2,461 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-02-19 06:21:19)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I guess my "bubble" is limiting the anti-Biden rhetoric too much and thus makes me worthless. Who would have thought? I'll stay in my "bubble," thanks.

wink wink wink wink wink wink

Here are a few facts:


President Biden ranked 14th best president of all time in new survey:

https://x.com/ChrisDJackson/status/1759 … 35243?s=20


https://i.postimg.cc/YqbqgPTR/Screenshot-at-Feb-19-03-19-57.png


Trump ranked in last place in the survey, being ranked even worse than James Buchanan:

https://x.com/Angry_Staffer/status/1759 … 83336?s=20

https://i.postimg.cc/TPx76k38/Screenshot-at-Feb-19-03-21-56.png



Trump was ranked even worse than a POTUS who served for only 31 days before he died (William Henry Harrison):

https://x.com/Angry_Staffer/status/1759 … 92644?s=20

https://i.postimg.cc/hG4YmyWL/Screenshot-at-Feb-19-03-22-26.png

An outstanding first term from our amazing President Biden. Ranked the #14th President in all of history. And soon to achieve term #2.

big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile big_smile

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

By the way, this is being reported by FOX (Faux) News. When FOX News starts deriding Trump (Hitler), you know it's bad for him:

New presidential rankings place Obama in top 10, Reagan and Trump below Biden

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-presiden … elow-biden

A new ranking of presidents by a group of self-styled experts determined that Abraham Lincoln is America's greatest president, while Donald Trump ranks last.

Lincoln topped the list of presidents in the 2024 Presidential Greatness Project expert survey for the third time, following his top spot in the rankings in the 2015 and 2018 versions of the survey.

According to a release from the Presidential Greatness Project, which touts itself as the "foremost organization of social science experts in presidential politics," the 154 respondents to the survey included "current and recent members of the Presidents & Executive Politics Section of the American Political Science Association…as well as scholars who have recently published peer-reviewed academic research in key related scholarly journals or academic presses."

The respondents were asked to rank presidents on a scale of 0-100, with 0 being a failure, 50 being average and 100 being great. Rounding out the top five in the rankings were Franklin Delano Roosevelt at number two, George Washington at three, Theodore Roosevelt at four, and Thomas Jefferson at five.

Trump was ranked in last place in the survey, being ranked worse than James Buchanan at 44, Andrew Johnson at 43, Franklin Peirce at 42, and William Henry Harrison at 41.

Respondents were also tracked by their political affiliation and ideology, which the release argues did not "tend to make a major difference overall" in the rankings, though there were some outliers, mainly with recent presidents.

Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush and Trump were more likely to be ranked higher by conservatives or Republicans, with Reagan being ranked an average of 5th by Republicans respondents, Bush 19th and Trump 41st. Among Democrat respondents, Reagan was rated an average of 18th, Bush 33rd and Trump 45th.

A similar partisan divide was noticeable for Barack Obama and President Biden, who ranked an average of 6th and 13th, respectively, among Democrat respondents, and 15th and 30th by Republicans. Bill Clinton, a Democrat, was ranked higher by Republican respondents (10th) than he was by Democrats (12th).

The divide resulted in an overall ranking of 7th for Obama, 12th for Clinton, 14th for Biden, 16th for Reagan and 32nd for Bush.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

I guess my "bubble" is limiting the anti-Biden rhetoric too much and thus makes me worthless. Who would have thought? I'll stay in my "bubble," thanks

Again, I think what's happening here is that Grizzlor is talking about people that are not tuned into politics but will still be immensely important in November.  I've been watching the morning news that my wife has on (local NBC and the Today Show) and they're still covering this race like it's normal.  The only person who's talking about Trump's lunacy is Nikki Haley.  Whenever they show Trump talking, they find clips where he's talking normally and about something that sounds like a political stump speech.

That's why Nikki Haley is our friend, even if she's not who we want to be president.  She might be the only voice that reaches the *vast* majority of people who aren't plugged into everything.  I'm not sure we can count on the mainstream media to cover Trump like they *need* to be covering him.  As someone with a degree in journalism, that's disheartening.

I think we do need to be trying to look at this lens through someone who isn't plugged in to all of this.  Because those are the people who will decide the election.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

**

Grizzlor said something political in the AI thread with which i wholeheartedly and totally agree:

Grizzlor wrote:

Amazon should have been broken up and banned years ago.

What could a president and the House and the Senate do to break up and ban Amazon?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Happy Unindicted President's Day!!!!

I know who I'm voting for!! The unindicted one!! wink


https://i.postimg.cc/7hYvxTpq/Screenshot-at-Feb-19-17-24-17.png

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

This YouTuber, Farron Cousins, has explained why Trump's chances of winning are doomed, but noted that Haley has the numbers to beat Biden.

It sounds like Democratic fan fiction to me, but this video helps me sleep at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr98dRjx-NM&t=28s

2,467 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-02-20 02:54:17)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

This YouTuber, Farron Cousins, has explained why Trump's chances of winning are doomed, but noted that Haley has the numbers to beat Biden.

It sounds like Democratic fan fiction to me, but this video helps me sleep at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr98dRjx-NM&t=28s

Make no mistake. Nikki Haley is just as bad as Trump. Even if Trump loses, and Nikki wins, you're basically getting the female version of Trump.

She lies, and lies, and lies, and cannot be trusted. And will say anything to manipulate. She will fulfill the rethuglican party's christo fascist regime goals of taking the country back to the 1950s (some want the country taken back to the late 1800s).

Don't trust her.

A Haley win would spell death for democracy and the last free election in the United States. Exactly the same as a Trump win.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

A Haley win would spell death for democracy and the last free election in the United States. Exactly the same as a Trump win.

I think this is the kind of mindset we need to stay away from.  Trump is bad in a different way than Haley is bad.  They're both bad, but one is generationally bad.  One is just bad.

Liz Cheney (who is also bad but a different kind of bad) said that true conservatives should vote for Biden because W"e Can Survive Bad Policies But Not ‘Torching the Constitution’" (https://www.mediaite.com/news/liz-chene … stitution/).  I think we need to have the same mindset, or tribalism is going to destroy us.  Everyone can't be Trump.  We can't see boogeymen in every person we disagree with.

If Trump wins, we know he's compromised to foreign powers.  He's said he wants to be a dictator.  He's shown admiration towards authoritarian leaders.  We know what he wants to do and the threat he presents.

Haley has never said any of these things.  She's spoken out against the way Trump treats Putin.  She's supported Ukraine.  She's spoken out against Trumpism and the cult of MAGA.

She'd be bad on a lot of social issues.  She'd probably be bad on the border.  But she's never shown any anti-democracy tendencies as far as I'm aware.  And if we say everyone is Trump and everyone is as bad as Trump, then we hurt our argument that Trump is a unique villain that must be defeated.  We can't use the same type of hyperbole that Trump uses to rile people up.  We need to be truthful and honest.

(If Haley has ever shown anti-democratic tendencies or spoken about wanting to be a dictator, I'm happy to be shown that).

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

This YouTuber, Farron Cousins, has explained why Trump's chances of winning are doomed, but noted that Haley has the numbers to beat Biden.

It sounds like Democratic fan fiction to me, but this video helps me sleep at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr98dRjx-NM&t=28s

Okay I watched this video.  I think he's right, but the assumption is based on the idea that 1) we'll get a Trump trial and b) Trump will be convicted.  I think he's right that if Trump is convicted, he'll shed enough independent voters (and probably a decent amount of republicans) that Biden should be in good shape.  I also think that the more people hear Trump talk, the more people will remember why they didn't like him in the first place.  It's probably been 3+ years since most people have heard him speak.

I do think Farron cherry picked the good poll that Biden got on that particular day, but the rest of his thesis is solid.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
QuinnSlidr wrote:

A Haley win would spell death for democracy and the last free election in the United States. Exactly the same as a Trump win.

I think this is the kind of mindset we need to stay away from.  Trump is bad in a different way than Haley is bad.  They're both bad, but one is generationally bad.  One is just bad.

Liz Cheney (who is also bad but a different kind of bad) said that true conservatives should vote for Biden because W"e Can Survive Bad Policies But Not ‘Torching the Constitution’" (https://www.mediaite.com/news/liz-chene … stitution/).  I think we need to have the same mindset, or tribalism is going to destroy us.  Everyone can't be Trump.  We can't see boogeymen in every person we disagree with.

If Trump wins, we know he's compromised to foreign powers.  He's said he wants to be a dictator.  He's shown admiration towards authoritarian leaders.  We know what he wants to do and the threat he presents.

Haley has never said any of these things.  She's spoken out against the way Trump treats Putin.  She's supported Ukraine.  She's spoken out against Trumpism and the cult of MAGA.

She'd be bad on a lot of social issues.  She'd probably be bad on the border.  But she's never shown any anti-democracy tendencies as far as I'm aware.  And if we say everyone is Trump and everyone is as bad as Trump, then we hurt our argument that Trump is a unique villain that must be defeated.  We can't use the same type of hyperbole that Trump uses to rile people up.  We need to be truthful and honest.

(If Haley has ever shown anti-democratic tendencies or spoken about wanting to be a dictator, I'm happy to be shown that).

Sure. Here you go. I think it's a mistake to think a softer voice is somehow better. It's not. Just a wolf in sheep's clothing.

https://www.salon.com/2023/02/15/despit … e_partner/

Despite attempts to distance from Trump, critics say “make no mistake: Nikki Haley is no moderate”

"The same politics of lies and division that Trump used, just in a softer voice," says Rev. Dr. William Barber II

==================================


Following former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley's launch of her 2024 presidential campaign Tuesday, progressives cautioned that while the Republican has spent years cultivating a so-called "moderate" public persona, her policy positions make it abundantly clear that as president, she would promote a right-wing agenda similar to the Trump administration, in which she served for nearly two years.

Haley, who also served as South Carolina's governor before joining the administration of former President Donald Trump in 2017, has advanced right-wing policies both domestically and abroad, and since leaving public office four years ago, has used her platform to promote "extreme hardline positions on foreign policy," wrote Daniel Larison at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft.

The Republican has strived to center her response to the 2015 Mother Emanuel AME Church shooting in Charleston by a white supremacist as evidence of her moderation, including in her campaign launch video footage of the speech she gave weeks after the massacre when signing a bill to remove the Confederate flag from the grounds of the state capitol.

Progressive strategist Sawyer Hackett noted, however, that moments earlier in the video she denied that the deep history of institutional racism has contributed to persistent inequality in the United States.

"Make no mistake: Nikki Haley is no moderate," said Christina Harvey, executive director of progressive advocacy group Stand Up America. "From her support of Trump's policy of putting children in cages and the regressive reproductive health policies she pushed as governor of South Carolina to her opposition to federal voting rights legislation and her unwavering support of Donald Trump—even after he incited the January 6 insurrection—Nikki Haley has shown her true colors."

During her six years as governor of South Carolina, Haley signed anti-reproductive rights bills including one that banned abortion care after 19 weeks of pregnancy, with no exceptions for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.

With anti-abortion rights Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis expected to also announce a run for the GOP presidential nomination, NARAL Pro-Choice America president Mini Timmaraju said the primary is already becoming "a race to the bottom."

"Whether it's serving in Donald Trump's Cabinet or signing an extreme abortion ban into law, Nikki Haley's record is chock full of red flags," said Timmaraju. "Haley's views on abortion are just as extreme as others gunning for the Republican nomination, and we look forward to working alongside our members to defeat the Republican nominee, whoever it may be."

Haley's campaign launch ad also included a claim that President Joe Biden is promoting a "socialist" agenda, which Poor People's Campaign co-chair Rev. Dr. William Barber II interpreted as an attack on those who "believe in living wages, voting rights, and healthcare for all."

During Haley's two years as U.N. ambassador under the Trump administration, she was a strong proponent of the president's so-called "zero tolerance" policy under which thousands of migrant children were separated from their parents and guardians, Trump's push to pull out of the U.N. Human Rights Council, and the administration's decision to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal.

Though she briefly criticized Trump for inciting the mob that attacked the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 in an effort to stop the certification of the 2020 presidential election results, Haley soon after defended the former president and called on Democratic lawmakers to "give the man a break" as they impeached Trump for a second time.

"When we needed leaders to stand up for our democracy and our freedoms, Haley fell in line with Donald Trump, again and again," said Harvey. "That's exactly the opposite of what our country needs. Unfortunately, it doesn't make her unique. Whether the Republican nominee is Nikki Haley, Donald Trump, or someone else, there will likely be a MAGA Republican with a track record of undermining our democracy on the GOP ticket come November 2024."

At the Quincy Institute, Larison wrote that Haley's effort to cast herself as a moderating voice in the Republican Party while also defending the former president has left her "with no obvious base of support" and has likely rendered her a long-shot candidate.

"There is so little daylight between Haley's own positions and those of Trump that it will be difficult for her to criticize anything he did as president," Larison wrote. "Haley's foreign policy record is bound up with Trump's to such an extent that she will struggle to distinguish herself from him."

Barber called on voters to focus on "the main message: None of the Republicans planning on running disagree with Trump on policy."

2,471 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-20 14:01:13)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay, but again, we can survive on bad policies.  If Trump just had bad policies, there's less to fear about him.  We've survived bad policies.  We've had a number of bad presidents that had bad policies, and we've survived four years with them.  We survived eight years of George W Bush who had some bad policies, but George W Bush did what he thought was best for the country and its people.

And we survived four years of Trump and his bad policies.  He ran for re-election, lost, and he tried to throw out our system of government, and he failed.

Bad policies I don't worry about.  What I worry about is anti-democratic promises.  This guy wants to shred the constitution, and that makes him uniquely dangerous.  Nikki Haley might have terrible policies, but she would do so in service of the Constitution and the American people.  Donald Trump does everything for himself.  We could survive four years or even eight years of Haley.  There might be some damage she leaves behind, but it wouldn't be anything that couldn't be undone or fixed.

Trump?  I don't know how long we survive under Trump.  And I don't know if the damage he leaves is repairable.  The damage he's already left might not be repairable for a while.

But we can't paint them with the same brush, or it weakens the entire argument.  I think there are a handful of GOP that I'm truly worried about if they get into power.  It's Trump, it's Kari Lake, its Ron Paul, and a few others that are absolutely insane.  If we just say everyone is Trump, then we're lying to ourselves.  There's one true threat to America right now.  And every enemy of our enemy is our friend.

(THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OPINION AND NOT THE OPINION OF SLIDERS.TV)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Okay, but again, we can survive on bad policies.  If Trump just had bad policies, there's less to fear about him.  We've survived bad policies.  We've had a number of bad presidents that had bad policies, and we've survived four years with them.  We survived eight years of George W Bush who had some bad policies, but George W Bush did what he thought was best for the country and its people.

And we survived four years of Trump and his bad policies.  He ran for re-election, lost, and he tried to throw out our system of government, and he failed.

Bad policies I don't worry about.  What I worry about is anti-democratic promises.  This guy wants to shred the constitution, and that makes him uniquely dangerous.  Nikki Haley might have terrible policies, but she would do so in service of the Constitution and the American people.  Donald Trump does everything for himself.  We could survive four years or even eight years of Haley.  There might be some damage she leaves behind, but it wouldn't be anything that couldn't be undone or fixed.

Trump?  I don't know how long we survive under Trump.  And I don't know if the damage he leaves is repairable.  The damage he's already left might not be repairable for a while.

But we can't paint them with the same brush, or it weakens the entire argument.  I think there are a handful of GOP that I'm truly worried about if they get into power.  It's Trump, it's Kari Lake, its Ron Paul, and a few others that are absolutely insane.  If we just say everyone is Trump, then we're lying to ourselves.  There's one true threat to America right now.  And every enemy of our enemy is our friend.

(THE ABOVE IS JUST MY OPINION AND NOT THE OPINION OF SLIDERS.TV)

You do realize that I just posted all the evidence anyone should need that Nikki Haley is going to do that same thing, right?

1. Anti-reproductive rights bills that she signed - a.k.a. anti-democratic.
2. Anti-keeping migrant children with their parents - a.k.a. anti-democratic.
3. Anti-Trump impeachment - a.k.a. anti-democractic.

And more.

2,473 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-20 16:35:30)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay, you're making fairly big leaps here. If you see them as the same, that's fine.  I just think that line of thinking is dangerous, both from a polarization perspective and from a messaging perspective.  If Haley is as bad as Trump and DeSantis is as bad as Trump and all Republicans are as bad as Trump, then:

1. We're going to de-sensitize people to how bad Trump is.  It's the boy who cried wolf.
2. We're going to look as bad as Trump is.  Trump and MAGA paint Joe Manchin and AOC in the same light.  Heck, they paint Mitt Romney and AOC in the same light, when they're not the same at all.

As far as I know, there's no evidence that Haley would ever suspend or eliminate elections.  There's no evidence that she would fail to concede if she didn't win.  There's no evidence that she would support an insurrection or the overturning of the Constitution.  There's no evidence that she would be a dictator, even for one day.

The three things you listed are policy differences, but they do not destroy America.  We kept kids in cages and it was horrible, but here we are.  Those programs were reversed, we have Biden in the White House and the border policy is better.  Haley could re-institute those policies, and they'd just be reversed in 2028 or 2032.  The nation would survive.  I mean she could go way further than that, and the nation would survive.

What Trump wants to do is totally different, and I cannot tell you how important it is to clarify that it's totally different.  Trump could absolutely try to suspend elections or refuse to leave when his term is over or start World War III for no reason.  A second Trump presidency is dangerous to us as individuals, to ireactions outside of the nation, and for the nation itself.

Nikki Haley would be a bad president.

Those are two very different statements.  And we have to remember that when Biden wins in 2024, we're still going to need to work with, live alongside, and compromise with people that voted for Trump.  A republican saved the ACA.  Republicans voted against impeaching Mayorkas.  Republicans were willing to work with Democrats to provide aid to Ukraine and a bi-partisan border plan.  We can't say all of them are Trump and declare anything we don't like as anti-democratic.

Again, just my opinion.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I too, cannot stress enough in the name of Wade's Season 3 hair dye and Quinn's Season 3 highlights that the views of ireactions are not the consensus views of Sliders.TV.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr98dRjx-NM&t=28s

Okay I watched this video.  I think he's right, but the assumption is based on the idea that 1) we'll get a Trump trial and b) Trump will be convicted.  I think he's right that if Trump is convicted, he'll shed enough independent voters (and probably a decent amount of republicans) that Biden should be in good shape.  I also think that the more people hear Trump talk, the more people will remember why they didn't like him in the first place.  It's probably been 3+ years since most people have heard him speak.

I do think Farron cherry picked the good poll that Biden got on that particular day, but the rest of his thesis is solid.

Yes, it did strike me as Democratic fan fiction/wishful thinking over a more nuanced reality.

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Make no mistake. Nikki Haley is just as bad as Trump. Even if Trump loses, and Nikki wins, you're basically getting the female version of Trump.

I'm going to politely disagree with the view that Haley is as bad as Trump. Nikki Haley is not the national security risk that is posed by one Donald John Trump.

Trump is in serious financial trouble. Trump owes over 400 million in financial penalties for fraud and libel; that adds up to over $1.7 billion in loans and financial penalties. While estimated to be worth 2.6 billion on paper, Trump has claimed to have $400 million in actual funds; the real number is therefore significantly lower.

His former lawyer, Michael Cohen, does not think Trump can afford to pay his $453 million in legal fines which increase with $87,000 in daily interest until Trump pays it. And to appeal, Trump has to pay the money to be held in a escrow account while he appeals the judgements. If he doesn't pay it, the court will seize his assets and sell them.

Trump will likely have to provide his assets as collateral or sell them just to appeal as few if any lenders will touch him now. Even if he somehow sells off enough real estate to pay his fines, the ongoing rental income will stop. He is barred from doing business in New York City for three years.

With his businesses crippled by the New York judgement and with few lenders being willing to go near him, Trump's $1.3 billion in business and personal debt will become unmanageable. Trump will be desperate for money.

As a re-elected president, Trump's debt would make him a national security risk. Any and every hostile power willing to pay his debts would be able to control his office, dictate his policies and acquire state secrets. Trump's debts would make him servile and compliant.

QuinnSlidr and I have basically the same politics, and Nikki Haley offends and outrages me. But Nikki Haley isn't $1.7 billion in debt. Nikki Haley isn't a delinquent debtor whom hostile powers and rogue nations can easily control by tossing her a line of credit.

Trump is now for sale to anyone who will settle what he owes. And he will take any buyer.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

To be extremely, overly clear...I'm not supporting Nikki Haley in any way.  Right now, she is extremely useful to anti-Trump people because she's the only one slamming Trump.  The Republican primary, mathematically, is over.  But Haley declared yesterday that she's staying in the race even if she's crushed in her home state as she's predicted to do.

Yesterday, she had a fairly smart move.  She leaked that she was ending her campaign, and she got Fox News to carry her entire speech.  And as she's done recently, she hammered Trump.  The harder she is on Trump, the harder Trump will be on her, and there's a chance that Haley voters refuse to vote for Trump.  Fox News voters are hearing a Republican hammer Trump, and I cannot tell you how important that is.  MAGA won't believe her and will call her a RINO or whatever, but if Haley can scrape off a few thousands potential Trump voters in the right places, Biden wins.

Remember, Trump won in 2016 in part because the Bernie/Hillary process was so contentious that Bernie voters refused to vote for her.  That could easily be why Biden wins.

But that doesn't mean that I would support Haley in any way.  She has gone back and forth.  She is saying that she'll pardon Trump.  But right now she's saying the truth and she's hurting Trump.  And if she can convince enough people that Trump isn't the guy and get them to vote 3rd party or something, then Biden will win.  For that, she's firmly in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" territory.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions, Slider_Quinn21 - You both have extremely interesting analyses to ponder. I agree that crying wolf and lumping everyone into the Trump category can be dangerous.

Just so long as we're not using everything as an excuse to follow the old "lesser of two evils" argument, which I want to make sure we are not doing.

I need to think about this more in depth but so far, I believe both of you are on point.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Just so long as we're not using everything as an excuse to follow the old "lesser of two evils" argument, which I want to make sure we are not doing.

To me, if Trump dropped out and Haley was the nominee, I would be able to sleep at night.  I would then wake up and do whatever I needed to do (including volunteering my time and donating my money) to make sure Democrats won up and down the ballot.  I don't think defeating MAGA and defeating Trump is the end of the fight.  Until we get to a place where one side isn't actively trying to be horrible, we're in trouble.  And Haley is on the side being horrible.

But I could sleep at night.  Right now, we are too close to Trump winning again for me to be truly comfortable.

I just early voted.  Texas has some really out there propositions to vote on...

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Thank you for voting, Slider_Quinn21.

I agree with QuinnSlidr that we must never minimize the evil that Nikki Haley represents. Since 2020, I've taken the view that voting is not about choosing your standard bearer. It is about choosing your opponent.

There is a Hong Kong movie called THE LUCKY GUY (in Chinese, it's called EGG TART PRINCE) where an egg tart deliveryman runs afoul of a martial arts studio and its students who challenge him to single combat and tell him to choose his opponent. The deliveryman, a grown man, tries to choose to fight the smallest little boy in the class. It doesn't go well our egg tart man.

I have now lost track of what my point was.

2,479 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-22 14:12:57)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

I agree with QuinnSlidr that we must never minimize the evil that Nikki Haley represents. Since 2020, I've taken the view that voting is not about choosing your standard bearer. It is about choosing your opponent.

In every election, there are people who want something done, and the way they want to do it might be the wrong way.  You can look at basically any issue, and there are two solutions.  You can lower taxes to help low-income families keep more of the income that they earn, but then you can't afford programs that also help low-income families.  You can restrict illegal immigration, but you might miss out on helping people who genuinely need to escape from a dangerous situation.  You can eliminate social security and the taxes that it causes, but you could hurt people who depend on social security to survive.

The people that want these things and make these decisions typically aren't trying to hurt people or cause issues.  For whatever the reason, they land on one side of the fence instead of the other.  And in most elections, a huge swath of the electorate agrees.  So maybe you lower taxes for people and down the road, the food stamps program that people used to use gets shut down, and people decide that lower taxes may not be better.  Then they change their votes, and the world keeps on spinning.

I know bad policies hurt people, but it's how our democracy works.  If enough people want to enact bad policies, that's what we do.  I can live with that.  America has had a lot of bad policies, but we've worked our way to better places. 

Nothing good comes from electing Trump.  There's no attempt to do the right thing.  There's no attempt to make things better.  Every single thing he does he does for himself.  He is a unique, singular threat.

MAGAism is also bad because they have no platform.  They don't know what they want so they cannot accomplish anything.  But we've seen that's already working itself out.  Republicans are getting tired of MAGA's inability to do anything.  They cannot govern.  If we beat Trump, MAGA will collapse.

But we have to beat Trump.

2,480

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump is seriously effed by the recent financial judgements against.  I imagine AG James will be seizing assets in the near future.  Once the court in NY completes it's official filing, which keeps being put off, because the independent observer continues to find Trump Org corruption, the clock will start ticking.  He has 30 days to file an appeal.  He won't ever pay, so there will be a protracted legal fight over those assets. 

More troubling for Don, and even worse for GOP, are the RNC's finances.  RNC and Trump PAC's are barely raising any money, and the January reports are horrendous.  His PACs are diverting every last dollar to his legal bills.  The perceived power play that seeks to replace Ronna McDaniel with Lara Trump, is specifically to directly move RNC funds to Trump's lawyers!  This not only shows how awful his campaign is going to be financed, but it's a further disaster for Republicans nationwide. 

As for Nikki, like SQ21, not a fan overall, but the biggest HA HA remains that she would likely beat Biden, and yet MAGA is too cultish and stupid to get that through their heads.  Would her policies stink?  Of course, but as I've said in the past, I can SLEEP AT NIGHT with a President Haley.  First of all, she is vehemently anti-Putin and pro-Ukraine.  Her husband is an active duty commander, as well.  Haley's plans seem to be to stay in the race all the way, and why not?  She's being backed by both GOP sources, Never Trumpers, and even Democrats, all desperate to weaken Trump.  Nikki will gain some delegates, and should Trump be a raging disaster by summer, maybe she can be in position at the convention....

It was just reported, as I'm sure many knew, that the Impeachment of Biden based on the Hunter trash, was led by a now twice arrested, Russian agent, who the FBI has announced lied to them about everything.  Will Mike Johnson continue to embarrass his party by proceeding?  Fools!!!

Today in fact, it was also reported that a MAGICIAN admitted to created the fake Biden robocalls in New Hampshire.  Who he says paid him?  An operative for the dufus Dean Phillips, one of two Democratic primary opponents.  Dean Phillips was already a joke, and this seals it. 

Recently, Rajin' Cajun James Carville put out a video whereby he says the time for questioning Joe Biden as the nominee is over, and Democrats should be fighting for him, instead of afraid of him.  I think a big part of that was a series of polls released recently that show that several perceived "replacments" from Kamala Harris to Gavin Newsome to whoever currently poll worse or the same as Biden.  While much of that is due to their NOT being the nominee, I mostly agree with him.  However, I remain on pins and needles that Biden, who maintains a robust schedule far from a golf course, can have the vigor for the actual campaign to come in the late summer and fall.

Lastly, I saw a podcast on Meidas Touch with long time Dem strategist Simon Roseberg, who remains unwavering in his belief that Biden will not only win, but win BIG.  Besides the President's achievements, Simon's primary evidence are election results, particularly from 2022 forward.  It's true, Democrats continue to outperform skeptics, and the Dobbs decision has been a big reason.  This Alabama IVF insane ruling only further damages Republicans.  The podcast was boring but I would invite a read of his blog.  Simon is not some rah rah homer, he's been very good at predicting and whatnot.

https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/trum … winning-no

Now about those polls?  Recently the Detroit Free Press released one that found that a clear majority in Michigan believe Trump is GUILTY of felony in just the Jan 6th case, which is yet to begin.  And yet, he's safely ahead of Biden in the same poll?  This makes little to no sense.  Rosenberg believes that Biden is sagging partially because Democrats have no true primary, and that at some point, the "coalition" will again reveal itself.  I HOPE SO!

One thing is for sure, polling is broken, badly.  I also saw a recent interview with Larry Sabato, LONG time pollster.  Larry said you can't count on any of it.  Used to rely on polling averages, but there's so many trash Republican fed polls in those, and the websites won't exclude them.  Simon mentions this also.  Furthermore, who are the samples taken from?  A lot come from land lines, a technology far more popular with older folks, who in turn are more likely to favor Trump.  Attempting to source cell phones and other online methods are haphazard and costly.  What I would agree with is that Trump seems to definitely have a ceiling around 46-48% nationally and in several states.  Even in the "friendly" polls to him.  Biden trails by a few, but you have often 10+ point undecided, which is quite a lot.  Obviously the hope is, as it happened in NY-3 special, that most of those go against Trump/for Biden.  The presence of a third party spoiler is now my greatest fear moving forward.

2,481 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-23 16:43:44)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

He won't ever pay, so there will be a protracted legal fight over those assets.

Well, he has to hold the cash in escrow.  Even if he has the money he thinks he does, he might need to sell assets to just to maintain the cash he needs.  He's not really giving the money up, but he doesn't have access to it.

I also saw that Nikki Haley outearned Trump.  Her only hope is that Trump drops out, but if she can keep earning, she can stay in the race.  Which is good if you're anti-Trump.

Biden seems to be underperforming in polls, which is odd.  The problems with polling recently have been underestimating Trump (he won in 2016 when he was polling to lose, and he lost in 2020 closer than the polls implied).  The thought was that there were "shy Trump voters" that were unwilling to admit to pollsters that they support Trump.  Maybe it's possible that people are saying they support Trump when either a) they won't when push comes to shove or b) they just don't like Biden enough that they're willing to tell pollsters that.

I still think the more people know about Trump, the more support he'll lose.  And once normal people start hearing some of the Trump stuff (once they start caring or once the mainstream media starts covering him more), polls will turn.  I'm not fully ready to abandon all polling, but I'm willing to say that polls are really tricky to get right these days.

**************

I was really hoping the Supreme Court would release what they're going to do on the immunity case today.  Sigh.  Maybe next week.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

He won't ever pay, so there will be a protracted legal fight over those assets.

What a strange remark. If Trump doesn't pay the fines, the state of New York will simply take his assets and sell them.

2,483 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-02-24 13:02:39)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Biden seems to be underperforming in polls, which is odd.  The problems with polling recently have been underestimating Trump (he won in 2016 when he was polling to lose, and he lost in 2020 closer than the polls implied).  The thought was that there were "shy Trump voters" that were unwilling to admit to pollsters that they support Trump.  Maybe it's possible that people are saying they support Trump when either a) they won't when push comes to shove or b) they just don't like Biden enough that they're willing to tell pollsters that.

I still think the more people know about Trump, the more support he'll lose.  And once normal people start hearing some of the Trump stuff (once they start caring or once the mainstream media starts covering him more), polls will turn.  I'm not fully ready to abandon all polling, but I'm willing to say that polls are really tricky to get right these days.

I have a couple theories to explain those thoughts, which I stole.  First, Rosenberg points out that Biden's approval on almost anything with Republicans is like comically bad.  Granted the opposing party is rarely going to give the President high marks, and I don't know what the norm has been, but Biden is in SINGLE digits with R's!!!!  Yes who cares right, they aren't voting for him!  However they probably represent 25-35% of the respondents in these surveys!  When you weigh that in, it drops Biden's approval numbers to record lows.  That's how badly MAGA hate him.  Even Obama was nowhere near this.  Will I sleep better knowing this?  Not really but it does dispel these approval ratings somewhat. 

Second, on the voter polls, as Sabato remarked, they've become almost useless.  The trick is in weighing who are your likely voters and such.  Pollsters get this wrong a lot.  They're also mistaking Trump's diehard ceiling with a soft one for Biden.  Again, I think over 50% of the electorate wishes to vote against Trump.  Will Biden be able to shuffle well enough to continue to be their alternative?  I remain concerned but it's really about Third party spoilers at this point. 

ireactions wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

He won't ever pay, so there will be a protracted legal fight over those assets.

What a strange remark. If Trump doesn't pay the fines, the state of New York will simply take his assets and sell them.

For 99.9% of the population.  Not for a Trump who's plan is always to litigate and delay.  Yes, eventually the AG will likely seize but he'll still try to block it.  Again, he knows he will lose but delaying buys him time to maneuver.  The Judge was alerted again that Trump Org tried to transfer assets to Florida.  I don't know what he has up his sleeve but this is his career, litigation.  I know this sounds counterintuitive but Trump has operated this way for 50 years.  He's beaten numerous bankruptcy courts just like this.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

He won't ever pay, so there will be a protracted legal fight over those assets.

ireactions wrote:

What a strange remark. If Trump doesn't pay the fines, the state of New York will simply take his assets and sell them.

Grizzlor wrote:

For 99.9% of the population.  Not for a Trump who's plan is always to litigate and delay.  Yes, eventually the AG will likely seize but he'll still try to block it.  Again, he knows he will lose but delaying buys him time to maneuver.  The Judge was alerted again that Trump Org tried to transfer assets to Florida.  I don't know what he has up his sleeve but this is his career, litigation.  I know this sounds counterintuitive but Trump has operated this way for 50 years.  He's beaten numerous bankruptcy courts just like this.

Well, this isn't bankruptcy. This is a civil penalty for financial fraud, and there is no blocking asset seizure for this fine except by putting the money in an escrow account or acquiring a bond with a lender in exchange for sufficient collateral.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

We have South Carolina results, and surprise, it's Trump winning.  Duh, you don't get more MAGA than SC.  The story is he once again under-performed badly vs. the polling, by about 7 points each time.  On to Super Tuesday.

https://twitter.com/admcrlsn/status/1761578567345815818

Iowa Caucus:
• Final 538 Avg: Trump +37 (over RDS)
• Final Result: Trump +30

New Hampshire Primary:
• Final 538 Avg: Trump +18
• Final Result: Trump +11

South Carolina Primary:
• Final 538 Avg: Trump +28
• Estimated Result (per NYT): Trump +20

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

And a huge swath of Haley voters say they won't vote for Trump.  If they go third party, stay home, or actually vote for Biden, that's such a killer for Trump.

Of course, if that's happening:

- the polls are wrong
- most/all of the people voting for Haley are actually Democrats who are voting for Biden anyway
- there are "shy Biden voters" that are reporting something different to pollsters than what they're actually intending on doing

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

My guess is that the poll sample sizes are biased towards people who have landlines and answer calls from unknown numbers.

2,488 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-25 19:29:22)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

In 2020, the polls favored Democrats because Democrats (especially around the time of the election) were more likely to be social distancing.  And maybe it was to get social interaction or boredom or whatever, but Democrats were more likely to answer the phone, respond to a poll, etc.  Republicans were more likely to be doing something else.

In 2024, I haven't heard about anything.  People like to say that polls are broken, but polls were incredibly accurate in the midterms in 2018 and 2022.  The problem seems to be isolated to elections with Trump in them.

"Shy Trump voters" seemed to be a thing in 2020.  I wonder if "shy Biden voters" could also be a thing.  Maybe people are just embarrassed to admit they support a historically unpopular president, even if they like him overall.  I cannot imagine, under any circumstances, a Biden voter willingly telling a pollster that they will vote for Trump.  But maybe it's simply the matter of "shy Biden voters" telling a pollster that they're undecided.  Trump seems to have a ceiling of around 45% in most polls.  I guess it's also possible that Haley voters are "shy Biden voters" because they don't want to admit that they'd cross over and vote Biden.

I would love to understand it.  If the polls are truly underrepresenting Biden votes, I wouldn't be nearly as nervous.

I did read that Biden personally asked his campaign to highlight all the "crazy sh*t" that Trump says in advertising.  I think that's really important.  I think a decent chunk of the electorate that is willing to vote for Trump literally has no idea the kinds of things that he says. They're probably just comparing 2018 (things were relatively good for a lot of people) to 2022 (inflation, covid stuff hanging around, etc) and nothing else.  I don't think it would take much for a lot of those people to realize Trump's out of his mind and that things are overally pretty solid in 2024.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The poll taking can be problematic but so can the poll analysis and how the results are weighted.  I guess at this point, hell with them.

Michigan votes Tuesday, that should be interesting as supposedly many up there blame Biden for Gaza being demolished. 

Trump's CPAC speeches may be his most unhinged and plain deteriorated he's ever sounded.  Gaffes constantly not to mention tons of insanity spewed.  Fox News of all things have often been overlaying the hosts fact checking his lunacy in real time.  Meanwhile, MSNBC/CNN don't even cover him.  I think this is a mistake.  People NEED to see how quickly the man is losing it at a mental level.  He will only get worse.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Yeah this morning on the Today Show, they had a couple of super short where Trump told Biden he's going to fire him.  None of the slurring or the gaffes or the mental stumbles.  If the media continues to chop up his speeches to where he sounds normal, it's going to be up to the Biden campaign to spend their massive war chest getting that message out.  At least half of the Biden ads in swing states need to be 100% clips from Trump speeches.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump's legal team made a "notice of appeal" about the $455 million fraud judgement... but they didn't post a bond or provide the money for an escrow account. Unless they secure a bond for the money or transfer it to escrow, the appeal can't go forward.

They're probably having a lot of trouble finding a bond company that would take Trump as a client or a lender that would trust Trump to pay them back or they don't have the collateral needed for a bond or a loan.

2,492 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-02-26 19:28:06)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The collateral would be quite large on the $83 million, but I cannot even fathom for the $455+.  I read that his lawyers are currently trying to get the judge in the Carroll case to lower the bond, and I would suspect they'll "try" likewise on the other case.  Bond companies don't want property, and even less if mortgaged, they want cash/stocks/bonds.  Most all of his property, especially in New York, are highly leveraged because he is an imbusel who fails at business regularly.  I am hearing he could probably need to pay them 3% fee as well as collateral that both would exceed $10 million and $60 million, I think.  These are BIG numbers.  However, Trump could ask the appeals court in both cases to lower the bond requirement, or freeze the penalties entirely.  Somehow I doubt they'll do him any favors. 

I have no idea if he'll ever go to trial on the stolen documents case, but Trump completely admitted it's something he would, could, and should have done on Hannity last night.

https://twitter.com/highbrow_nobrow/sta … 4588687546

2,493 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-27 08:21:13)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

A lot of the Trump cases, Trump isn't even arguing that he's not guilty.  He's just arguing that it isn't a crime.  I don't know if that's going to work with a jury.

One thing I fear about the New York case is that a) some crazy MAGA billionaire is going to front him the money.  Musk has been one of the people floated to maybe do that b) foreign people are going to do it, making him more beholden to them.

And as ireactions said, that's why Haley and Trump aren't the same.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I don't think Elon Musk actually has that kind of money to spend. Yes, Musk owns assets that put his net worth at $200 billion, but that's in shares of his companies (Tesla, SpaceX, Twitter), and he acquires cash by using company shares as collateral to get loans; his shares increase in value which allow him to keep borrowing more money to pay his expenses. I doubt he would put up the shares to acquire a $455 million loan on someone else's behalf; he would only do that for himself.

Trump doesn't seem to have any financial aid from any billionaires right now because his lawyers are trying to get out of posting the $91 million bond for the E. Jean Carroll judgement needed to file an appeal. https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-e … al-1873668

They've offered nonsensical reasons for why Trump shouldn't have to post bond, and if Trump can't pay or secure a bond for $91 million to appeal that case, he probably can't secure the $500 million bond needed to appeal the New York judgement on his businesses either.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I haven't seen any of the returns from Michigan, but I'm hoping any protest voters there are pragmatic.  You can say that Biden needs to pivot to the left on Israel, but you can't argue that Trump would be better for Palestine.  And like it or not, it's Trump or Biden.  A vote for anyone but Biden helps Trump.

Protest away in the primary.  But hopefully they come back when the important vote happens.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

So far the "uncommitted" total is likely to be quite higher than usual in MI.  Idk what to even make of that, especially with Biden getting 5 out of 6 votes.

The last thing a billionaire wants to do is throw away money!  A million or two maybe, but 10 or even 60 million, no shot.  Sheldon Adelson was his last big one, he's dead.  Even the Home Depot guy is now unfriendly to Trump, and had backed Desantis.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Every time I see the name "Desantis", I think, "Is that a typo? Isn't it spelled DeathSantis?" Then I realize what QuinnSlidr has done to me.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Every time I see the name "Desantis", I think, "Is that a typo? Isn't it spelled DeathSantis?" Then I realize what QuinnSlidr has done to me.

lol lol lol

2,499

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Shockingly, Desantimonious (the dumbest moniker yet) is still a state Governor. 

More on the uncommitted, which is as expected, very large in the Arab/Muslim populated areas around Dearborn, and the college towns.  Biden is over 80% total, uncommitted is high but trending below 14%.  Here's the key, these votes are STILL Democratic votes, and if anything, this may have buoyed Democratic turnout in an otherwise mehhh primary for them.  Much better that these voters protested with uncommitted versus Dean Phillips or Marianne Williamson.  I still believe that Biden's biggest weakness in MI is not Gaza, it's General Motors.  The Biden push for electric vehicles is very unpopular among union households, because EV's mean less autoworkers, just the way it is. 

Trump meanwhile trending about 2/3 of the vote, Nikki Haley slipping below 28%.  Tons of votes to be counted, Michigan is beyond slow, despite early voting.  Obviously, once again, it's a lot worse of a look to be missing 1/4-1/3 of your primary electorate to another identifiable different candidate.  Haley of course, got clobbered here again.  She has the money to compete through next Tuesday, but probably will be mathematically eliminated.  She may still keep going anyway, although the money is going to be thin.  Trump again underperforms polling.  Michigan's GOP is also a total disaster, with warring factions of Trumpers battling over the last several years, to the point where today's vote will have almost no affect on delegates.  They will be mostly award in next week's state convention, which is sure to be a real farce.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Trump meanwhile trending about 2/3 of the vote, Nikki Haley slipping below 28%.  Tons of votes to be counted, Michigan is beyond slow, despite early voting.  Obviously, once again, it's a lot worse of a look to be missing 1/4-1/3 of your primary electorate to another identifiable different candidate.  Haley of course, got clobbered here again.  She has the money to compete through next Tuesday, but probably will be mathematically eliminated.  She may still keep going anyway, although the money is going to be thin.  Trump again underperforms polling.  Michigan's GOP is also a total disaster, with warring factions of Trumpers battling over the last several years, to the point where today's vote will have almost no affect on delegates.  They will be mostly award in next week's state convention, which is sure to be a real farce.

Well, the strategy (I think) has to do with the idea that, in the case that Trump is not able to be the nominee (for whatever reason), Haley would have the inside track.  I forget what happens to Republican delegates if Trump is out, but Haley is going to be second, and she's going to have the second-most votes.  It might be worth it for her to stay in the race even if the chance is 1 in a million that Trump drops out.  But he is late 70s, in terrible shape, is under 91 felony indictments, and is widely hated.  There's a lot of ways Trump wouldn't be the nominee that wouldn't normally apply.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

So just some food for thought.

Eileen Cannon is the judge over the documents case.  She's a Trump appointee, and people have all-but accused her of doing Trump's dirty work.  Even before the indictment, she made some baffling decisions that benefited Trump. 

The trial is currently set for May, and almost no one believes that Cannon will stick to it.  She's already said that she's willing to give enough time for the defense to do its work, and if that means delaying the start, so be it.  It's almost impossible to get a judge thrown off a case so it basically is what it is.

Anyway, so Trump requested that some documents be unsealed and provided to him.  It was highly unusual and legal experts said there's no reason for her to allow it.  Still, a lot of people assumed she'd allow it.  She might've even indicated that she would.  But yesterday, she denied it.  Legal experts I follow said it was the right thing to do.

I may have gotten some details wrong - I'm not an attorney - but one thought was mentioned by someone.  This would've been the first time that Judge Cannon finally saw some of the documents that are being discussed.  Is there any chance that she supported Trump and angled for him because she believes in him....and when she finally saw what he was hoarding, she was horrified?  Is there any chance this flipped a switch and she's more willing to take the case to trial?

2,502

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Supreme Court just announced they will hear Trump's bull crap immunity appeal beginning April 22.  Even if they accelerate their time table and have a judgement in a few weeks, that would push the Election DC case back to June or July.  Merrick Garland probably won't allow them to go through with it near to an election.  The Georgia case remains embroiled in the Fani Willis affair.  That leaves only the Bragg hush money case, which even if Trump loses, will get appealed immediately, and most people think it's a stupid case.  Trump has yet to pay, he's yet to see justice, and at this rate, as I said months ago, and was laughed it, very likely that will never happen.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Trump has yet to pay, he's yet to see justice, and at this rate, as I said months ago, and was laughed it, very likely that will never happen.

Well if he loses the election, he'll face justice.  Not saying he won't get away with it, but he'll face the trials.  He can only delay it so long, and the government will press for it.  If he wins, of course, he'll get away with all of it.

The New York trial is the weakest case in the sense that Trump wouldn't even really face jail time, but remember that people aren't plugged into this stuff.  Swing voters that barely pay attention will know that Trump is a convicted felon.  Swing voters that start paying attention will realize that Trump paid a porn star hush money while he was cheating on his wife.  That doesn't matter in MAGA Land, but it matters in a lot of places.  That will absolutely cost him votes one way or another.

But all in all, I'm very disappointed in SCOTUS.  The legal system is way too slow, and guys like Trump are more than happy to take advantage of that.  Also, this goes back to Garland taking his sweet time.  This should've gone to trial a year ago or more.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The never-ending string puller behind Trump (Putin):


https://i.postimg.cc/xdSfWx0x/Screenshot-at-Feb-29-00-00-53.png

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I wish the media was taking this and broadcasting it for every minute, every hour...


https://i.postimg.cc/GpJLrFtc/Screenshot-at-Feb-29-00-04-47.png

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I'm sure there will be tons of campaign ads.  If Trump ever does a real debate, he'll be asked.  It doesn't matter, though, he'll wiggle out with some excuse that his people will believe.

At this point, I wouldn't count on anything impacting Trump outside of the New York trial being juicy enough to get people interested.  I think a lot of people, especially some of his Christian followers, might be turned off by some of the details coming out of that.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm sure there will be tons of campaign ads.  If Trump ever does a real debate, he'll be asked.  It doesn't matter, though, he'll wiggle out with some excuse that his people will believe.

At this point, I wouldn't count on anything impacting Trump outside of the New York trial being juicy enough to get people interested.  I think a lot of people, especially some of his Christian followers, might be turned off by some of the details coming out of that.

His faux "Christian" followers (despite the fact that they are all the antithesis of the name Christian), are not the ones to worry about. They are a very small minority at around a 23% portion of the overall republican vote.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

His faux "Christian" followers (despite the fact that they are all the antithesis of the name Christian), are not the ones to worry about. They are a very small minority at around a 23% portion of the overall republican vote.

Well the Evangelicals aren't going to care.  They know who he is and don't care.  But Evangelicals are only about 1/3 of the Christians in the country.  A lot of voters in this country probably have no idea who Stormy Daniels is, and I'm sure a decent amount of them would have trouble voting for someone who paid hush money to a porn star he was cheating on his wife with.

If we can get the majority of voters to know who Stormy Daniels is, and if Trump is convicted, I think it might be a bridge too far for independents and even some republicans.  Again, my wife watches the news every morning, but she isn't political.  She has no idea what Trump is alleged of doing.  And she's not alone.

I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about how they're possibly going to get a jury for these Trump cases because everyone knows about it.  But everyone doesn't.  Some people actively don't pay attention to politics.  The reporter agreed that when he does "Man on the Street" type interviews, people have no idea who is running and pay no attention.  These are the voters that decide elections, and they just need to know what's happened.  And if they do, I think a lot of them will turn away from Trump.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Trump has yet to pay, he's yet to see justice, and at this rate, as I said months ago, and was laughed it, very likely that will never happen.

Well if he loses the election, he'll face justice.  Not saying he won't get away with it, but he'll face the trials.  He can only delay it so long, and the government will press for it.  If he wins, of course, he'll get away with all of it.

The New York trial is the weakest case in the sense that Trump wouldn't even really face jail time, but remember that people aren't plugged into this stuff.  Swing voters that barely pay attention will know that Trump is a convicted felon.  Swing voters that start paying attention will realize that Trump paid a porn star hush money while he was cheating on his wife.  That doesn't matter in MAGA Land, but it matters in a lot of places.  That will absolutely cost him votes one way or another.

But all in all, I'm very disappointed in SCOTUS.  The legal system is way too slow, and guys like Trump are more than happy to take advantage of that.  Also, this goes back to Garland taking his sweet time.  This should've gone to trial a year ago or more.

This is why I keep saying, the slimeball will avoid prosecution.  As for Supreme Court, I was watching Neal Katyal, USSC lawyer extraordinaire, and he gave an interesting reasoning for this move.  First, yes, we know they could have taken the case directly when Smith wanted them to in December.  Why did they wait until now?  One explanation is that the Trump/Bush appointees wish to play politics and allow Trump to win.  Most legal experts says there is ZERO legal reasoning for an immunity claim, none, it will be rejected.  So why did they take this case?  Katyal says that Trump was also preparing to claim immunity on the Florida documents case, which would be AFTER he's left office.  That might have resulted in a differing opinion in Florida circuit vs DC, and so the Supremes decided this needs to be settled once and for all.  Okay fine, but why April 22 for arguments???  What is the delay?  They took the 14th Amendment case right away!  Albeit, they still have not ruled on that, either. 

Joe Biden's campaign need to come up with some kind of economic message or he's a goner.

2,510 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-02-29 16:01:38)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Joe Biden's campaign need to come up with some kind of economic message or he's a goner.

I mean isn't the message "look around?"  Gas prices are down.  The stock market is way up.  Jobs are up.  Wages are up.  The economy is really good.  People that think the economy is bad.

Even FOX News is pushing back on the narrative that the economy is somehow terrible.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ … r-BB1iTkcC

I guess people are allowed to be upset about how prices are higher now than they were in 2019, but 2019 was 5 years ago.  Even at normal inflation numbers, prices would be higher five years later.

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Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

One tidbit from today's legal wrangling, in the Florida case, the DOJ advised Trump judge Cannon that the "60-day rule" does not apply.  That is the DOJ rule that they don't wish to bring charges which may affect a contest within 60 days of election day.  However, it was clarified that Trump's case does NOT apply, because he was already indicted and the cases have begun being litigated.  I presume the same can be said for the D.C. case.  Does that mean either judge will actually start the cases prior to November?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Does that mean either judge will actually start the cases prior to November?

I think the DC case will start if they can before the election.

So Trump has done a couple of wily things.  He suggested an August trial date for the documents case.  Even though that case should be open and shut, Cannon can really make it difficult on the prosecution, plus the fact that it's a Florida jury.  If Cannon accepts the August trial date, it could mess with the timing of the DC case.  Then Trump can either hope the documents case continues to get pushed back, or he gets a pre-election acquittal from a friendly jury.

Would've been really nice if the Supreme Court just kicked back Trump's ridiculous argument.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

What will Trump's campaign be like given that his financial penalties and legal fees are much higher than his fundraising and more than what the Republican National Party can provide him?

2,514

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Does that mean either judge will actually start the cases prior to November?

I think the DC case will start if they can before the election.

So Trump has done a couple of wily things.  He suggested an August trial date for the documents case.  Even though that case should be open and shut, Cannon can really make it difficult on the prosecution, plus the fact that it's a Florida jury.  If Cannon accepts the August trial date, it could mess with the timing of the DC case.  Then Trump can either hope the documents case continues to get pushed back, or he gets a pre-election acquittal from a friendly jury.

Would've been really nice if the Supreme Court just kicked back Trump's ridiculous argument.

I'll go one further, the Supreme Court could take forever, and then make a narrow decision, and kick it BACK to the lower courts to rule again, delaying trials even further.  Cannon had no choice but to deny Trump's claim to classified documents, and other confidential FBI material.  Still hasn't ruled on the trial date. 

ireactions wrote:

What will Trump's campaign be like given that his financial penalties and legal fees are much higher than his fundraising and more than what the Republican National Party can provide him?

I've already "warned" that Trump has no designs on paying those penalties.  The lawyers will be paid by the Super PACs. 
It may sound futile, it may sound insane, he's not paying.  He will delay and post his bonds (that he'll never pay back), whatever.  Same as the criminal proceeding, his goal is to win and/or steal the election, be inaugurated, and then hit whatever entity is coming for him or his money with the Dept. of Justice.  E. Jean Carroll is already complaining she'll never see the money, and there's a good chance she won't. 

There was a NY Times/Sienna poll out yesterday, it shows Trump ahead 48-43.  The crosstabs are wild.  A clear majority of people think Trump is a criminal, and don't really favor him that much on issues.  Biden's unfavorability is monstrous, far worse than Trump's, and if it's even close to accurate, he cannot win.  That being said, I still think the sample is not realistic.  It was taken by landline/cell phone survey, and I'm increasingly skeptical of those.   The party affiliation, and demographics in the poll seems off to me, I think it's far too Republican.  Does it mean Biden is ahead?  Again, I cannot see that, given the sheer consistency in his poor standing. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 … stabs.html

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

He will end our Democracy.

Those who emulate the mustached man never do good things in the world. Never.


https://i.postimg.cc/sxmstmrM/trump-hitler.jpg

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

I've already "warned" that Trump has no designs on paying those penalties.

And as you've been informed, if Trump doesn't pay, his assets will simply be seized.

On the other stuff, I'm not sure, but I find your thoughts compelling.

The Supreme Court schedule has been viewed as Trump-support, conservative anti-Trump lawyer George Conway has said that the court may actually have some relevant things to add about whether or not a president can have immunity from using his office to assassinate political opponents and civilians for personal gain. Conway is a former Trumpist and very much a conservative (albeit not a non-MAGA conservative), so I take his stuff with a grain of salt, but it's interesting.

Conway on the Supreme Court's scheduling not actually being good for Trump:
https://www.newsweek.com/supreme-court- … ay-1875325

Polls are severely off, but are they off to the point where reality has a different winner than polled? I don't know, but it's very interesting. (By very interesting, I mean anxiety inducing.)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

What I'm holding on to is that people have just softened on Trump because he's not in the public eye today.  As the election nears, people (and I mean people that aren't following his speeches on a daily basis) are going to see more of him and be turned off (again) by him.  I think people are obviously upset with Biden about the economy (at least the economy in 2021 and 2022), about Israel, about Ukraine, etc.  But as the economy continues to thrive and people forget about 2021 a little more, Biden has the opportunity to remind them of the infrastructure wins he got (which help a ton of people) and remind them that Trump is a crazy lunatic.

Right now, people aren't picking the lesser of two evils - they're just picking "not Biden".  If Biden can get people to remember why they voted for him (or why they didn't vote for Trump), I think he'll be fine.  I also think Trump has hit his ceiling.  In most of these polls, there's more than enough undecideds for Biden to make up the distance.  They may just be people who can't currently say they support Biden, and I assume a lot of those people will not go to Trump.  I think all the people that are going to support Trump already do.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Okay so it's Biden vs Trump.

*Sigh*

*Deep Breath*

Okay.  So on paper this matchup is really no matchup at all.  One is a wannabe fascist who tried to overturn democracy and is clearly a sociopathic narcissist who doesn't have America's best interests at heart.  One is a public servant for decades who has worked to improve infrastructure, has tried to bridge the gap, and is willing to follow political norms.

The reality is that Biden is very old, acts very old, speaks very old, and has very low approval ratings.  A lot of that is the polarized nature of our politics where 50% of the nation will hate you because of what color tie you wear (its not exactly 50% but you get my point).  Some of it could be agism.  Some of it is based on things that aren't his fault (covid, supply chain stuff, worldwide inflation, etc).

But it is what it is.  In 2024, the president will be Trump or it will be Biden.  Not a third party.  Not a white knight.  Trump or Biden.

Our goal needs to be (as the anti-Trump bloc) to remind as many people as possible who Trump is.  Not "the president in 2019 when life was better."  Not the guy who the media shows 2-second sound bytes that make him seem normal.  The guy who is adamantly anti-democratic.  The guy who is a raging narcissist.  The guy who has been indicted in 91 felonies.  The one who paid a porn star to quiet her after an affair he had.  The one who asked the governor of Georgia to find him votes.  The one who worked to get the vice president hanged.  The one who tried to get Congress killed.  The one who hoarded sensitive classified documents and showed them to anyone who could get into his golf club.

Sensible Americans might vote for one of those two guys.  They won't vote for the other.

My hope is:

- the polls are critically flawed.  Primary voting has shown a massive underestimation of Biden and a massive overestimation of Trump.  If that continues (even if it's a small continuation), Biden sails to a victory.

- the more people see of Trump, the more they will remember why they didn't like him.  I'm hoping that people have forgotten why they didn't like Trump between 2016 and 2020.  I don't think there's any chance he's done anything to win people back.  So my hope is that as people start paying attention and Trump/Biden becomes a reality in people's minds, they'll remember who this dude is. And that the Biden campaign can show them the man that the media has yet to show them - a rambling, incoherent, narcissitic lunatic who can never be president again.

The game is on.  Let's do this.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

And so begins the sequel that no one (except maybe Kyle) wanted to a movie that nobody (aside from Kyle) could stand to watch the first time.

Oh God.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

So what I'd really like to see (if we get to keep having elections in America) is for it to be okay for a sitting president to get primaried.  I don't see why a sitting president shouldn't have to defend his/her record, and I don't see how it's democratic to just keep a guy because he won last time.  Someone can be the right person for the job one election cycle and not the right person the next cycle.  And I think it's okay to admit that someone might've been good for four years, but someone else could be better.

"But how does it help unite the party behind one guy if there's a challenge?"

I mean open primaries happen for at least one party every year, and in most cases, both parties every 8 years.  In other words, 75% of primaries are open primaries.  I don't think Biden was any more hurt by facing an open primary in 2020 than he is now - in fact, you could argue it's worse.

Now I think it would encourage primaries to be friendlier.  I don't think it would help if Newsom or Warnock was attacking Biden on his age for three months.  But I think Biden facing his critics and seeing what the voters think is a good thing.  And if Biden was the man for the job, he'd win an open primary.  And a battle-tested Biden might be better prepared to face Trump.

I don't think it'll happen anytime soon, but I'd like to see it. 

I don't know what would've helped derail Trump.  I don't know if Haley had gone negative on Trump earlier if it would've made a difference.  I honestly don't know if the indictments would've made a difference either.  I think Mitch McConnell might've been the only one that could've stopped Trump, and it sucks that he didn't do that.

But I still think Trump is a unique specimen that won't easily be reproduced.  And maybe we'll never see anything like it again in our lifetimes.