Topic: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Okay. So HEROES is returning. With a bunch of new characters and a bunch of old ones.

On one level, I think this could  be an effective return to Season 1's original intent: extraordinary situations, ordinary people discovering they have superpowers for the first time. A combination of characters who still have places to go or something to offer after the long hiatus (Parkman, Hiro, Noah Bennett, Angela Petrelli, Mohinder, Micah) and plenty of new characters to take center stage.

On another level... it's run by Tim Kring and after TOUCH, I've concluded that Kring is a great producer and a terrible writer. A Tim Kring show has beautiful locations, excellent directors, stunning music, star-studded casts and scripts that punch above the writer's weight. Kring has all these beautiful themes of interconnected fates and intertwined lives, but he hasn't the plotting or dialogue to make them anything other than nonsensical set-pieces. Characters behave nonsensically to further or stall the plot. Stories get written into corners and then absurd contrivances excuse Kring from consequences. Without Bryan Fuller on staff, Kring is clueless. So I can only hope that on HEROES REBORN, he's found some good talent and taken a step back.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Agreed. The cast is solid, but I'm not sure about including some of the characters who have already been messed up.

The trick to writing deep stories is to not try to write a deep story. Write a story and let it go where it will. Sometimes they will be deep and sometimes they won't. But if your goal is to be deep and meaningful, odds are pretty good that you will come across as shallow and full of yourself.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I sometimes wonder if the problem in the HEROES writers room was the lack of leadership. The constant changing and altering of people's powers. The inability to give Sylar a consistent character arc that wasn't abandoned for something else entirely. The inability to write Eve as the same character. The inexplicable declaration that the heroes and villains' powers came from the eclipse when they'd plainly established that the powers were from genetic factors unrelated to the sun. This strikes me as many different voices with contrary wishes and no one leading them towards a common goal.

Which makes me think that Tim Kring should hire someone to be the story editor and focus on the more practical aspects of production.

I hear Tracy Torme is available.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Trailer for HEROES REBORN. God help me, seeing a certain someone finally achieve his destiny -- I actually got excited.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC … -be-heroes

A synopsis of what HEROES REBORN will cover. I have to say, the marketing is making all the right statements. Ordinary people. Crazy situations. The focus on new characters is very wise. The idea that Noah, Angela, Matt, Mohinder, René, Micah, and Hiro will be supporting characters in the new characters' stories sounds effective and fitting. Maybe Peter, Sylar, Claire, Tracy and others are doing other things in this world and the focus is on a different set of people -- which is what Seasons 2 - 4 of HEROES should have done anyway.


One of the things that drove me crazy about HEROES: glimpses of the future in Season 1 revealed that Hiro, in half a decade's time, would become a capable, skillful superhero. But Seasons 2 - 3 muddled his character so much that by Season 4, Hiro was still the clumsy incompetent he'd been in Season 1. It was something of a relief to see Hiro in this trailer as the future Hiro who appeared in Season 1, suggesting the hiatus has been good for Tim Kring to think things through properly.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Heroes was always afraid to make any forward progress.  They never wanted anything from season one to really grow.  So none of their characters did.  Even the character that made the most progress (Sylar), just floated around the same area - creepy villain.  What made me the most angry was when he power-raped Claire and then the show still wanted us to think he was the good guy.

When he was WAY beyond redemption....

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Agreed. Which makes what was in the trailer so intriguing -- because somebody actually grew up, if that visual is anything to go on.

Unless it's a fake out?

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

It could be a tease.  Hiro growing up was teased a bunch and then never played upon because the writers didn't want to lose goofy/Japanese Masi Oka for cool/badass Masi Oka.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Hmm. It could be a tease. I was watching "Collision," where Future Hiro first appeared -- the footage of the older Hiro in the REBORN trailer actually looks like it was lifted from that episode.

Or they refilmed it for some reason.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

New trailer.

Well, it's not a fake out!

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC … g-and-cast

A lot of spoilers in this entry. Some news that will be saddening for some and a relief for others?

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I will be watching, but I'm not entirely sold on the revival yet. The idea of people with special powers being hunted is very much played out these days. I don't know that the series needed to be revived just to tell that story again. It just feels lazy now, for writers to assume that this is what would happen in that situation, and then just tell the same story. I hope there is more to it. A good reason to bring back this show, rather than something like Chuck, which would actually be more exciting to see.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC


I have some issue with people with powers being hunted. This storyline was done in the very strong Volume 4 ("Fugitives"). Well. I thought it was strong. The plotting wasn't any more sensible than Volume 3, I'll admit. But Bryan Fuller was back. Fuller refocused the plot developments on characterization. The individual episodes were very focused on the characters' internal conflicts and relationships even as they moved through the plot points. Volume 5, sadly, lost this focus and became all about the plot points with characterization awkwardly grafted on top (resulting in characters talking about seeking redemption rather than pursuing it).

I think HEROES REBORN has an interesting new take in that this isn't a shadow war. The evolved humans, Evos, have been exposed to the public as of the Season 4 finale and are experiencing persecution and prejudice. This is a new way of merging the extraordinary with the mundane and hopefully, the writers can explore this new world for HEROES.

I'm also intrigued by certain decisions: Hayden Panettiere was never approached to reprise Claire Bennet. The character has been killed offscreen. It's kind of abrupt in that she was the last thing ever onscreen for HEROES and then the next installment will indicate that she's dead. I think we've seen too many HEROES episodes where a character got a death scene and then it was undone. (Peter, Nathan, Noah, Claire, Sylar.) But given the unavailability of the actress, this death seems certain. Leads dying offscreen is never ideal. But the truth is that Claire was pretty played out as a character despite Fuller's best efforts.

It could be argued that Tim Kring was *never* able to do the show he wanted after the Season 1 finale. Now he has that opportunity. TOUCH did not reflect well on his talents, but I'm cautiously optimistic that he'll do something memorable and moving this time.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

So, downloaded the HEROES REBORN app and it's kind of crappy. The 'files' on each character are, instead, a series of clips from Seasons 1- 4. It's acceptable but rather artless and unengaging. Wikia does a better job. There are webisodes, but they're awkwardly played off YouTube (with ads before the actual video plays). The first webisode of DARK MATTERS, however, is intriguing. It's shot like a vlog and features a new character discovering her power. It really captures the wonder and joy of Season 1 and the down-to-earth sense of ordinary people experiencing the extraordinary. You don't need the app to watch it, however.

Skip the app, check out the web series.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I didn't really follow HEROES, but between that and the X-FILES revival, I'm very curious to see how well they'll actually work. If these do well, then maybe Universal (which also owns HEROES) will give SLIDERS another shot. Heck, maybe the revival would even air on Fox, which is bringing X-FILES back.

Notable between all three series is that they were loved by fans at first, then eventually went off the rails. If these returning shows are not only successful but actually good, that could be the most positive signs toward the possibility of a revival yet. If they're neither of these things, SLIDERS will likely stay gone.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Well, it premiered and I watched it.

I still don't think the show needed to come back. It's the same old story. The same lack of continuity (Noah apparently forgets that he has a son). The villain that Zachary Levi is playing comes across as a silly cartoon villain rather than a real menace (maybe if they didn't have him trapped in a kid's bedroom for two episodes...). The video game storyline was so stupid.
There are some good actors here. There might even be room for a good story. But rehashing the persecution storyline over and over and over again does not convince me that this series needed to come back from the dead.

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Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC


I really enjoyed it! I thought it would be *very* awkward for what's essentially Season 5 to open when Peter and Claire, central to the last time we saw the show, are nowhere to be seen. But Kring handled it deftly with the EVO/human gathering four years after the last series finale. It was an effective way of building on Volume 5 before starting Volume 6. All the characters were intriguing, the pacing and dialogue were effective and stirring and I enjoyed Kring's mystical take on the superhero genre. As with Volumes 1 - 4, everything was beautifully produced, staged, filmed, edited and scored and the actors all do a great job of suggesting extensive character beyond their limited scenes.

In the SLIDERS rewatch thread, I raged a bit about Season 3 of SLIDERS being unprofessional. HEROES REBORN is professional. That said, I don't think it really recaptures Season 1's theme of ordinary people in extraordinary situations. This is more HEROES Volume 4 (yes, the one where the superhumans were *also* being hunted down). It's gripping, compelling, exciting, and at times just plain weird, but it depends on your existing investment in the HEROES universe. Season 1 of HEROES made the superhero concept palatable to people who watched LOST and crime procedurals. HEROES REBORN is clearly something for the fans who already know the show and are willing to accept the absence of Claire and Peter and Sylar and others.

I don't think it's going to revolutionize the superhero genre like Season 1, but I think this is a good product and I'd be pleased for HEROES to have a better final note than the Season 4 finale. That said, it is inevitably an *awkward* note. Thankfully, Jack Coleman's Noah is present and the show is doing a good job of recapturing the production style of the old series, or this wouldn't really be anything like the previous HEROES at all.

I didn't see anything to indicate that Noah had forgotten about Lyle? Bringing back Molly was quite pleasing. I thought Zachary Levi was terrifying and I was amazed at how he eliminated *all* of Chuck's characteristics; he was nearly unrecognizable.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I also thought it was good.  In fact, I watched the prequel web series "Dark Matters" before it - it's a prequel series focusing on Quentin (conspiracy guy) and his sister (an EVO).  Both were pretty well done. 

What I like is that this isn't a reimagining entirely - there's threads tied to the first run.  And if we get more Micah, more Molly, etc - with cameos/flybys from non-HRG characters, this could really become what season 2 of Heroes was supposed to be - a new story each season.  It's a shame that Heroes wasn't produced now - after American Horror Story and True Detective, I think Kring might've had the guts to go through with his plan.

80% of my problem with Heroes seasons 2-4 have to do with Sylar.  With him out of the picture (only referenced in a visual cameo, which might've even only been in Dark Matters now that I think about it), it has a chance to succeed.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Where can I watch DARK MATTERS outside of iOS? I really hate the app.

20 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2015-09-29 22:11:13)

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I watched it On Demand.  Or on the website.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

So, Volume Five, Week Two. It was okay.

I guess the problem I'm having right now is that only some of the character arcs are really compelling in themselves and much of the story is still being driven by vagueness without concrete information. This drove me *crazy* with the original Season 1 of HEROES, but it also kept me coming back because I was invested in the characters. How would Claire deal with learning about her powers? What was Peter's secret as he ventured forward and learned more about his true nature? How was Nikki going to cope with her identity crisis? How could Hiro become a hero?

With HEROES REBORN, I'm not as invested in the characters. The Noah Bennett arc is strong, but the lack of solid information, even with clues, is keeping me from getting into it. The Luke character arc wasn't as well handled as I'd hoped; his lack of enthusiasm for continuing his murder spree actually reduces the impact of the reveal that he's an EVO. It would have worked better if he'd continued to genuinely hate EVOs right up to discovering he's what he's been hunting; the way they did it is instead rather muted.

The Ren and Katana Girl arcs suffer from the same problem as Molly Walker and Taylor. There is really no clear sense of who these people are. Why does Ren have so much time and enthusiasm for the Katana Girl mystery? Miko herself is largely devoid of personality. Molly is vulnerable and in danger, but there's no sense of who she is either or what she cares about or what she wants. Taylor is defined by being an agent and Francis' girlfriend. This absence of individuality is also matched by an absence of information. It's not fun to watch these characters onscreen.

The girl in the Arctic Circle has no personality and she's fighting a vague sense of vagueness.

The Carlos as El Vengador arc is strong. The Tommy teleportation arc is strong. Mostly because these characters are well-defined and have interesting dilemmas. Carlos is a burnout who suddenly finds direction from his need for vengeance and answers; Tommy is seeking peace but at the center of an EVO plot. There's mystery, but there's also concrete information. I know who these people are and what they want even if I don't fully understand what's going on around them. Same with Noah Bennett. But that means with 50 per cent of the show, I don't know who these people are and I also don't know what's going on.

So, basically, it's a Tim Kring show without Bryan Fuller to help.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I agree, mostly. The whole series feels muted and aimless to me. They started the series with a big exciting attack, but then immediately flashed forward a year, making that event seem less important. They could have just picked up that story from there, with most of the public feeling sympathy for the evos, but the mystery of who attacked the event. That would allow them to have a bunch of otherwise unrelated characters, united by this one event and hunted by whoever blew the place up.
Instead we get false mystery and Hollow intrigue.

Zachary Levi's character never got the chance to be dark and menacing. I never had the chance to believe that he didn't have powers before he did have powers. And his wife is friggin annoying!

I don't care about the Japanese characters who are just less interesting knockoffs of Hiro and Ando.

I don't care about Noah's meandering storyline.

Molly would have been a great character to focus on, if they did that. But they didn't.

Tommy is okay, but I feel like I've seen it all a hundred times before.

Carlos is okay, but seems useless. This is a big thing with the show. There doesn't seem to be a thread connecting any of these people. I'm sure that they will all unite at some point, but are we going to spend most of the series just spinning our wheels? How much of this series thus far could be edited out without hurting whatever main arc eventually comes out of it?

It would be different if these characters were very compelling, but they're not. So we have no plot and no characters. Why did they bring this show back?

I want to rewrite it so badly! But it would be a waste of my time, so I probably shouldn't. I could make this good though.

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Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I was thinking back on the original series and Season 1. And it wasn't really *that* different from what HEROES REBORN is doing as far as multiple characters in spread out locations dealing with separate stories. I think the *main* difference was the scripting style. The overall plot might have been all about the myth-arc of evolved humans. But the individual scenes, as scripted, were not about the mythology, but rather the characters.

HEROES REBORN done Season 1 style would be subtly different. Noah's scenes would be less about finding out what the Evil Company and more about him and Quentin bonding over their respective losses and recovering from their grief. Ren's storyline would be about how he's an obsessive gamer who keeps treating Real Life like a game only to be hit with consequence and danger and loss. Luke's storyline would be about his bloodlust for EVOs only to realize he's one of them. I think Carlos' plot has been pretty Season 1-esque -- every scene is about his trauma and his rage. Tommy's plot has been about his loneliness and isolation.

I really have no issue with the *plots* themselves, but rather the scripting style. And I think that this is what Bryan Fuller brought to the table. In Volume 4, Sylar's father was going to be the satanic villain of the volume. Fuller took that plot and just made it Sylar and John Glover talking for 3 - 4 scenes. The hunt for metahumans was part of the story, but it was ultimately about Sylar recognizing that his killing spree would simply leave him empty, isolated and alone. That emphasis on characterization is missing from HEROES REBORN.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I feel like this season is good but not really all that interesting, if that makes any sense.  I've been pleasantly surprised that Noah is the only real character who has shown back up (which makes sense from a plot standpoint).  Mohinder and Hiro have been referenced, but almost nothing else.  And I feel like the show feels a bit more fresh.  I'm gonna stick with it.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I thought Episode 4 of HEROES REBORN was awful. One of the most unsatisfying and empty episodes of HEROES ever made.

It drove me crazy that there was no real progress most of the plots, just delaying and stalling. Carlos makes some noise about committing to the vigilante life and puts together some equipment, but the episode ends before it goes anywhere. Katana Girl and Ren make it to the States but don't learn anything new. Noah and Quintin make it to Molly Walker but learn nothing new. And then there's Malina and Farah -- the show explains nothing of who they are or what they're doing.

I felt like nothing really happened aside from Tommy and Luke getting exposed as EVOs. But there was no weight to any of it. Tommy's plot was too short and quick to sell his desperation and grief. And Luke. His plot is very badly handled.

For Luke, there was no sense of how he went from eagerly murdering EVOs to becoming disenchanted with it. In his first scene, he kills EVOs because they're dangerous and he sees no alternative. But then, it's established that he wants to be selective in his targets; he doesn't want to pursue Tommy. In which case -- what is he trying to accomplish? Is he trying to rid the world of EVOs one by one? If so, why does he want to let Tommy go? Is he trying to salve his grief by taking out his rage on a race he's dehumanized? Then again, why does he want to spare Tommy?

Without a clear sense of where Luke started, there's no sense of where he's gone or how he's changed. And Joanne. Her character is played as a goofy, comedic, cartoonish serial killer. It's completely at odds with Luke's anger and hatred; it's like the two actors are in completely different productions and it undermines Luke's arc completely.

There were two scenes in Episode Four that were just a train wreck of Tim Kring's poorly considered writing. The first scene was Erica, the head of Renautas, dealing with her daughter, Taylor. Taylor asks about the whereabouts of Francis, her EVO lover, and she asks her mother why Renautas wants with EVOs. Erica dodges every question, refuses to offer a single concrete response to Taylor's queries -- and then she acts astonished and hurt when Taylor betrays her! Incredulous that leaders who are vague and evasive don't inspire trust.

To me, this scene exemplifies everything wrong with Tim Kring's writing. Characters inexplicably acting against their own interests because the writer has decided where the story will go -- Taylor betraying her mother -- rather than letting the characters and situations decide. Scripts and scenes that offer meaningless dialogue with no clear information and no sense of what is happening or why the viewer should be emotionally invested.

And then there's the scene where Noah confronts Taylor. For the first time ever, actor Jack Coleman is completely defeated by the script. It starts with Noah holding Taylor at gunpoint, demanding Molly Walker's location. Threatening her. But within a few lines of dialogue, Noah is suddenly trying to convince Taylor to switch sides! With no previous relationship between the two characters having been established, the entire scene becomes incoherent, jumping between hostility to emotional appeals. And Coleman completely fails to sell the transition or find any way to play this scene convincingly. After four years of HEROES, Tim Kring finally broke Jack Coleman with Season 5.

And then Molly Walker dies. We never got to know this adult Molly on HEROES REBORN. We had no sense of what she wanted, what she was looking for her, what she loved, hated or feared or what she stood for or believed. She may as well have been a cardboard cutout. At the very least, she should have been used to give a clear example of how this 'digitizing EVO powers' concept works and how it could be used -- but Episode 4 is vague and unclear about how the tech works or will be applied outside of the Renautas compound, and then it's taken off the board anyway.

Digitizing powers seems to be HEROES REBORN's new concept and it has been almost totally unexplored.

HEROES in Season 1 wasn't perfect and almost all of the above flaws were present. But Season 1 had Bryan Fuller smoothing out awkward character actions and decisions in the dialogue, making sure every scene was about the relationship between the people in the scene as opposed to the plot devices. There was also a sense of incremental progress. There was one episode where Hiro and Ando spent the whole episode wandering around a parking lot -- but it ended with Hiro confronting his father and realizing his dad was part of the metahuman plot. Every episode ended with some sense of what was coming. Episode 4 doesn't even try for that.

... I think it's time Tim Kring reconsidered his day job. He's not a good writer. He can't execute character arcs. He can't build mysteries. He can't create a sense of advancement. He can't write plots where characters act in accordance with their goals or natures. He can't exploit his assets for maximum impact. He can't communicate information clearly. This is evident in Seasons 2 - 4 of HEROES, shockingly present in nearly every episode of TOUCH.

He's a great producer. Every Tim Kring production has lavish location shooting, beautiful photography, stirring music and amazing actors. Maybe he should stick to budgets and logistics and let somebody else lead his writers' rooms. Megan Ganz. Tim Minear. Michael Taylor. Ronald D. Moore. Somebody else.

But of course I'll watch the rest of REBORN. I'm a superhero fan; I'm always eager to see how the genre turns out even if it's a catastrophe.

Here's hoping Episode 5 makes me eat my words!

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Hunnh. I was typing up my thoughts on the fifth episode -- but my thoughts are pretty much the same as the ones I had on the fourth episode, only with different scenes to give as examples of Kring's flawed writing.

.... so, nothing to add here. *sigh* It's really sad to see.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Sad, but not surprising.

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Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I enjoyed Season 1 on the BBC but never had time to watch later seasons.

Guess I had a Lucky Escape huh?

"It's only a matter of time. Were I in your shoes, I would spend my last earthly hours enjoying the world. Of course, if you wish, you can spend them fighting for a lost cause.... But you know that you've lost." -Kane-

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

ireactions wrote:

Hunnh. I was typing up my thoughts on the fifth episode -- but my thoughts are pretty much the same as the ones I had on the fourth episode, only with different scenes to give as examples of Kring's flawed writing.

.... so, nothing to add here. *sigh* It's really sad to see.

Um. I have pretty much the same opinion of the sixth episode. Well. I'll say this for HEROES REBORN; it's certainly efficient to review! All you need is an initial review and to set it up like a form letter.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Sad but true. They could have saved so much time if they just made it a two hour movie.

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31 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2015-11-02 14:24:10)

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC



Is it just me or is the idea of Claire dying in childbirth just crazy?

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC


I didn't understand it at all. How could Claire die? I thought maybe the shadow-girl's power-negation ability would play some role, but the dots were never connected.

I continue to be baffled by pretty much every storyline in HEROES REBORN up to this point. Why was Luke hunting Evos? Revenge? He was targeting people who had nothing to do with June 13. The belief that all Evos should be exterminated? Did he really think his murder spree was going to reduce the global population of Evos significantly?

Why the hell does Hiro, the TIME TRAVELLER, tell Noah that they have to hurry upon their arrival at June 13? Why does Hiro refuse to save anyone? If events up to the present have to be maintained, why doesn't he just freeze time and extract every person at the festival one by one and transport them to the 'present' day, ensuring that they will have survived without affecting any events leading up to the present? Why the hell does a TIME TRAVELLER believe in 'fate' or that events can't be changed?

Why did the video game creator seek Hiro's help only to trap him in a video game?

Why did Molly Walker feel the need to kill herself? Why was she afraid of Noah? Why did Noah need to forget about Claire's children, exactly? Why did he order the Haitian to kill him if he ever tried to find out? Are these actual mysteries? Or is it just incompetence?

I just can't figure out what's going on or how to get invested. This series has no relatable characters, no meaningful purpose, no clear plots -- it's just mindless foreshadowing to some story that is never going to be worth the build-up. Tim Kring really needs to find a new line of work.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Well, they explained how Claire died. Aside from that...

Ugh, this show. I thought it was supposed to be about superheroes. I thought it was supposed to be fun. Instead, it's so laboured, slow, self-important and the sweet, earnest, good-hearted Matt Parkman is a villain? What the hell is that?

This is one of those areas where it's such a drastic 180 from before that some detailed explanation for how and why Matt's turned from good to evil is absolutely required. The vagaries of Tim Kring's characterization are not acceptable in most circumstances; with Matt, it is absolutely impossible to believe his cruelty or willingness to use his powers to murder when the only motivation offered is *money* and a seat of on the lifeboat he doesn't even believe in.


Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Agreed. But then, they never cared much about keeping Parkman consistent.

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Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Well. HEROES REBORN is cancelled. Honestly, I can't believe Tim Kring had so many years to bring his series back and so much opportunity to do something great and instead produced this tedious mess. No relatable characters. A clumsy, nonsensical plot that's stretched out with stalling methods and delaying tactics that would make Bill Dial balk. Random characterization with people making onscreen decisions so baffling it's impossible to take it seriously -- like Hiro telling his TELEPORTING, TIME TRAVELING son to ABANDON him to fight clone soldiers alone for no adequately explained reason.

With Season 1, all these flaws were present -- but Bryan Fuller was helping rewrite all the scripts. Shifting it so that the delaying tactics came off as opportunities to have actors interact and reveal their characters. The plot would be slow, but we would become close to the characters. The characters, when doing nonsensical things, would see their behaviour rationalized through Fuller's in-depth characterization revealing their flaws and errors in judgement. Without Fuller, the scripts are simply exposition and the exposition is incoherent.

NBC should have refused to resurrect HEROES unless Tim Kring were restricted to a non-creative position. He's great at casting. He's great at production. He's great at finding amazing directors and making sure they have first-rate locations and effects and cinematography and the actual writing should have been led by someone else. Fuller would not have been available, so somebody else -- Jane Espenson and David Fury (BUFFY, ANGEL), Doris Egan (HOUSE, SMALLVILLE), Bryan Q. Miller (SMALLVILLE, BATGIRL), Chris Black (SLIDERS, UGLY BETTY), Michael Taylor (BATTLESTAR GALACTICA) -- someone with wit, a sense of myth and legend and with some experience writing superheroes. Fuller understood what Kring clearly doesn't: superheroes are a mythic representation of idealized human potential, something Kring understands but doesn't know how to evoke or portray. Volumes 2, 3 and 5 made it very clear: Kring needed someone to help him out with that, and any one of the above writers would have been able to rewrite his scenes the way Fuller did.

HEROES REBORN is a disgraceful abomination to the franchise.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Lol. I just came in here to rant that! I was initially excited about Reborn but it has been an utter disaster.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

The thing is, HEROES has no more plot holes than any other fantasy series I enjoy. I loved SMALLVILLE and read all the comic books, for God's sake. But HEROES REBORN has no emotion, no heart, no depth, no meaning, no joy, no wonder, no imagination. It's just plot, and it's not a particularly rewarding or engaging plot and what REBORN did to Matt Parkman is a crime against humanity.

Well. I did steal the title from this series for SLIDERS REBORN. Originally, SLIDERS REBORN was going to be SLIDERS: QUANTUM QUINTOLOGY and I think we can agree that REBORN is a much more striking banner.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Seeing Matt Parkman hold a defenseless woman at gunpoint and threaten her for three wristwatches was just contemptible. For God's sake -- Matt was a police officer and a good one! He believed in protecting the innocent and defenseless and there was no need for him to put a gun to Taylor's head! All he had to do was read Erica's mind; instead, Kring has written a formerly sweet, sincere figure as a malicious, sadistic monstrosity and with no more rationalization than a brief rant about wanting his due in life.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

At one point, Taylor snaps at Erica Kravid: "Enough STALLING!" And then Matt Parkman's character arc ends in a literal car crash. There comes a point when writers, having lost their way and knowing it, end up handing this sort of thing to their critics.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I've read what you've wrote, and I've really been unable to get enough emotion together to really be upset or disappointed in the series.  It's not good, and it hasn't improved on the mistakes that made seasons 2-4 the disasters they ended up being.  It's television that's entertaining but forgettable. 

"Company Woman" seems to cross over the line to just plain bad.  And it does some things that this show simply doesn't need to do.  I'm invested enough in this series to follow along and not much else.  I don't remember character names, even main ones.  I don't remember what happened to HRG except that he disappeared in the storm.  Was it someone we knew?  Was it clear who it was?  Why hasn't he been mentioned the last couple of episodes?  Isn't he the reason most of us are still watching this?

And in a show like that, when we don't care enough to learn the characters' names, why are they trying to make a 3-dimensional bad guy this late in the game?  I don't care about Erica (whose name I know because it's mentioned 10 times an episode).  When Tommy (a name I had to look up and he's a lead) asks her if it's true that she's been behind everything, she goes "Does it matter?" with an evil grin.  And I thought, least she's a bad guy now.  But then you throw these weird flashbacks in that makes us try and relate, but it's way too little way too late.  A villain can't be 1-dimensional all the way and then made interesting all the sudden.  She's not an interesting character, and this stuff didn't make her any more interesting.

The sins of the first season finale was that they set things up too well.  We'd seen everything and knew what was going to happen - we were just waiting for the puzzle pieces to finally land.  This one seems like a total mess, and there's just 40-minutes left.  And now that it seems pretty clear that this is the end, I don't think we're going to get any sort of resolution.  It's just another 13-episode glimpse into a world that has a lot of potential that it's failed to tap into over and over again.

Matt as a bad guy?  Is it a betrayal of the character?  Honestly, I don't know.  Or care.  We're talking about a 4.5-season show that has been good for most of one season.  There's probably 30 episodes that are good, and almost all of them were in season one.  Almost every character has been run through the ringer, and I can picture any of them going crazy and evil.  There's no consistency.  Heck, when it was hinted that Mohinder was a terrorist, I believed it.  Why not?

(Side note - I've made same argument about Sliders - there are only a handful of good episodes, and they're all basically the first season, if you count season 1-2 as one season).

Heroes:Reborn was just a bad idea.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I actually like Volumes 1 and 4 a lot. Volume 2 was interesting but an awkward abortion. Volume 3 started well but got convoluted. Volume 5 was boring.

In my view, HEROES REBORN could have been excellent. The problem wasn't the ideas. Kring is always full of ideas. The problem is that he executes brilliant ideas without the imagination, skill, care or cleverness needed to make them funny, dramatic, compelling and exciting. There were perfectly worthwhile character arcs here.

The first thing I'd have done: I'd have trimmed down the characters. There were too many people spread across the globe, especially for 13 episodes. So, I'd stick to three pairings: Noah Bennett and Quintin, Tommy and Miko, Erica and Taylor -- with characters like serial killers Luke & Joanne and Farah & Malina allowed to rotate in the slot for the fourth pairing.

I'd have made Tommy the fanboy of Katana Girl who can't remember how he ended up in Tokyo and ending up in an international spy movie, Noah and Quintin a buddy cop film, and Erica and Taylor as the antagonists of the story.

The second thing I'd have done: I'd just have used Bryan Fuller's technique for handling Tim Kring's stuff. Erica's character arc is a mess because the efforts to make her a nuanced antagonist consisted of her spouting vagaries and dodging questions while claiming it was all for a good cause. Noah and Quintin's scenes were purely expository; there was no in-depth focus on how they deal with regret and loss; Noah's regret makes him angry and dangerous while Quintin's regret makes him desperate and fearful, and both help each other heal and move forward. Erica is a crusader whose daughter, Taylor the knight errant, is losing faith in the cause but afraid to think her mother would be wrong.

I genuinely think that Tim Kring comes up with good stories -- he just doesn't tell them well.

Whenever Bryan Fuller was present on Volumes 1 and 4, the above-approach alleviated all of Kring's problems. The slow-moving plots were treated as an opportunity to go all character oriented. The nonsensical characterization in Kring's plots would, from Fuller, be depictions of troubled and conflicted characters. Subtract the Fuller-influence and presentation and you end up with HEROES REBORN.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Is Volume 4 the Circus?  If so, it was better.  So much of the in-between stuff was a mess for me that it blends together.  All I remember is that Sylar basically power-raped Claire (with actual rape imagery) and still was semi-treated as a redeemable character.

And I agree - I think he needs someone to focus him a little bit.  What's interesting to me is that I liked the idea that it was a new story with new characters when it was announced - that our main characters from the original run would be there but would be supporting instead of leading.  But I found myself so uninterested in the new characters that I actually perked up more when we saw Mohinder or Angela or Parkman. 

His ideas are good - I thought it was pretty clever that Tommy and Malina ended up being the twins.  It was a neat twist that I didn't see coming.  I think the world they set up was pretty cool, and I think it perfectly played off how season 4 left off.  I LOVE that he left Sylar out of it.  And, for the most part, the Petrellis. 

But the new characters weren't interesting, entire plots (the luchador guy) went nowhere, and the acting has been pretty weak.  For the most part, I think Zachary Levi is the only one that seems interested in being there.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I would argue that Kring is a genius at conception who simply needs another genius to help him (re)write all the scripts. But outside of Fuller, he has never sought that collaborator, and as a result, TOUCH and HEROES REBORN are just embarrassments. Imagine if Josh Friedman (SARAH CONNOR CHRONICLES) had been asked to take Kring's REBORN ideas but shepherd the stories from outlines to shooting scripts and rewrite every scene.

I suspect a lot of the casting choices were due to budget. The HEROES REBORN actors are all excellent. I wouldn't blame them for any of the material aside from their agreeing to perform it. All the ideas here -- digitizing superpowers! Picking up years after the Season 4 cliffhanger! Creating distance from Sylar and Peter! The twins! The villains are actually trying to save humanity! There's neat stuff here -- but it would have been best if Kring had written brief summaries of the 13-episodes -- and then had a collaborator taking over fleshing out each episode and making sure each installment and each arc were focused, tight and meaningful and that every character's line and action informed and revealed.

A lot of the developments are just artless. For example, the idea that Tommy is actually suffering from amnesia is not built to -- there aren't clues and hints that mislead but fit. The memory wipe, as a blanket explanation, doesn't explain why Tommy doesn't notice all the gaps in his memory. There's a lot of blatant filler in these episodes like the videogame segments. None of the scenes for Luke actually address his hatred for superhumans and discovering he's one of them. These are all problems that, I think, are present in any first draft; it's important to then refine, rewrite and revise.

Instead, I often get the sense that Kring is just not going through the process of developing and reworking his material. This was something Bryan Fuller did for him and, for whatever reason, Kring has failed to find someone else to perform that role. I don't know why. When Fuller returned to HEROES for Volume 4 ("Fugitives," where the government is hunting superhumans), Kring readily deferred to Fuller, so it's not like Kring was dismissive of collaboration at a later date.

Not a popular opinion here: I thought Volume 4 was excellent. I'm not saying it wasn't filled with logical errors, but with Fuller back, everything made *emotional* sense. And then, with Volume 5, the circus, -- I know you guys liked it, but to me, it was much like HEROES REBORN -- slow, bland, vague and boring.

When HEROES REBORN was finding writers, there were plenty of available veterans writers from BUFFY, ANGEL, SMALLVILLE, THE DEAD ZONE, LIE TO ME out there, all with experience writing superhero shows filled with stirring visuals and punchy dialogue and striking characters. Kring is good at conception, he needs a partner to help him write the scripts.

It's a real shame he didn't do this and it's a really sad way for HEROES to go out.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I agree with all of the above. This season has been a mess, and makes me a little upset that Heroes was the series that they decided to bring back (instead of something like Chuck). I think another problem was the mid-season time warp. When they came back, things had changed, but they never really let us know what had changed and what hadn't. It made it difficult for me to follow the story, and I'm not someone who usually can't follow a story like this.

The potential was here. I just wish the writing was there. The fanfic writer in me kinda wants to take the ideas and rewrite the whole damn thing, but that would take too much time.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Deux Ex Childrena?

How come time travel powers + wind (?) powers = Fifth Element powers?  If Nathan/Tommy's power was to leech powers (like his uncle and grandfather), then why doesn't he ever do this again?  Does he only steal one power once and that's the one he gets forever?  How come the lab technician was killed immediately after he touched Nathan/Malina, but HRG just goes white and then dies?

Why would any of these reboot/sequels EVER end on another cliffhanger?

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I thought that he shared Malina's power at the end, but none of it really makes sense. He took Claire's power and killed her. Then he took Hiro's power. But they never really said which kind of leech he was. They didn't seem to care.

HRG was a main character, so he got a death scene. This bugs me on TV... Important characters never suffer as much as extras. Like on Arrow when poison gas kills extras in seconds, but doesn't harm any main characters.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Informant wrote:

I thought that he shared Malina's power at the end, but none of it really makes sense. He took Claire's power and killed her. Then he took Hiro's power. But they never really said which kind of leech he was. They didn't seem to care.

I mean, maybe?  It seemed like an entirely new power - not just "pushing" the flare away.  And his taking away of powers was permanent, right?  So if he leeched Malina's power, he would've leeched it when they were kids too.  In fact, that was the reason they were split up.  So why be un-split up later? 

But, yeah, it doesn't matter.  They didn't seem to care.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC


Why oh why oh why oh why did Tim Kring, knowing this was a single-season mini-series, END ON A CLIFFHANGER?!?!?!?!?

Tim Kring is teasing (and threatening) some follow-up to HEROES REBORN, NBC president Bob Greenblatt (also the guy who called SLIDERS in Season 3 to be much stronger than Seasons 1 - 2) said that if Kring had more ideas, there could be more HEROES. Ugh.

The sad thing is, the series finale wasn't even that bad, but it had the best and worst of HEROES. Unlike the previous episodes, it was filled with incident and didn't feel slow and stalled. Like the previous episodes, there was no care for theme, characterization and storytelling. With some tweaks and adjustments, HEROES REBORN could have been about sacrifice.

If Claire's death had been presented as her sacrificing herself for her children, if Tommy's identity crisis had been shown as him sacrificing his identity to save the world, if Carlos' issue had been that he'd taken credit for someone else giving up their lives -- then Noah's death would have worked. But REBORN was far, far too late in indicating that Malina and Tommy's powers could combine while being lethal to the conduit.

It's a real shame, and it just goes to show how HEROES REBORN would have been better off if Tim Kring would take a step back from writing and hire someone else to produce the scripts.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Weird. You could swap out Chris Carter for Tim Kring and post this in the X-Files thread. smile

I agree, of course.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Apparently, Tim Kring is pitching HEROES: ECLIPSED to potential buyers. This would be another limited run mini-series revival with some of the original actors and a new cast: … -eclipsed/

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I don't know how many more stories that Heroes has to tell, but I'll watch this if it ever happens.

52 (edited by ireactions 2024-04-11 13:57:13)

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I mean, you and I made our way through Season 5 of SLIDERS and HEROES REBORN, so we clearly have a high tolerance for multiple episodes of aimless tedium that are circuitous and meandering and without a point. And in terms of aggressively poor television, I watched "This Slide of Paradise" twice in my life, so I guess I have to concede that I too would watch HEROES: ECLIPSED.

That said... I'd say that HEROES demonstrated that Tim Kring is exceptionally great at conceiving, pitching, selling and producing a show: concepts, cinematography and director teams, amazing casting, wonderful locations and high production values -- but he's been exceptionally poor at actually showrunning a series, with Season 2, 3A, 4 and REBORN revealing a lot of incoherent character behaviours, filibustering dialogue to stall and delay, and a total inability to stage a compelling climax, payoff and conclusion. TOUCH was also about the same.

When HEROES succeeded in Seasons 1 and 3B ("Fugitives"), it was because Bryan Fuller was working on the show and Tim Kring clearly saw and deferred to Bryan Fuller's genius storytelling. Fuller has become a problematic figure in recent years, but I think it shows that Kring is a great TV producer who needs to be partnered with a great TV writer-showrunner.

I made the following comments to Rewatch Podcast, who are doing a rewatch-review of the series:

I honestly never found HEROES or HEROES REBORN to be *bad* in the sense of actively hurtful, harmful and abusive to its audience. We're not talking about something like the Professor getting his brain sucked out and getting shot and blown up, or Wade being sent to a rape camp, or home being invaded by Kromaggs and Rembrandt abandoning us all to die.

I would say that HEROES was more... incompetent. It was counterintuitive and seemed incapable of setting up its payoffs or paying off its setups. It was puzzling, confusing, baffling, and meandering. It was not a *bad* show in the sense of SLIDERS constantly trying to hurt its actors or previous writers and by extension hurting the fans. It's more that HEROES was inept. Ineffectual. Inefficient. I think incompetent is probably the right word.

I guess it was a bit like those post-Kevin Williamson episodes of DAWSON'S CREEK. You liked and disliked some of the episodes, I only watched up to Season 4, but my argument was not that the writers were bad, but that the series was defined by the voice of a very specific set of experiences and a very specific style from Kevin Williamson, and when Williamson left, the show never regained its footing.

With HEROES, I think that despite Tim Kring creating the show, the reason it worked was because of Bryan Fuller. Bryan Fuller understood that with the budget and effects limitations, HEROES was going to be defined by what I call "conversational conflict" or as detractors might describe it, people standing around talking (or "a Kevin Smith movie").

Fuller understood to make each conversation an exploration of the characters' psyches: their fears, insecurities, failings, weaknesses, needs, desires. Fuller understood how to make people standing around talking into something that was usually compelling, and he really raised the quality of the show within its limitations.

Bryan Fuller left after Season 1, and unfortunately, Seasons 2 and 3A deteriorated in his absence. The remaining writers just didn't have Fuller's gift for conversational conflict, which in their hands became filibustering and stalling followed by shock value scenes that lacked Fuller's talent for characterization. Fuller came back about 1/6 into Season 3B and noticeably, the quality leapt upward. But then Fuller left before Season 4 started, and the results were... I mean, when we're not talking about SLIDERS, I don't like to say that a writer is bad or that a creator is bad.

Fuller had a talent for finding ways to limit onscreen use of superpowers and make it look like conflict and characterization. In the later writers' hands, it looked like avoidance and authorial dictate.

I think they just didn't have Fuller's unique touch and ability to write a very difficult show under very difficult restrictions. Superpowers on a TV budget from 2006 - 2010 was really hard; SMALLVILLE went from 2001 - 2011 and SMALLVILLE couldn't afford to let Clark fly or and couldn't even manufacture a Sueprman costume for the finale. HEROES struggled even more because SMALLVILLE usually just had two or three superpowered characters in an episode whereas HEROES would have anywhere from 6- 10 per episode. Kring's ambitions outstripped his budget and his talent pool (once Fuller left).

Bryan Fuller himself is a pretty problematic figure today, but I don't question his writing skills.

Anyway. I know that Tom and Cory will always be fair, and they genuinely understand television despite never having made any. Tom and Cory understand that TV is limited by what's performable and filmable, and they grasp the visual limitations and don't ask for the impossible. But often, HEROES unfortunately fell short of even the minimally achievable.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Catching up on REWATCH PODCAST with Tom and Cory reviewing Season 2 of HEROES.

It's funny -- Season 2 of HEROES was in 2007. It was 17 years ago. But I still feel really sad about the Caitlin character.

Since it was 17 years ago, I should probably explain: Caitlin was an Irish barmaid with no superpowers, whom Peter Petrelli romanced in Season 2. They accidentally visited a future timeline where Earth was ravaged by a terrible virus. Peter and Caitlin were separated, and when he tried to save her, Peter accidentally travelled back to the present day. Peter couldn't go back for Caitlin until he'd acquired a cure for the virus and regained control of his time travel powers.

Originally, Season 2 was going to have Peter return to the future and Caitlin would re-enter the storyline. Unfortunately, due to the writers strike of 2007, the 24 episode order got cut to 11 episodes. The 11th episode was originally a mid-season cliffhanger with the virus being unleashed.

But when the writers saw that the strike was coming, they realized they had no idea when they'd be back on the air after their 11th episode; they hadn't even started filming the 12th. With the likelihood that it could be as much as a year before HEROES could air another episode, the creators decided to reshoot their 11th episode cliffhanger. They instead made Season 2, Episode 11 a season finale where the virus was contained, averting the future of viral contagion... which also erased the future timeline in which Caitlin was trapped.

Then it became difficult to follow up on Caitlin. Season 2 came to its abbreviated end in December 2007, the airdate for Season 3's premiere was September 2008. Heroes had been off the air for 10 months, as opposed to a usual 2 - 3 month summer break. Ten months was way too long to reopen virus plotline. Which meant the show couldn't revisit Caitlin.

When asked about Caitlin in pre-Season 3 publicity and if her character would reappear or even be mentioned, showrunner Tim Kring said, "No, we passed it. We leapfrogged it," explaining the virus plot was just not something they could revisit, and understandably so. A season premiere, especially after 10 month hiatus, needs a clean slate. I understand the decision.

And I know it's ridiculous to still feel sad about it. But it bothers me.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I don't understand that argument.  Friday Night Lights had the exact same situation that year.  They had a bunch of second-half stories they were going to tell but had to quickly wrap up their season.  When the season returned, they didn't go back to the previous year/season - they moved on (each year was a new football season / school year).  But they quickly caught viewers up on what happened, even filming some things that "happened in season two" that we didn't get to see.  As I said in a different post, they essentially pretended like the season happened and moved forward with the aftermath of the events that would have happened.  People that weren't together when the last season ended are together.  People that were together are broken up.  Games happened that we never saw.  A really big injury happened.

And that was because FNL was stuck with a format that made sense.  Time had to move on.  But Heroes wasn't.  They could've done anything.  Even if they didn't want to use Caitlin anymore or couldn't use the actress, there could've been a throwaway line where Peter mentions that he went to the future and either brought her home or left her there or whatever.

Seems like a lazy answer based on either forgetting to resolve it or not caring enough.

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

I just want to say: listening to Tom and Cory recap HEROES is vastly preferable to actually rewatching it.


I would note that HEROES and FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS in 2007 were dealing with different narrative situations. I'm not super-familiar with sports, but I assume that sports matches and a pandemic are events that take place on pretty different scales. It may work for football games to happen offscreen. That wouldn't work for an end-of-the-world situation (although MILLENNIUM tried to wrap up a global pandemic between Seasons 2 - 3 and to laughable results).

HEROES had planned a 24 episode arc for Season 2: the first 11 episodes were Volume 2, "Generations", and revealed that superhumans, including Sylar, were becoming infected with a debilitating virus. Peter and his girlfriend Caitlin (Katie Carr) accidentally visited the near future in which the virus had begun infecting normal humans, and 93 percent of the human race had died. Peter lost control of his time travel powers and was sent back to the present before he could bring Caitlin back with him. Episode 10 revealed that the legendary samurai Takezo Kensei, also the immortal known as Adam Monroe (David Anders), had created the Shanti Virus as a means of population control and sought to unleash it. Monroe would later goad and taunt Peter that the woman he loved was trapped in a terrible future.

"Generations" was to end with Episode 11 in which Peter would fail to stop the virus from breaking out, heralding the future he saw and in which Caitlin was stranded. The town of Odessa, Texas would be quarantined. Nathan, announcing the situation to the press, would fall ill and collapse.

Then we'd have Volume 3, "Exodus", across Episodes 12 - 24. The heroes would try to contain the virus while Peter would trying to regain control of his time travel powers before changing the future, so that he could save Caitlin before that future timeline was erased.

When the HEROES creators realized that they would have to stop production with Season 2, Episode 11, they were facing a difficult situation. Due to their shooting schedule and contractual agreements, even if the strike were resolved, HEROES would be filming Season 3, not the second half of Season 2. The viral outbreak storyline was not something they could cover with a time gap and references to offscreen events. It needed to be a current and immediate situation if the story were to be told at all. Also critical to the story were Caitlin and Adam Monroe, which was another problem.

With the strike and the hiatus, HEROES had lost full access to David Anders, whose Adam Monroe was intended as the primary villain of Season 2. And HEROES' contract with Katie Carr to play Caitlin expired as well, and my understanding is that once Season 2 shut down, Carr was travelling between the United States, England and Australia, engaged in a modelling career and studying screenwriting in London. The bookings and studio sets HEROES had made for locations to render the viral quarantine of Odessa, Texas were also lost.

They'd lost the ability to use David Anders as the primary villain, they'd lost Katie Carr, they'd lost their preproduction work, they'd lost the immediacy of following up on Episode 11 a week later. With all this, the HEROES creators felt it simply didn't make sense to end Episode 11 on a clifffhanger and do the "Exodus" viral outbreak storyline in Season 3 in 6 - 12 months' time. They had no way of following up on it properly with all their losses.

If they'd done "Exodus" for Season 3, they would have had to write David Anders out with minimal appearances; they would have been unable to feature the Caitlin character significantly or at all. They would be following up on a viral outbreak cliffhanger that had aired 10 months ago, losing the opportunity for Season 3 to offer a clean and clear jumping on point for viewers as is expected for the season premiere of a major network show.

Given the multiple characters and arcs unfolding simultaneously in Season 2, it was a lot to ask a 2007 - 2008 audience to remember. HEROES was only available to stream via NBC Direct for US residents and wouldn't be available on iTunes until 2009.

Even as recently as 2021: I watched THE FLASH where the first three episodes of Season 7 were devoted to the mirror dimension plotline of Season 6, a season that had been cut short due to the pandemic hiatus. Like HEROES, THE FLASH was off the air for 10 months. Unlike HEROES, THE FLASH didn't (and couldn't) wrap up its truncated season and had to devote the first three episodes of Season 7 to resolving Season 6.

I was a devoted fan of THE FLASH, and I watched Season 7's first three episodes with great confusion. It had been 10 months since Season 6 and I had largely forgotten all the details of the storyline. I couldn't remember who Eva McCulloch was or what she wanted or how the artificial speed force tied into it or how mirror duplicates were involved. I couldn't remember. And I was too busy to rewatch Season 6. Due to limited recall, THE FLASH's sixth season opening was baffling to me.

And THE FLASH in Season 6 had a lot less going on than HEROES of Season 2, so I would posit that the average viewer would have found Season 3 of HEROES even more confusing than Season 6 of THE FLASH had HEROES attempted to do the "Exodus" storyline 10 months delayed.

I think the HEROES team saw that the virus plot was not something they would be able to follow up on effectively, so they reshot Episode 11 slightly so that Peter would stop the virus, and the replacement cliffhanger wouldn't require the audience to remember the Shanti Virus storyline when Season 3 premiered.

And on the whole, the creators' predictions seem to have been pretty accurate. David Anders was tied up with an independent movie when Season 3 started and had to be written out fast; Katie Carr was, I believe, in Australia. Ignoring Caitlin was a bad option, but there were no good (or available) options to bring her back.

From a writing standpoint, it was also difficult to address the emotional fallout of Caitlin's lack of fate. But the strike made it impossible to film anything new with Katie Carr for Episode 11; even if they attempted to save her with dialogue referring to her being offscreen, how could they save her from a timeline that was gone? Given that Peter couldn't control his time travel powers and was fighting Hiro at the end of Season 2, what options had there been to resolve Caitlin's storyline before the virus future was revented? Addressing Caitlin was a problem; ignoring Caitlin was a problem. HEROES is about ordinary people in extraordinary situations. Peter Petrelli's character is defined by his empathy and how he connects with people, reflected in his power of empathetic ability replication. Caitlin is an ordinary person, so leaving her in a horrific future undermines HEROES' entire mission statement.

Caitlin is an innocent person whom Peter loved, so Peter not saving her undermines Peter's characterization. Peter would either seem callous for dismissing her situation or be shattered by his inability to return to that future to save her, which would tie his character up in a distant storyline. As a result, the writers made the displeasing -- but understandable -- decision to simply never refer to it again: to bring it up would either undermine Peter or overcomplicate Peter. Their expectation was that when Season 3 premiered in September 2008, the majority of the audience would have forgotten about Caitlin, a character who had not been seen onscreen since November 2007, almost 11 months.

So, there were really no good options here: ignore Caitlin and move on from the virus plot and seem callous to anyone who remembered the character. Focus on Caitlin and the virus plot and Season 3's first impression would be that it was still mired in a storyline that, without immediacy and recent memory, was now difficult to follow and remember and also difficult to film due to losing the guest actors.

They chose to ignore Caitlin and hoped the audience would too... and I can't say the alternative would been any better. So I forgive the writers for choosing the simplest bad option over the complicated and confusing bad option. And I think they forgave themselves.

What HEROES should have done, however, which they never did -- they should have devoted one of their many webcomics to resolving Caitlin's story so that fans who did remember and care about Caitlin wouldn't think poorly of Peter for never mentioning her again.

I would note that the Charlie character (Jayma Mays) in Season 1 was really beloved as Hiro's love interest. She even inspired a tie-in novel, SAVING CHARLIE. But Charlie's character was unsustainable for the show as a regular, and she died a terrible fate. She wasn't mentioned in Seasons 2 or 3.

And yet, the HEROES creators brought the character back in Season 4 to give her a (somewhat) happy ending. I think they would have liked to do something similar for Caitlin... but how?

I imagine the reason the creators didn't at least produce a comic book is because with the viral outbreak timeline having been erased, the writers were at a loss for how to even find Caitlin. Even in a comic book: how were they supposed to get Peter back to that future timeline that was no longer available, even to a time traveller?

I myself have needed 17 years to come up with a solution...

Re: Heroes Reborn on NBC

Here's my story to give Caitlin a happy ending while leaving the post-Season 2 continuity unchanged.

Frozen Time

Caitlin is living a wonderful life in Montreal with Peter: a peaceful marriage, running a bar, and Peter working as a paramedic. But her nightmares remind her of a virus-ravaged future. And Caitlin starts to realize that time around her seems to run in a loop and oddly, she isn’t aging. Despite 40 years of happiness, she remains frozen in time. She realizes that she is trapped in a mysterious pocket dimension.

Peter admits the truth. He explains that he intentionally trapped them both here.

At the end of Season 2, Peter was crushed by his failure to retrieve Caitlin from the future. With Hiro's help, he repeatedly revisited the pivotal moment from "Powerless" where Peter prevented the viral outbreak -- and erased the future where Caitlin was stranded.

Peter had no way to find her again. His power and Hiro's did not allow him to traverse parallel timelines. He asked Hiro for help.

Peter and Hiro tried stopping Peter from stopping the pandemic, restoring the viral-ravaged future from which they could save Caitlin. But then they couldn't stop the pandemic at all, which would turn Caitlin's future into their present. They were forced to reset time to the way it was before.

Peter and Hiro tried delaying Peter's confrontation with Hiro and then Adam, giving Peter more time to visit the future to find Caitlin, minutes after Peter had failed to rescue her. But two time travel events in proximity created a burst of temporal momentum that caused them to return weeks after Adam had already unleashed the pandemic, and it was too late to stop it. They were forced to reset time to the way it was before.

Peter and Hiro tried delaying Peter's confrontation, then retrieving Caitlin at a later point in the future. But at that later point, Caitlin had already been infected; bringing her home would again turn the present into Caitlin's future. They were forced to reset time to the way it was before.

Desperate, Peter collaborated with Hiro in a fourth effort, combining their time-travel abilities. Together, they created a pocket dimension where Caitlin’s disease progression was looped, never getting better or worse, and where Peter and Caitlin could enjoy a happy life within a temporal bubble of bliss.

For 40 years, Peter and Caitlin thrived within this time bubble. But now it’s collapsing, and Caitlin leaving the bubble means her death.

Caitlin is saddened that her life has been cut short by a loop and mourns the lost potential, lost opportunities and lost life. Peter offers to take her wherever she wants to go for her last few hours of life; the loop will prevent her from infecting for a few hours after leaving the bubble.

Caitlin asks Peter to take them to shortly before they first met: when Peter was an amnesiac in Ireland, chained up in a storage container. Caitlin plants information to alter events, ensuring that Elle, the superhuman who was hunting Peter, and who has electrical superpowers, will find Peter before Caitlin's brother came across Peter.

As a result, in this altered timeline, Caitlin never meets Peter, never goes to the future, never gets stranded, never gets sick. Instead, the role of Peter's companion is now occupied by Elle, who accompanies Peter into the future and whose powers enable her to not be separated from Peter.

In this new timeline, Caitlin lives a life untouched by Peter’s influence, while Peter forgets her entirely.

The story concludes as Peter returns to the moment he first attempted to save Caitlin: the press conference in “Powerless.”

The altered timeline erases Peter's memory of her, explaining why he never mentioned Caitlin again.

And so, in the folds of time, Caitlin’s fate finds resolution, even if it remains hidden from the world.