abhorrent. I don't like saying that or admitting it, but sometimes, we have to stick to our values and sometimes, we have to concede a moral defeat for a numerical victory. At least in the twisted and awful game that is consensus politics in North America. As a voter, I find myself voting against parties rather than for parties.

But maybe QuinnSlidr will talk me out of this mode of thinking and explain to me why I am Wrong.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Joe Biden is letting Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman go without consequences for murdering a Washington Post journalist. The US is too dependent on Saudi Arabia as a trading partner and oil producer and economic power to cut ties or enact any repercussions.

https://vox.com/world-politics/2023/10/ … ears-later

Fairly or unfairly, it would seem that consensus politics are simply not where we will see right and wrong handled as right and wrong. Instead, it's a matter of political and economic allegiances and a fear of crashing an oil-dependent US economy.

Sometimes, as a voter, there are no good options. If I were in a position to vote in the next US election, I would be voting against Trump by voting for Biden, but examples like this one are why Biden hardly epitomizes my values and why I don't feel good about it and why I don't believe that we should present Biden as a saint even though we all know Trump is a demonic hellspawn from the dawn of time. (Some people worship the hellspawn.)

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I don't like it, but fairly or unfairly, our political system (US and Canada) will often require that we accept losing battles to people whose values are antithetical to our own. We should never like it or be proud of it, but the unfortunate and painful reality is that politicians with values of justice and equality are going to need votes from people they and we may find abhorrent. I don't like saying that or admitting it, but sometimes, we have to stick to our values and sometimes, we have to concede a moral defeat for a numerical victory. At least in the twisted and awful game that is consensus politics in North America. As a voter, I find myself voting against parties rather than for parties.

But maybe QuinnSlidr will talk me out of this mode of thinking and explain to me why I am Wrong.

I'm not here to tell you what's right or wrong. Just my philosophy. You can choose to agree or disagree.

For me, I'm a one-issue voter this term: Democracy vs. Fascism. Once we save the nation from going down the path of Germany in 1943 with the rethuglicans, we can discuss concessions.

The reason why is because of the shift in voter demographics in 2024. Rethuglicans are dreading this shift, because this means that next year, far more people will be progressive voters, and they will never hold a majority ever again.

So they are trying to do everything they can, while they can now to ensure their ideals are passed in any way shape and form they choose.

That is why we can't let fascism take hold.