Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Biden campaign, as Slider_Quinn21 noted, did an interview today and reiterated that Joe Biden is not leaving the race:
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch … 5247429608

Christopher Bouzy, a very interesting political analyst, says that journalists who claim Biden is considering a departure to be "full of shit".
https://x.com/cbouzy/status/1814397785472676258

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez warns Democrats that if Biden leaves, the path to Kamala Harris is not as simple or immediate as one would hope.
https://www.msnbc.com/the-reidout/reido … rcna162761

All I can say is: democracy cannot and should never be about one person, Democrats have the right to voice their concerns after that debate, and I want Joe Biden to stay if he can win. I am not sure he can win given the crashing donor support, and I have serious concerns about his diminished speech. If Biden can reacquire donor support and campaign effectively for the working class of America, he can win and he can win big. But it's not about him. It's about the country.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I've never heard more naive politicians in my life. You're going to overthrow the votes of 14 million people. The current candidate by the way also gets in white blue collar males. You're going to throw all those votes away. Then you have to add it by VP which people have to decide if they like or not.

Then we're only 69 days right now from the actual first votes -- 69 FREAKING DAYS!!

Then the Republicans will drag us through the courts how many more weeks do you lose because of that what right up to the election?

And we've wasted 4 weeks on this crap when we already had an elected candidate and the only reason they want to remove him is because he's old.

Because he passed all the cognitive and medical tests. Yes he had a very bad debate. But he hasn't had a bad moment since. He always has stumbled over his words. He's never been a great orator. He's always struggled with his speech impediment.

None of that's new. Maybe a little worse because he's older but none of that's new.

He has done an amazing job as President. He's sitting on over 100 million dollars in funds. But the Billionaires that give the big money have decided they will not support him or the down ballot candidates unless he gets out and unless they tell him to get out.

I am so angry and frustrated. They're going to cost us this election. We might squeak through because Trump is showing that he's actually literally crazy, but we might not.

I'm so furious.

We had a candidate we voted on him I'm sorry it scared you that he had a bad debate but if they had they circled the wagons and turned the firing squad external instead of at their candidate we would have gotten past this because he actually gained voters from people who watch the debates.

And media is just as responsible.

They have hammered on him 6, 10, 12, 18 hours a day. I can't even find coverage of the RNC Trump speech last night because you're so busy denigrating a man who doesn't deserve it. Trump DESERVES IT!!! Do it to HIM!!!

Geezus freaking....

And this isn't about whether I like Biden or don't like Biden this is about the realities of campaigns. It's about politics and how people vote.

People feel loyalty to Biden. People know Biden cares about them. You can't just insert someone in that slot because they're younger and think that's going to galvanize voters cuz it's not. Harris is already on the ticket if she was going to galvanize voters she already would have.

Grrrrrrr ...

2,823 (edited by ireactions 2024-07-19 17:07:29)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I personally can't take issue with anyone questioning whether or not Biden can campaign effectively given his severely diminished speech and verbal stumbles and serious difficulty communicating his platform and plans, whether it's mangling a rent cap of 5 percent to "fifty five dollars" or turning "ballot box" into "battle box". Communication is vital in a campaign. And if Kamala weren't capable of serving and campaigning for the job of president, she wouldn't be VP.

I personally can't take issue with anyone insisting that Biden's their guy and they're sticking with Joe. He's a good president and (in old age) a good man and a good politician who has lost high dollar donor support and party support. It may no longer be within his control to change those two factors. But again, if Biden can get his fundraising back and get his party together and campaign on what he'll do to shore up and stand by the middle class, he can win. And he can win big.

Senator Lindsay Graham (Republican):

If you don't like Joe Biden as a person -- that's probably -- you got a problem. You need to do some self-evaluation. Because what's not to like? Here's what I can tell you: that life can change just like that. Don't take it for granted. Don't take relationships for granted.

I called him after Beau died. And he basically said, "Well, Beau was my soul."

I've told for a long time: he came to my ceremony and said some of the most incredibly heartfelt things that anybody could ever say to me. And he's the nicest person I think I've ever met in politics. He is as good a man as God ever created.

Lindsay Graham is loathesome. I like Joe Biden as a person. I'm just worried about the future.

2,824 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-20 08:59:59)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

To SQ21, I'm voting Biden even if he's a brain in a jar.  Albeit I find him more and more incompetent, and without a firm, realistic plan on several issues.  Trump could promise me Margot Robbie won't get my vote.  He tried to steal an election, it's an unforgivable offense.  So I'm the wrong person to ask.  The race is decided by like 4% of the voting public which remain very depressed with both candidates.  As for replacing him, a reporter pointed out that Joe is notoriously slow about these kinds of decisions.  This has plagued his Presidency in fact.  He will not fully commit and uses incremental and half measures that only make things worse.  Biden will drag this out. It's not even ego, it's just a guy who lacks decisiveness.  AOC made a big thing about there not being DNC rules for a mini convention.  No duh, that's why the committee would vote on new rules when it opens!!!!  This happens all the time.  Every day more and more Democratic officials tell Biden to stop.  By the end of the month, it will be overwhelming. 

Indecision and an air of failure continues to haunt this administration.  The secret service comedy act in Butler PA continues to worsen.  The shooter was able to use a drone to view the area, and hid his rifle and maybe a ladder days or hours earlier?  Rumors yes, but the stench of incompetence on Biden is just incredible.  The public's unpopular standing with Biden has been unchanged throughout every poll for three years.  They don't approve of his decision making , age, and capacity.  Yes 14 million Dems cast a vote on basically a one person ballot.  Big deal.  Poll them.  A clear majority want him out. 

Now, the national polls are showing a slight jump for Trump.  State polls still in his favor.  However, the indie consensus for his speech was very poor.  Absurdly long, too nasty, and put ppl off.  This guy remains beatable but unfortunately Democrats have to be unified and they need a gotcha moment like Harris blistering fatso on stage.

I've been consistent on this.  Biden screwed his party and this the nation by running again.  The polls were incredibly bad even two years ago.  Had Trump declined he would have been creamed by Desantis or Haley.  He prevented an open primary of several hopefuls, and made this a smoother and stronger process.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Indecision and an air of failure continues to haunt this administration.  The secret service comedy act in Butler PA continues to worsen.  The shooter was able to use a drone to view the area, and hid his rifle and maybe a ladder days or hours earlier?  Rumors yes, but the stench of incompetence on Biden is just incredible.

Is Biden really the one personally organizing Secret Service protection details and deployments and security checks and personally scanning for drones and snipers and engaging or directly overseeing Secret Service fieldwork... ?

The other anti-Biden stuff is precisely the kind of talk we should expect and welcome in a vibrant democracy. There are no kings in America (yet), there should be no fear to speak opinions to and about power.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/91-mil … 024-07-18/

This makes it seem like there's a chance that some (if not all) of Biden's $91 million could go to a ticket that doesn't involve Harris.  It also implies that there could be some legal ambiguity even if Harris is on the ticket.  But if they can transfer it to the party and then transfer to the new ticket, or if they could refund the money and have people re-donate to the new ticket, that could fill the coffers pretty quickly.  Obviously a refund is assuming that the money will be re-donated (and not kept or, worse, given to Trump).

But more polling has come out that seems to imply that a non-Biden or Harris ticket would have a better chance of winning than Biden or Harris.  And I think Democrats need to put any feelings aside and beat Trump with whatever the best ticket is.  Although two things need to be considered:

- There are whispers that some Democrats are upset about Biden being pushed out.  I assume those people will be upset but still vote for the new ticket?
- What people would be upset about Harris being jumped over (black women? progressives?) and would those people still vote for the new ticket?

*****

I don't know what to make of the news that Trump had a good call with Zelenskyy.  Trump has said that he wants to end the war in Ukraine ASAP, but I don't know what Trump could've told Zelenskyy that would've made him comfortable or happy or optimistic.  Even if he lied, what would the lie have been?  And what kind of deal would Zelenskyy accept from Trump that Biden wouldn't have already considered or offered?  I assume Putin wants some/all of the land that he's already taken back or wanted.

Maybe Zelenskyy is thinking if Trump wins, he's going to be screwed either way and that the deal Trump offered is better than losing everything?  Like if a new boss comes to your work and you expect to be fired and they offer you a slight demotion but you get to keep your job?  It's worse than you had but better than you were expecting?

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

In 2016, Trump visited the White House after his victory and President Obama said he and Trump had had an "excellent conversation" and further declared, "We now are going to want to do everything we can to help you succeed because if you succeed, then the country succeeds." That has, in retrospect, been BS, the outgoing president attempting to maintain some civil line of communication with the person who has the upper hand. Behind closed doors, friends of Obama anonymously shared that Obama called Trump "a bullshitter".

President Zelenskyy is naturally attempting to do the same with someone who may be in a position of power over Zelenskyy next year.

**

Polls are a mess this year, as they were in 2022 and 2020. I think hard to say if Newsom or Whitmer would defeat Trump because, in my view, they aren't very well-known to America on the scale of a presidential campaign (and I say that as someone who devoured Whitmer's fun autobiography TRUE GRETCH yesterday).

Financially and in terms of visibility, Harris is in the best situation, but I have to note that Harris' human resource and management skills are extremely suspect. I'm reading a lot of concerning things about her ability to hire and retain staff. Still, at this point, anyone against Project 2025 whom donors won't abandon is probably the best/only option.

**

No one is happy about ousting Biden from leading their party or keeping Biden at the top of their party. There are no good decisions in this situation, just choices of varying levels of grief and with different and difficult challenges in any direction. No one is happy about turning against Joe as a cold calculation; no one is happy about the challenges of sticking with Joe and the ensuing lack of party and donor support for Joe.

I personally think Joe Biden could, with sufficient donor support, win in November and win big and serve a strong second term. Even if Biden's ability to speak extemporaneously on camera has diminished, his grasp of administration and his team are what produced such a strong and capable presidency despite weak majorities in the House and Senate followed by losing the House. The issue, unfortunately, is that Biden's debate performance was so bad that high dollar donors are no longer willing to commit money towards a Democratic presidential campaign without a different nominee. Without those high dollars, Biden cannot campaign effectively against the Republican campaign.

It makes me feel sad. But being able to speak coherently and off the cuff is a pretty essential capability for an effective campaigner. And this is America we're talking about. People have the right to say they don't want to put their money towards a candidate who has lost their confidence.

If Biden's debate performance had been as passable as his first 2020 debate, we would not be having this conversation. The polls, given how overweighted they are towards conservatism, strike me (and Simon Rosenberg) as showing a close and competitive race that Biden could win if his party and his donors were behind him... and they aren't behind him anymore.

I've learned so much from Joe Biden in four years, watching his campaign, his performance as president, reading his biographies and speeches, and he has so much to offer which is why it's so sad for me to think of him stepping down.

Looking at how Biden's speaking skills have diminished over the last four years, how the rambling but convincing senior of 2020 became the struggling whisperer of 2024 -- my theory -- and it is just a theory:

I think his health has taken a downturn in a subtle but cumulative way since 2022 when Biden at age 79 was infected with COVID-19, followed by a rebound infection. Since then, Biden has had a nagging cough that has never gone away, that clearly gets worse when under strain, that seems to intermittently but frequently affect the volume of his voice and his ability to speak clearly.

There also seem to be frequent moments of fatigue that cause him to lose track when on camera, unscripted, and under pressure. I would posit that the fatigue comes and goes, which is why Biden went into 2023 with the anticipation that he would recover fully in time and leap into a 2024 re-election campaign.

I don't think he ever recovered fully and around March to June 2024, the fatigue began to catch up with him. I think the long-term effects of COVID on an aging body in the most high pressure job in America has had a slow but draining on President Biden's energy and stamina.

In offices, in meetings, in strategy sessions, in all the day to day functions of the presidency, Biden is sharp and capable, sitting in a chair, notes in front of him, advisors informing him. On camera as a performer, however, is where Biden's fatigue siphons energy from his brain and body. He crashed at the debate.

Biden was capable at the NATO press conference. He was moderately capable in an interview with George Stephanopoulos, forceful with Lester Holt, struggling again when responding to Donald Trump getting shot. On camera, with his illness, Biden cannot reliably access the skills that make him a strong diplomat, administrator and leader off camera. It comes and goes and more and more often, it goes.

That's just my theory, of course.

I have hoped that Biden could weather the storm, and maybe he still can, but if he can't -- well, it's the Democratic Party, not the Biden Party. I think the world still needs Joe Biden, but the Biden the world needs might not be President Biden. It might be Ambassador Biden or Advisor to the Secretary of State Biden or Professor Biden or Democratic Campaign Strategist Biden.

2,828 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-07-21 12:36:15)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

We. Are. F*cked.

All because a couple of dumb idiots can't handle a stutter or two - which hasn't changed. I hope you're all happy.

We could have won. We could have won. Enjoy another Trump term...because of Dem infighting, and Dem inability to accept age...there is no time to print enough mail in ballots for a new incumbent to prepare for November. There is no time to get a new incumbent in where we were now. We just lost 2024. And the entire democracy.

Eff all of you age discriminators. You brought this on yourselves. When you're complaining about fascism in 2025, remember, you caused it because you could not unite and accept age.

Make no mistake...I will vote for President Harris. But unless she chooses Pete Buttigieg...forget it. There is not enough on her side to win.

I will be happy to eat my words if I'm wrong. But I just can't see it. Not now. Not after all we have tried to fight for.

Over 14 million votes for President Biden just threw up their arms and quit today. They will never be voting in this election.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ … index.html

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Biden has stood down.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … -2024.html

A few weeks ago, I spoke rather sharply to a certain someone who claimed the election was over, reminding them that the election is in November.

I am not happy that Biden stepped down. I would not have been happy if Biden stayed. There were no good choices here.

Biden quitting or staying doesn't change the facts which is: this is a close and competitive election, as are most presidential elections, and the Democratic Party is the only party right now that is truly committed to representational government elected by the people. We can't stop loving the concept of democracy just because a favourite Democrat has stood down. Democracy isn't Bidenocracy.

Biden has served with honour and now he retires with honour. He chose a vice president who can now step up. He has done well. I salute him.

Today is a sad day, but also one of rebirth and renewal. Joe Biden is a hero. Joe Biden will be remembered as one of the greatest presidents to ever serve the country, applauded for his resolve and his humility.

Thank you, Joe.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Make no mistake...I will vote for President Harris. But unless she chooses Pete Buttigieg...forget it. There is not enough on her side to win.

I mean Harris is basically polling identical to Biden now.  I think some people won't vote for Harris, but I think there are a lot of people that wouldn't vote for Biden.

It's not a stutter.  He looks old.  He sounds old.  And people have lost confidence that he can do the job, not just right now but in four years.  People don't generally look or act younger as time goes on, and this isn't a race about who can do the job right now.

I'm not saying Biden can't win, but he really slipped up on the biggest stage.  And the polling has really dipped in the last month.  I don't know how he was going to convince people that he's not old.  None of the work he did was turning things around, and we were nearing the point of no return.

Harris is young and energetic.  She's a woman who can possibly energize women in the election during an election where women are already at the forefront.  And if she can pick a strong VP, it could be a really good ticket.  There are a bunch of "double haters" of Trump and Biden, and now the Democrats have an alternative for them both.

I'm not discouraged at all.  I'm nervous, but I think we're in better shape right now than we were this morning.  I'm going to be fascinated to see how the polls move now that it's not a hypothetical that Harris will run.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
QuinnSlidr wrote:

Make no mistake...I will vote for President Harris. But unless she chooses Pete Buttigieg...forget it. There is not enough on her side to win.

I mean Harris is basically polling identical to Biden now.  I think some people won't vote for Harris, but I think there are a lot of people that wouldn't vote for Biden.

It's not a stutter.  He looks old.  He sounds old.  And people have lost confidence that he can do the job, not just right now but in four years.  People don't generally look or act younger as time goes on, and this isn't a race about who can do the job right now.

I'm not saying Biden can't win, but he really slipped up on the biggest stage.  And the polling has really dipped in the last month.  I don't know how he was going to convince people that he's not old.  None of the work he did was turning things around, and we were nearing the point of no return.

Harris is young and energetic.  She's a woman who can possibly energize women in the election during an election where women are already at the forefront.  And if she can pick a strong VP, it could be a really good ticket.  There are a bunch of "double haters" of Trump and Biden, and now the Democrats have an alternative for them both.

I'm not discouraged at all.  I'm nervous, but I think we're in better shape right now than we were this morning.  I'm going to be fascinated to see how the polls move now that it's not a hypothetical that Harris will run.

She also has energy over Trump. I can't wait to see both of them in a debate, actually. She will destroy him.

2,832 (edited by ireactions 2024-07-21 13:42:50)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Biden saved our asses in 2020, and I would hazard a guess that he just saved us all again for 2024.

He also saved my friend Kate from crushing student debt.

Joe Biden:

My Fellow Americans,

Over the past three and a half years, we have made great progress as a Nation.

Today, America has the strongest economy in the world. We've made historic investments in rebuilding our Nation, in lowering prescription drug costs for seniors, and in expanding affordable health care to a record number of Americans. We've provided critically needed care to a million veterans exposed to toxic substances. Passed the first gun safety law in 30 years. Appointed the first African American woman to the Supreme Court. And apssed the most significant climate legislation in the history of the world. America has never been better positioned to lead than we are today.

I know none of this could have been done without you, the American people. Together, we overcame a once in a century pandemic and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. We've protected and preserved our Democracy. And we've revitalized and strengthened our alliances around the world.

It has been the greatest honor of my life to serve as your President. And while it has been my intention to seek reelection, I believe it is in the best interest of my party and the country for me to stand down and to focus solely on fulfilling my duties as President for the remainder of my term.

I will speak to the Nation later this week in more detail about my decision.

For now, let me express my deepest gratitude to all those who have worked so hard to see me reelected. I want to thank Vice President Kamala Harris for being an extraordinary partner in all this work. And let me express my heartfelt appreciation to the American people for the faith and trust you have placed in me.

I believe today what I always have: That there is nothing America can't do - when we do it together. We just have to remember we are the United States of America.

Joe Biden:

Today I want to offer my full support and endorsement for Kamala to be the nominee of our party this year. Democrats — it’s time to come together and beat Trump. Let’s do this.

Joe Biden:

Donald Trump. What a sick fuck.

What a fucking asshole the guy is.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/we … s-00139178

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Barack Obama:

Joe Biden has been one of America’s most consequential presidents, as well as a dear friend and partner to me. Today, we’ve also been reminded — again — that he’s a patriot of the highest order.

Sixteen years ago, when I began my search for a vice president, I knew about Joe’s remarkable career in public service. But what I came to admire even more was his character — his deep empathy and hard-earned resilience; his fundamental decency and belief that everyone counts.

Since taking office, President Biden has displayed that character again and again. He helped end the pandemic, created millions of jobs, lowered the cost of prescription drugs, passed the first major piece of gun safety legislation in 30 years, made the biggest investment to address climate change in history, and fought to ensure the rights of working people to organize for fair wages and benefits. Internationally, he restored America’s standing in the world, revitalized NATO, and mobilized the world to stand up against Russian aggression in Ukraine.

More than that, President Biden pointed us away from the four years of chaos, falsehood, and division that had characterized Donald Trump’s administration. Through his policies and his example, Joe has reminded us of who we are at our best — a country committed to old-fashioned values like trust and honesty, kindness and hard work; a country that believes in democracy, rule of law, and accountability; a country that insists that everyone, no matter who they are, has a voice and deserves a chance at a better life.

This outstanding track record gave President Biden every right to run for re-election and finish the job he started. Joe understands better than anyone the stakes in this election — how everything he has fought for throughout his life, and everything that the Democratic Party stands for, will be at risk if we allow Donald Trump back in the White House and give Republicans control of Congress.

I also know Joe has never backed down from a fight. For him to look at the political landscape and decide that he should pass the torch to a new nominee is surely one of the toughest in his life. But I know he wouldn’t make this decision unless he believed it was right for America. It’s a testament to Joe Biden’s love of country — and a historic example of a genuine public servant once again putting the interests of the American people ahead of his own that future generations of leaders will do well to follow.

We will be navigating uncharted waters in the days ahead. But I have extraordinary confidence that the leaders of our party will be able to create a process from which an outstanding nominee emerges. I believe that Joe Biden’s vision of a generous, prosperous, and united America that provides opportunity for everyone will be on full display at the Democratic Convention in August. And I expect that every single one of us are prepared to carry that message of hope and progress forward into November and beyond.

For now, Michelle and I just want to express our love and gratitude to Joe and Jill for leading us so ably and courageously during these perilous times — and for their commitment to the ideals of freedom and equality that this country was founded on.

https://barackobama.medium.com/my-state … b78b3ba3fc

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Kamala Harris:

On behalf of the American people, I thank Joe Biden for his extraordinary leadership as President of the United States and for his decades of service to our country. His remarkable legacy of accomplishment is unmatched in modern American history, surpassing the legacy of many Presidents who have served two terms in office.

It is a profound honor to serve as his Vice President, and I am deeply grateful to the President, Dr. Biden, and the entire Biden family. I first came to know President Biden through his son Beau. We were friends from our days working together as Attorneys General of our home states. As we worked together, Beau would tell me stories about his Dad. The kind of father-and the kind of man-he was. And the qualities Beau revered in his father are the same qualities, the same values, I have seen every single day in Joe's leadership as President: His honesty and integrity. His big heart and commitment to his faith and his family. And his love of our country and the American people.

With this selfless and patriotic act, President Biden is doing what he has done throughout his life of service: putting the American people and our country above everything else.

I am honored to have the President's endorsement and my intention is to earn and win this nomination. Over the past year, I have traveled across the country, talking with Americans about the clear choice in this momentous election. And that is what I will continue to do in the days and weeks ahead. I will do everything in my power to unite the Democratic Party-and unite our nation-to defeat Donald Trump and his extreme Project 2025 agenda.

We have 107 days until Election Day. Together, we will fight. And together, we will win.

https://abc7chicago.com/post/2024-presi … /15078513/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

She also has energy over Trump. I can't wait to see both of them in a debate, actually. She will destroy him.

He's the face of white supremacy.  She's the face of what America could stand for.  If people were looking to turn the page, this is how they do it.

I wonder if her VP pick will be more important than normal years because she herself is going to be such a mystery.  I still say they need to get someone from a swing state.  Maybe Kelly, who has been a hot name.  But I still say Shapiro unless there's something about him I know.  Someone popular in Pennsylvania couldn't hurt

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … ngNewsSerp

One reason to like the switch - Moscow Mike is against it.

2,837

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

She also has energy over Trump. I can't wait to see both of them in a debate, actually. She will destroy him.

I remember her being good in the first primary debate in 2020 when nobody was attacking her, then not so good in the second when Tulsi Gabbard truth bombed her about her prosecutorial record.

With Trump's rambling, she can look good just by being coherent.  One thing that got lost in Biden's awful debate performance was that Trump was plenty bad himself.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Kamala Harris:

I prosecuted sex predators. Trump is one.

I shut down for-profit scam colleges. He ran one.

I held big banks accountable. He's owned by them.

I'm not just prepared to take on Trump.

I'm prepared to beat him.

I hope this doesn't age poorly.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Kamala Harris:

I prosecuted sex predators. Trump is one.

I shut down for-profit scam colleges. He ran one.

I held big banks accountable. He's owned by them.

I'm not just prepared to take on Trump.

I'm prepared to beat him.

I hope this doesn't age poorly.


What aged poorly? All of it is the truth.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

That boast will age poorly if she loses in November.

If she wins, it'll be a factual statement of capability and competence.

I am hoping for the latter.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

In the five hours since Kamala Harris was endorsed by Biden, small donors have contributed $27 million according to ABC Eyewitness News.

2,842 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-21 23:00:39)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Indecision and an air of failure continues to haunt this administration.  The secret service comedy act in Butler PA continues to worsen.  The shooter was able to use a drone to view the area, and hid his rifle and maybe a ladder days or hours earlier?  Rumors yes, but the stench of incompetence on Biden is just incredible.

Is Biden really the one personally organizing Secret Service protection details and deployments and security checks and personally scanning for drones and snipers and engaging or directly overseeing Secret Service fieldwork... ?

The other anti-Biden stuff is precisely the kind of talk we should expect and welcome in a vibrant democracy. There are no kings in America (yet), there should be no fear to speak opinions to and about power.

"The buck stops here."  No, Secret Service has been a mess for a decade.  They are forced to provide security for more and more people, and cannot seem to hire people to keep up.  Not directly his fault, but again, just more egg on his face.

QuinnSlidr wrote:

In the five hours since Kamala Harris was endorsed by Biden, small donors have contributed $27 million according to ABC Eyewitness News.

Most of that was likely what was held back several days ago when big donors had cut off Biden.  Beyond that, Kamala now gets the Biden campaign LLC, which is why she was the only reasonable choice to succeed.  But the fundraising still goes to my point, that the donor class viewed him as a dead end.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/2 … t-00170106

Biden "finally quit" after his closest advisors finally did their jobs and provided actual data.  They've been relying on national polls for months, hiding from how poorly the battleground state polls have gotten.  Virginia and New Mexico were now in doubt, and every other swing state was lost.  Not even Jill could spin that one, and honestly it's weeks late.  Had they been honest with the candidate, he wouldn't have probably strung this along so long. 

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

It's not a stutter.  He looks old.  He sounds old.  And people have lost confidence that he can do the job, not just right now but in four years.  People don't generally look or act younger as time goes on, and this isn't a race about who can do the job right now.

I'm not saying Biden can't win, but he really slipped up on the biggest stage.  And the polling has really dipped in the last month.  I don't know how he was going to convince people that he's not old.  None of the work he did was turning things around, and we were nearing the point of no return.

Harris is young and energetic.  She's a woman who can possibly energize women in the election during an election where women are already at the forefront.  And if she can pick a strong VP, it could be a really good ticket.  There are a bunch of "double haters" of Trump and Biden, and now the Democrats have an alternative for them both.

I'm not discouraged at all.  I'm nervous, but I think we're in better shape right now than we were this morning.  I'm going to be fascinated to see how the polls move now that it's not a hypothetical that Harris will run.

Can Kamala bring this back?  I really don't know.  Every major Democrat, and delegates have quickly backed her.  The party will be united (mostly) by November now.  That was the single biggest reason to oust Biden.  His standing was "solid" compared to Trump among Democrats but nobody else.  Can Kamala convince the morsels who have crumbled to Trump, to reverse course?  Will see, there's not a lot of time.  Biden left a bit of a mangled campaign.  It was losing all over the place, and staffing was slow due to the President's micromanaging.  Kamala has not polled well either.  Status quo says she loses, needs that break out moment, where the script flips back to Trump being the referendum.

I found it hilarious how MAGA world flipped out over this, immediately calling on Biden to resign, which would probably be far more beneficial to Harris.  They're pissed that their walk in the park in November isn't so sure now.  Trump whining about suing Democrats because his Biden ads are now worthless.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Can Kamala convince the morsels who have crumbled to Trump, to reverse course?  Will see, there's not a lot of time.

A lot of people are saying that, but we get information so quickly these days.  The election is in a little over 100 days.  Think back to what was happening 100 days ago in music, movies, TV, etc.  Anything you look at will feel like a million years ago.  I think there's plenty of time to get her some points, but I think the biggest advantage she has is that she's something new.

I'm hoping that undecideds see her as a breath of fresh air.  I hope POC see her as a change of pace against these two old men.  I hope RFK voters jump to her because they were only voting for him because he wasn't Biden or Trump.  We'll see.  Racists and misogynists are going to vote for Trump, but I assume they were voting for Trump anyway.  Polls showed less undecideds than Trump/Biden, but I think that was people showing their cards.  Even then, there were tons of voters that could give Harris the win.

Harris has issues.  But here's the problem - I think they're sorta hard for Trump to exploit.

- Her handling of the border.  It isn't great, but Republicans have been hammering the administration for literally years.  Who are they going to convince who wasn't already convinced?

- Her prosecutorial record.  If anything, the knock on Harris is that she was *too tough* on crime.  Word is that Republicans are thinking about attacking her on her left flank about being too tough on minorities, but that might actually backfire on them.  "She's a prosecutor who was so good that Trump donated to her campaign when she was attorney general of California" is a rough message for Trump to navigate around.

- The whole "sleeping her way to the top" - I don't know how Republicans can attack her on this without further alienating women.

I think the biggest knock is the lack of experience, but she actually has a pretty solid amount of experience.  My hope is that the biggest problem people had with Biden was Biden himself and not necessarily the state of the country.  If she can come out and knock some free publicity out of the park, I think there's a chance she can grab some independents and maybe some Trump voters who were more "anti Biden" than "pro Trump"

She can't have any major gaffes, and she's going to need to essentially become America's sweetheart in the next couple of months.  But if she does, I think she can beat Trump convincingly.

2,844 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-22 10:12:53)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Her task will be to duck the bad things (from Biden record), and highlight the good things.  Maximilian Arturo....for mayor.  Seriously, it's really not much more complicated than that.  The border and inflation will be a issue for her, same as Biden.  For those who view those as major issues, she's already sunk. 

The "she's too tough prosecutor" stuff was also a joke.  She put a lot of POC behind bars, well too damn bad, they were criminals, and not simply "weed smokers" as Tulsi Gabbard whined about.  Trump is a criminal.  Which is it?  You can win with the Twitter morons. 

The worst idiocy comes from the Twitter-sphere who bitched nonstop about Biden's health being covered up, and now claim this is just a DNC plot to subvert the electorate, because Kamala received no votes in the primaries.  Well if Biden suddenly died of natural causes, would we still require an open primary?  That's pure nonsense.  First of all, NOBODY will step forward to challenge her, it's a losing cause.  Democrats don't respect democracy?  People don't believe this crap.  They have enough common sense to see it for what it is.  Biden was losing, a good portion relating to his fitness, and he stepped aside, doing the patriotic and honorable thing.  he didn't CLING to power like a mad king.  His successor was literally that, she has experience and easily plugs into the campaign apparatus.  This is not democratic???  Non-super Delegates are not locked in for most states, then technically can choose whoever they want.  Like the Electoral College.  It's called representation morons.  You elect representatives to multiple level of government all the time.  They may shockingly vote against your wishes.

PS: Secret Service director Cheattle currently being grilled on Capitol Hill.  Even Democrats like Ro Khanna are demanding she resign, citing how the director during Reagan's shooting promptly resigned.  For the good of VP Harris, the President should demand this fool resign!

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Her task will be to duck the bad things (from Biden record), and highlight the good things.  Maximilian Arturo....for mayor.  Seriously, it's really not much more complicated than that.  The border and inflation will be a issue for her, same as Biden.  For those who view those as major issues, she's already sunk.

I mean, it won't all translate for everyone.  Some people might think that Harris somehow did something to cause inflation or make the border less safe, but I think most people know that the VP isn't in charge of policy.  If they can convince people that Harris is/was tough on crime, that could translate to the border.  I think she should be able to separate herself from Biden's decision making since they're two people and he was her boss.  Now that she's the boss (potentially), she'd do XYZ differently.  We know people can make that separation because there were people that voted for Obama that now hate Biden. 

The "she's too tough prosecutor" stuff was also a joke.  She put a lot of POC behind bars, well too damn bad, they were criminals, and not simply "weed smokers" as Tulsi Gabbard whined about.  Trump is a criminal.  Which is it?  You can win with the Twitter morons.

Yeah, I'm not saying it will work, but that's a common complaint against her.  I just don't know how Republicans use "she's too tough on crime" as a criticism while also saying she's letting murderers and rapists into the country at the border.  Is she tough on crime or isn't she?  I would think that they would just leave that alone, but I read this morning  that Trump's team is going to try and attack her left flank on that issue.  We'll see if it works.

I'm not saying that she can't be attacked.  Trump has taken down more seasoned politicians.  If there are people that are Republicans, they probably won't vote for her.  If there are people that are unhappy with the direction of the country, they probably won't vote for her.  If they don't like her race or gender, they probably won't vote for her.

But the people that were simply worried about Biden will probably give her a chance.  The people that don't like Biden or Trump will probably give her a chance.  The people that were voting for RFK will probably give her a chance.  Anyone that was voting for Biden will give her a chance.  Those are more than enough votes for her to win the electoral college.

2,846

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm not saying that she can't be attacked. Trump has taken down more seasoned politicians.  If there are people that are Republicans, they probably won't vote for her.  If there are people that are unhappy with the direction of the country, they probably won't vote for her.  If they don't like her race or gender, they probably won't vote for her.

Those idiots got taken down because they were inauthentic, and were afraid of Trump.  Harris may have some authenticity issues, but that's really on her.  She's not afraid of Trump.  She ought to come right out and project how she did during Senate confirmation hearings on Trump's cabinet.  Take no prisoners with him.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

But the people that were simply worried about Biden will probably give her a chance.  The people that don't like Biden or Trump will probably give her a chance.  The people that were voting for RFK will probably give her a chance.  Anyone that was voting for Biden will give her a chance.  Those are more than enough votes for her to win the electoral college.

What people?  Very few will actually bother to cast a vote for that whacko.  There is STILL a real % of people who will make their decision around Labor Day.  That's who she needs to win back.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

What people?  Very few will actually bother to cast a vote for that whacko.  There is STILL a real % of people who will make their decision around Labor Day.  That's who she needs to win back.

He's at 8.7% nationally.  If those polls are wrong, then all the polls are wrong.  People say they will vote for him, but since no one *has* voted for him, all of them are technically up for grabs.  What I've been saying all along is that you can break up RFK voters into two distinct groups that appear (according to the data) to be equal size

- People that legitimately like RFK for whatever reason.  Maybe it's the anti-vax stuff.  Maybe it's whatever else he's into.  Maybe they really like Joe Rogan and stuff like that.

- People that are literally only picking the name "Kennedy" because they like the Kennedys or because that's an actual person on the ballot who isn't named Biden or Trump. 

The Democrats have been actively working on the former, but now there's another name for the Democrats that isn't Biden or Trump.  If those people, seeking *literally any alternative*, switch to Harris and that number is anywhere near 2-4%, then Harris takes a lead nationally and enough votes to get the electoral college.

What ireactions and the people he's read have said is that Trump has a high floor but he also has a low ceiling.  Enough people have been permanently turned off Trump that he's not going to run away with anything.  He wasn't going to run away with it even when Biden was in.  Enough people would vote for a carrot over him that he was never going to win in any kind of landslide.

Even in the best polls for Trump, he very rarely gets a true majority (over 50%) and there's usually at least 10-15% of people that are undecided.  Are those people who were going to wait to the last minute, hold their breath, and vote for Trump?  Were they going to wait until the last minute, hold their nose, and vote for Biden?  Or were they going to wait until the last minute, apologize to the ghost of George Washington, and not vote?  In any of those three cases, Kamala Harris has a chance to win their vote.

Her biggest hope is that either she can win them over or that they're so tired of Trump and Biden that they'll literally vote for anyone else.  If they want their vote to matter, that's Harris.  If they just want to throw their vote away in protest, that doesn't necessarily hurt either party more than the other.  And I guess the good news is that Harris actually has two shots.  Maybe Harris isn't enough to turn the tide, but is the VP choice?  Historically it doesn't matter enough to change the race, but does it matter to enough Pennsylvanians?  Enough Wisconsinites?  Enough Michiganders?  If so, that's enough to win.

"Yeah, I don't love Harris but I love Shapiro/Bashear/Kelly/Warnock/etc"

That's the plan at least.  I think it's an okay plan, and we'll start to see how the polls change (if they do at all) in the next couple weeks.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The Bulwark has been calling for Joe Biden's head for the last three and a half weeks, screeching that Biden should have stepped down days/weeks/a month/a year ago. But today, they herald him as a patriot and a hero for having the strength to give his power back, for rescuing us from Donald Trump four years ago, for choosing criminal prosecutor Kamala Harris as his VP in 2020, and for deploying VP Harris against Trump now.

They also declare that Biden's timing was perfect: he stepped down after the Trump campaign had committed their funds and solidified their plans with an anti-Biden strategy to campaign against Biden's age and incoherence only to discover the agedly incoherent candidate is the Republican nominee.

The Bulwark: Joe Biden is Greatest Living President
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/joe-biden- … est-living

Indeed, the Republicans seem to be having nervous breakdowns over Donald Trump now facing down Kamala Harris. Trump wants to withdraw from the September presidential debate, fearing Kamala Harris:
https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-sho … rcna163003

Trump is furious that his anti-Biden spending was all against a candidate who isn't running.
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-r … is-1928235

Mike Johnson wants to sue Democrats to keep Biden the nominee (good luck with that since Biden had yet to be nominated):
https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-ho … rcna163013

These are just three examples of how Republicans fear Kamala Harris the way home invaders fear Batman. These are the rantings of a losing, flailing, failing campaign, a team horrified that Harris as the mere presumptive nominee has led to $81 million raised in a day:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cxx2d25l634o

Biden's public speaking skills may have degenerated, but in his closing act, his grasp of political strategy remained peerless.

Now, I remember feeling this cocky and confident about Hillary Clinton in 2016, so I am cautious and guarded. Simon Rosenberg says we will not truly know where Democrats are until Harris chooses a VP and we get some post-running mate polls. But for the moment, the future looks bright.

From Kamala Harris: The Future is Now
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/kamala-har … ure-is-now

Successful campaigns have deceptively simple rationales:

Reagan 1984: It’s morning in America.

Clinton 1992: Change versus more of the same.

Obama 2008: Hope.

Trump 2016: I will hurt the people you hate.

What is the rationale for a Whitmer or Shapiro campaign? It doesn’t exist beyond: I’m a popular governor in a must-win state.

The only Democrat who has a compelling rationale—right now—is Kamala Harris.

What is it?

Kamala Harris: The future is now.

The Harris campaign should be insurgent, not incumbent. She should run against everything from the recent past: Against the fractions, broken promises, and lingering hatreds of the Obama years. Against the revanchism of the Trump years. And against the weariness of the Biden years.

Her rationale is that she is the candidate to turn the page on all of it. If you are sick and tired of the last decade of politics, Harris is the candidate to wipe the slate and begin anew.

“The Future Is Now” implicitly acknowledges the break-glass-in-case-of-emergency nature of her nomination. It aggressively puts COVID and January 6th and inflation in the rearview mirror.

Kamala Harris is the candidate who can say, “We are tired of fighting about vaccines and the insurrection and Trump’s crimes. Together, we will make a clean break from all of that and start a wholly new era.”

Harris is a credible messenger for this pitch because she is a black woman who is a generation younger than Trump and Biden. She embodies change from the status quo. But simultaneously, she has enough experience to play as tested. She’s been a senator and a vice president. Her candidacy does not ask voters to take a chance on a young, untested quantity.

Properly positioned, Harris doesn’t ask voters to merely vote against Trump, because she frames all of Trump’s problems both as dangers and as emerging from the bowels of history.

Trump becomes both a danger and the incumbent from a despised period in the past.

2,849 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-07-22 20:12:16)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

And she's just getting started....

Harris has support of enough Democratic delegates to become party’s presidential nominee: AP survey

https://apnews.com/article/harris-biden … 4fe61a73e9

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I think if Trump withdraws from the debate, it helps Harris.  I think MAGA would love it and represent it as "refusing to debate an illegitimate candidate" or something, but I think independents, undecideds, and even Trump-leaners would like to see them debate.  If he pulls out for anything other than a very legitimate reason, he's going to look like a coward who was only willing to debate an 82-year-old man.

Is that enough to hurt him electorally?  I don't know.  But it would definitely ding him.

I think Harris would be extremely well prepared and could talk circles around Trump, but Trump debates aren't really debates.  So I don't really see a lot of negative for Trump deciding to debate her.  The format doesn't allow him to ramble, and that's the biggest potentially negative thing that could happen to him in a debate.  But he didn't debate anyone in the primary, and I don't think he'll debate her.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump has already withdrawn from the debate....the guy is terrified of Harris....

"The Republican candidate said he would no longer take part in a TV debate scheduled for September."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics … den-campa/

2,852

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

What people?  Very few will actually bother to cast a vote for that whacko.  There is STILL a real % of people who will make their decision around Labor Day.  That's who she needs to win back.

He's at 8.7% nationally.  If those polls are wrong, then all the polls are wrong.  People say they will vote for him, but since no one *has* voted for him, all of them are technically up for grabs.  What I've been saying all along is that you can break up RFK voters into two distinct groups that appear (according to the data) to be equal size

- People that legitimately like RFK for whatever reason.  Maybe it's the anti-vax stuff.  Maybe it's whatever else he's into.  Maybe they really like Joe Rogan and stuff like that.

- People that are literally only picking the name "Kennedy" because they like the Kennedys or because that's an actual person on the ballot who isn't named Biden or Trump.

RFK Jr. is not getting anywhere near 8-9% in November.  A good chuck of his 8-9% simply won't vote, making that number irrelevant.  Furthermore, RFK Jr. is NOT on that many state ballots.  Trump has weighed striking a deal with him, but I really don't think he wants him anywhere near his administration.  Trump knows a crazy phony when he sees one.  RFK is way too similar to Trump, I suspect a good deal of his support will simply vote for Trump, where he's not on the ballot.  Technically that is not good news for Democrats. 

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Trump has already withdrawn from the debate....the guy is terrified of Harris....

"The Republican candidate said he would no longer take part in a TV debate scheduled for September."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics … den-campa/

He's done nothing officially.  He'll be there, because if not, his entire "God's Impregnable Warrior" horse crap goes up in smoke.  He had no problem debating Hilary, name calling and lying the entire time.  Hilary won every debate, still lost the election.

ireactions wrote:

The Bulwark has been calling for Joe Biden's head for the last three and a half weeks, screeching that Biden should have stepped down days/weeks/a month/a year ago. But today, they herald him as a patriot and a hero for having the strength to give his power back, for rescuing us from Donald Trump four years ago, for choosing criminal prosecutor Kamala Harris as his VP in 2020, and for deploying VP Harris against Trump now.

They also declare that Biden's timing was perfect: he stepped down after the Trump campaign had committed their funds and solidified their plans with an anti-Biden strategy to campaign against Biden's age and incoherence only to discover the agedly incoherent candidate is the Republican nominee.

Trump is furious that his anti-Biden spending was all against a candidate who isn't running.

Mike Johnson wants to sue Democrats to keep Biden the nominee (good luck with that since Biden had yet to be nominated):

Now, I remember feeling this cocky and confident about Hillary Clinton in 2016, so I am cautious and guarded. Simon Rosenberg says we will not truly know where Democrats are until Harris chooses a VP and we get some post-running mate polls. But for the moment, the future looks bright.

First off, Bulwark are not a news organization, or a political think tank, they are a for-profit opinion site.  So whatever they write, the motivation is to get you to read it.  Also, they failed to defeat Trump on their turf.  Never Trump land has been consistent though, they have wanted Biden to take a bow.  That was very difficult for Joe to do, as a lame duck would have gotten nothing passed in Congress.  I also felt he was veering off particularly in 2024.  Inadvertently, yes, Trump has somewhat wasted a lot of money attacking Biden.  It technically worked, ha ha ha, he dropped out!  Idiots.  Trump will have tons of money to spend, his fundraising will not slow down.  More on that last....

Mike Johnson is an idiot, you cannot challenge a ballot which hasn't even been PRINTED yet. 

As for Hilary's 2016, really tough to compare the two.  Different landscapes.  Trump was not as hated as he is now.  Hilary pissed a LOT of factions off, Bernie Bro's, even Obama supporters, over the years.  Bill screwed up multiple times in that campaign.  Kamala does not have that kind of baggage.

Finally, I have read that Trump campaign has NOT spent on the ground game.  Instead, they are spending and organizing on an infrastructure to challenge vote counting, certification, the works.  They don't care what the results are, if he's losing, they will make 2020 look like Cinderella.

2,853 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-07-23 10:57:23)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:
Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

He's done nothing officially.  He'll be there, because if not, his entire "God's Impregnable Warrior" horse crap goes up in smoke.  He had no problem debating Hilary, name calling and lying the entire time.  Hilary won every debate, still lost the election.

Need I remind folks that Hillary won the popular vote, and thus should have won the election. Despite the fraud that is the BS electoral college.

The electoral college needs to be abolished.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

Finally, I have read that Trump campaign has NOT spent on the ground game.  Instead, they are spending and organizing on an infrastructure to challenge vote counting, certification, the works.  They don't care what the results are, if he's losing, they will make 2020 look like Cinderella.

This is why I wasn't comfortable with Biden staying in the race.  I think his *ceiling* was 270-268.  And that could've been impacted by nonsense happening on election day, mail-in ballots being stolen/destroyed, or any number of things.  And that's before the election would be called and Trump's real work would begin.

I think Harris has a higher ceiling.  Maybe she picks Kelly and they can win Arizona.  Or Cooper and win North Carolina.  Either way, she needs to win the entire blue wall and then pick up at least one or two sun belt states so Trump can flip a state post-election (thanks to all the MAGA people he's put in state legislatures, secretaries of state, etc, and the judiciary) and the result can still stand.  I believe Trump can absolutely figure out a way to flip one state, but I think he'd struggle to flip much more than that even with the infrastructure he has. 

But like 2020, this needs to be not only a win but a convincing-enough win that Trump can't get it overturned.  And I think Harris can do that - I wasn't convinced Biden could.

Really hoping Harris can energize young voters, voters of color, and third party voters.

2,855 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-07-23 11:42:02)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Finally, I have read that Trump campaign has NOT spent on the ground game.  Instead, they are spending and organizing on an infrastructure to challenge vote counting, certification, the works.  They don't care what the results are, if he's losing, they will make 2020 look like Cinderella.

This is why I wasn't comfortable with Biden staying in the race.  I think his *ceiling* was 270-268.  And that could've been impacted by nonsense happening on election day, mail-in ballots being stolen/destroyed, or any number of things.  And that's before the election would be called and Trump's real work would begin.

I think Harris has a higher ceiling.  Maybe she picks Kelly and they can win Arizona.  Or Cooper and win North Carolina.  Either way, she needs to win the entire blue wall and then pick up at least one or two sun belt states so Trump can flip a state post-election (thanks to all the MAGA people he's put in state legislatures, secretaries of state, etc, and the judiciary) and the result can still stand.  I believe Trump can absolutely figure out a way to flip one state, but I think he'd struggle to flip much more than that even with the infrastructure he has. 

But like 2020, this needs to be not only a win but a convincing-enough win that Trump can't get it overturned.  And I think Harris can do that - I wasn't convinced Biden could.

Really hoping Harris can energize young voters, voters of color, and third party voters.

Considering the news of 94% of the democratic party rallying around Harris, that should be no problem. There is excitement for the democratic party in this election that hasn't been seen since 2016. In addition, I have seen more than one instance of hard right wing voters completely flipping from voting for Trump to voting for Harris.

2,856 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-23 11:48:42)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I just don't think a running mate gets you anything these days.  Only can harm.  Choose someone with experience who can take over day one. 

Hilary barely won the popular vote.  She figured it was over and went on cruise, plus focusing way too much on "social" causes instead of economics.  Trump went all over blaring about them.  And Comey's letter reinforced a widely held perception that she and Bill were far too deceptive.  Awful candidate.

Kamala doesn't need pie in the sky slogans.  Has to directly come after Trump like Elliott Ness going after Capone.

2,857 (edited by QuinnSlidr 2024-07-23 12:17:46)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

I just don't think a running mate gets you anything these days.  Only can harm.  Choose someone with experience who can take over day one. 

Hilary barely won the popular vote.  She figured it was over and went on cruise, plus focusing way too much on "social" causes instead of economics.  Trump went all over blaring about them.  And Comey's letter reinforced a widely held perception that she and Bill were far too deceptive.  Awful candidate.

Kamala doesn't need pie in the sky slogans.  Has to directly come after Trump like Elliott Ness going after Capone.

"Barely" is incorrect. Hillary won the popular vote by 2.9 million votes.

Something wrong with that picture when 2.9 million votes more than Trump (Hitler) doesn't get you the Presidency. That's why the electoral college must be abolished.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

I just don't think a running mate gets you anything these days.  Only can harm.  Choose someone with experience who can take over day one.

Historically it doesn't really matter.  However, I think in this instance where the candidate is relatively unknown (at this point, the presidential candidate has at least been through a primary), I think voters might take the VP into account.  Shapiro beats Trump in Pennsylvania head on - I gotta think at least a couple thousand people might vote for her if he's on the ticket. 

But you're right in the sense that Harris needs to win the votes.  The VP is just there for an extra nudge for some people.

2,859

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

I just don't think a running mate gets you anything these days.  Only can harm.  Choose someone with experience who can take over day one. 

Hilary barely won the popular vote.  She figured it was over and went on cruise, plus focusing way too much on "social" causes instead of economics.  Trump went all over blaring about them.  And Comey's letter reinforced a widely held perception that she and Bill were far too deceptive.  Awful candidate.

Kamala doesn't need pie in the sky slogans.  Has to directly come after Trump like Elliott Ness going after Capone.

"Barely" is incorrect. Hillary won the popular vote by 2.9 million votes.

Something wrong with that picture when 2.9 million votes more than Trump (Hitler) doesn't get you the Presidency. That's why the electoral college must be abolished.

The E.C. isn't going anywhere, not in this lifetime.  Hilary won by 2%, which was not enough.  Biden's 3.5% was barely enough.  It's all about where the votes come from.  The problem Democrats have this time is that the Sun Belt states have gone way into the Trump column, lessening the path to 270.  Harris is automatically -6 from 2020 out of the gate, due to population shifts.  She'll be forced to focus on the Rust Belt, and shoring up Virginia, if there's to be ANY chance.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

I just don't think a running mate gets you anything these days.  Only can harm.  Choose someone with experience who can take over day one.

Historically it doesn't really matter.  However, I think in this instance where the candidate is relatively unknown (at this point, the presidential candidate has at least been through a primary), I think voters might take the VP into account.  Shapiro beats Trump in Pennsylvania head on - I gotta think at least a couple thousand people might vote for her if he's on the ticket. 

But you're right in the sense that Harris needs to win the votes.  The VP is just there for an extra nudge for some people.

These days, you want the "best partner" in a running mate.  The goal is to pick someone who will compliment and back you up, once you're in office.  That's why Trump picked some lackey. 

Reuters Ipsos poll out today, has Harris and Trump effectively tied, in a TWO way choice, with RV's.  Kennedy takes twice as many away from Trump than Harris, which lends credence to my point. 

https://elections2024.thehill.com/proje … s-tracker/

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Bulwark are not a news organization, or a political think tank, they are a for-profit opinion site.  So whatever they write, the motivation is to get you to read it. Also, they failed to defeat Trump on their turf.

This description could apply to any newspaper, website, think tank, magazine or cereal box. I hardly think any one person is responsible for Republicans becoming the party of Trump, but the people who left the party in disgust are not failures.

Anyone with the intellectual capacity to interrogate their previous beliefs and communities and turn away from a cult of fascism is truly exceptional. They demonstrate a clear cognitive edge over, say, people who operate on clickbait, assumptions, personal prejudices, brags, boasts, and self-important predictions over events with a 50-50 outcome. Whatever their faults, they at least have the sense not to get triggered into screeching, "The election is over!" at every headline that troubles them. That's better than a lot of people.

Regardless of provenance, the editorials presented in The Bulwark offer extremely interesting ideas and at times contradictory views for how to (re)build and maintain a healthy democracy of representational government.

Interesting ideas for enriching the American Dream of truth, justice and a better tomorrow can come from lots of different places. Even David Peckinpah had great new ideas for SLIDERS. If anything, it was his laziness preventing him from up with more great ideas and his preference for old movie ripoffs over new ideas that tripped him up creatively.

**

Simon Rosenberg says a VP pick matters before reviewing polls. I'm not sure he's right. But since he is an expert analyst who knows his stuff (as opposed to a clickbait skimmer or some random typing up his thoughts on a message board for a TV show from 1995), I am going to defer to him.

**

Will Trump debate VP Harris? I have no idea; he might keep far away or he may get desperate for attention or a polling boost and show up. Anyone who makes a definitive claim about Trump debating or declining is making an assertion based on assumption. If they're not wrong, it's not because they were prescient; it's because they had a 50-50 chance of being right.

Trump is not a planner, and even his insecurity will steer him towards confrontation to bolster his ego as often as it will send him cowering at a safe distance.

**

I don't know that the popular vote/electoral vote is really anything more than an interesting data point. It's a fact, but it's also a fact that has had no effect on who actually becomes president.

2,861 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-23 18:09:14)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Bulwark, Hopeium they're pundits.  It's like watching an NFL pre-game and believing that the panel's game picks will change the outcome.  Lawrence O'Donnell, who I watch often, essentially claimed Joe Biden was going to win, and didn't need to retire.  They're friends, I get it, he's being rah-rah.  Unfortunately, he ignored every data-based metric staring him in the face. 

The Democratic Party's Senate campaign (DSCC) had its best two-days of the entire cycle following the VP's promotion.

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2 … g-00170635

I will credit Repubs against Trump, Bulwark, etc, for beating the drum to have Biden moved off.  That said, they didn't want Harris, not at all.  They're Republicans!  Yes it is totally honorable that so many of them moved off the GOP train when MAGA took the wheel.  However, let's not forget this group backed George W. Bush.  I have been with them in regards to defending democracy, here as well as in places like Ukraine.  They have backed off chastising typical Dem issues, and taken a pragmatic approach.  Clearly they, and I'll be the first one to admit, myself, did not expect such immediate and universal strength behind VP Harris.  Her speeches have been to the point, and authentic, and she herself seems to be overtly enthusiastic and confident. 

In fact, polls are quickly showing that typical Democratic blocks like the yutes and lower middle class/urban support has instantly returned to pre-2023 levels.  Biden was so unwanted by those voters.  They're back, and the Congressional campaigns are going to benefit from that.  Her first event in Wisconsin drew 3,000 and forced a venue change and many were turned away.  Biden was drawing basically no one.  They have very little time now, the messaging has to be concise.  The public will often be getting it's first taste of Kamala Harris in the coming weeks.  Her initial appearances have been very confident as I said, so much so that people like me who came in totally unsure about her potential, are infectious with essentially what I have been screaming about for months....a CHANCE.  There's a chance now, quite possibly a damn good one.  Defeatism has had a 180, in just one weekend.

Trump HAS agreed to debate, possibly multiple times, while again whining about ABC.

2,862 (edited by ireactions 2024-07-23 19:59:47)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I will credit Repubs against Trump, Bulwark, etc, for beating the drum to have Biden moved off.  That said, they didn't want Harris, not at all.  They're Republicans!

What a baffling comment when I have, in this very thread, posted two Bulwark editorials on why Kamala Harris is a winning proposition in 2024. Voicing unchallenged assumptions and biases rather than facts tend to lead to baffling comments.

Kamala Harris: The Future is Now
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/kamala-har … ure-is-now

Madame President Kamala Harris
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/president-kamala-harris

Both were written after the debate but before Biden stepped down. I am not an unreserved fan of The Bulwark, but these are interesting pieces.

**

I read Politico, The Bulwark, Simon Rosenberg's Hopium Chronicles, The Hill, Slate, Vox, MSNBC, Axios and Informant's Twitter (before it went dark) and Joe Biden's social media. I think of them as my teachers.

Politico and Axios have an absurd insistence on presenting Donald Trump as a legitimate political leader instead of a madman. It is appalling. The Bulwark's anti-abortion stance and disdain for women making their own medical decisions is repellent. Simon Rosenberg is hesitant and often says a lot while saying nothing because he's waiting for more facts but wants to blog 5 - 7 times a week.

Slate and Vox's editorials often throw out opinions before they have all the facts. MSNBC's Biden cheerleading makes me unable to take their assertions very seriously. Informant was an extremist, a bioterrorist, an insurrectionist and a liar. Joe Biden has a messy record (but after five decades in politics, who wouldn't?).

No teacher is perfect. Who is the greatest teacher of all time?

I think that the most significant and consequential teacher for everyone here is Professor Maximillian Arturo, cosmology and ontology at the University of California, Berkeley.

I think it is pretty obvious that Professor Arturo was a deeply flawed teacher with tremendous insecurity, a chip on his shoulder, a self-important attitude, an ego that was completely out of control, a fuming jealousy towards anyone who knew something he didn't. He also has the mildly incurable handicap of being fictional. That has never stopped any of us from learning from him and appreciating the lessons that came from his intellect, curiosity, analysis and determination while setting aside the flawed outputs of his self-aggrandizement and arrogance.

I don't need someone to be perfect in order to learn from them. I just need them to articulate why they think what they think so that I can evaluate what I can adopt into my own mind and what I can set aside.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

In fact, polls are quickly showing that typical Democratic blocks like the yutes and lower middle class/urban support has instantly returned to pre-2023 levels.  Biden was so unwanted by those voters.  They're back, and the Congressional campaigns are going to benefit from that.  Her first event in Wisconsin drew 3,000 and forced a venue change and many were turned away.  Biden was drawing basically no one.  They have very little time now, the messaging has to be concise.  The public will often be getting it's first taste of Kamala Harris in the coming weeks.  Her initial appearances have been very confident as I said, so much so that people like me who came in totally unsure about her potential, are infectious with essentially what I have been screaming about for months....a CHANCE.  There's a chance now, quite possibly a damn good one.  Defeatism has had a 180, in just one weekend.

Yeah, I think it's a breath of fresh air.  I think as long as Harris continues to be confident, avoids a major gaffe, and picks a solid VP (Kelly or Shapiro - NOT Mayor Pete as much as I like him), she might be able to ride a wave of positive enthusiasm before anyone even realizes they like her or not.

Because I think she's likeable.  I think she sounds genuine and speaks like a leader.  And while the Democrats only have a short time to build her up, the Republicans only have a short time to tear her down.  Sure, they can tie her to Biden but a lot of those people were voting Trump anyway.  Harris doesn't need to take too many Trump voters away - she mainly just needs to claim more undecideds than him.  They are attacking her on the border, but that was something they were already hammering Biden on.  Who is going to be convinced not to vote for her on the border who wasn't already not voting for Biden on the border.

I'm just saying, other than racist or sexist dog whistles, what can they attack her on that they haven't already attacked Biden on?  Meanwhile, Republicans are now offended that people are talking about Trump's age.  Now he's the old and crazy one.  Harris is young and NEW.

It's still an uphill climb, but it feels so much better today than it did a week ago.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

The current tactic from Republicans: they want to sue the Democratic Party to force Joe Biden onto the ballot. They're sinking millions into this maneuver. I don't know why. It isn't going to work. They can't sue a political party to nominate a candidate who has stepped down.
https://www.salon.com/2024/07/23/illegi … out-obama/

2,865

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Because I think she's likeable.  I think she sounds genuine and speaks like a leader.  And while the Democrats only have a short time to build her up, the Republicans only have a short time to tear her down.  Sure, they can tie her to Biden but a lot of those people were voting Trump anyway.  Harris doesn't need to take too many Trump voters away - she mainly just needs to claim more undecideds than him.  They are attacking her on the border, but that was something they were already hammering Biden on.  Who is going to be convinced not to vote for her on the border who wasn't already not voting for Biden on the border.

I'm not sure how "likeable" Kamala will wind up being.  Not sure it matters.  I will say this, have you EVER seen/heard a President and Vice President telling each other "I love you" as they did during that Wilmington campaign office appearance?  They meant it.  This obviously is a Biden facet, but Democrats are feeling and broadcasting this love fest.

ireactions wrote:

The current tactic from Republicans: they want to sue the Democratic Party to force Joe Biden onto the ballot. They're sinking millions into this maneuver. I don't know why. It isn't going to work. They can't sue a political party to nominate a candidate who has stepped down.
https://www.salon.com/2024/07/23/illegi … out-obama/

I noted before, Trump's team IS spending massively on post-election maneuvers.  This is something "new" as related to that, but won't go anywhere.  The Gov. of Ohio already stopped them from keeping Biden off months ago.  However, they have spent the last 4 years positioning MAGA meatheads in key roles in state and county governments.  Winning on November 5th outright is Plan A.  Plan B is succeeding where they failed in 2020, but contesting EVERY ballot, every count, every polling station, every certification. 

Republicans are also threatening to sue Harris and Biden to stop her from using Biden's $91.5 million dollar war chest.  Since the FEC is highly unlikely to stop the changeover in funding.  They are SCREAMING about Democrats stealing the election which last week they said was over!

2,866

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

PS: how long with lifeless JD Vance remain on the ticket???  Some claim that Trump took him on, because Elon Musk and Peter Thiel pledged tens of millions of dollars per month to the Trump campaign.  Well Musk already backtracked on that, babbling about creating a Trump PAC.  HA HA HA HA HA!  Was Trump just swindled?  Vance's favorability ratings are putrid.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Trump (Hitler) is officially done. He might as well drop out now while he still has some pride left.

https://www.threads.net/@authentic.voic … AE9idcpfkQ

https://i.postimg.cc/ncKnRWmX/image.png

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Be careful about presuming victory. The election is in November, not July.

I still cringe at my 2016 confidence and will never live it down.

**

I am really going to miss those joyfully ridiculous Dark Brandon memes.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Be careful about presuming victory. The election is in November, not July.

I still cringe at my 2016 confidence and will never live it down.

**

I am really going to miss those joyfully ridiculous Dark Brandon memes.


Indeed. Some of that was hyperbole. Actually. My confidence in 2016 was probably worse.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Grizzlor wrote:

I'm not sure how "likeable" Kamala will wind up being.  Not sure it matters.  I will say this, have you EVER seen/heard a President and Vice President telling each other "I love you" as they did during that Wilmington campaign office appearance?  They meant it.  This obviously is a Biden facet, but Democrats are feeling and broadcasting this love fest.

I just mean if you watch the campaign videos that she's been releasing, she comes across as warm and friendly.  It seems genuine without being too soft.  I think it's a good first impression.  If people don't see a whole lot more than that, it might be enough to sway some people who flat out don't like Trump but thought Biden was way too old.

I don't know how likeable she actually is, but I think, so far, she's coming off as likeable.

2,871 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-24 10:15:18)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Be careful about presuming victory. The election is in November, not July.

I still cringe at my 2016 confidence and will never live it down.

That's precisely why I have phrased this ticket change as providing a new start.  Harris/Trump are statistically tied nationally, which unfortunately, is NOT where you want to be as a Democratic candidate.  As QSldr has lamented, the electoral college is weighted pro-GOP, and population shifts in the last census were even worse in that regard.  Harris IMO still has a ton of Biden baggage, and frankly, she's been on the record being far to the left of him on issues like Gaza and immigration. 

If you follow soccer, you're surely heard of an "own goal."  The GOP have been deflecting into their own net almost by the hour over the last week.  Claiming Kamala "slept her way to the top," was a "DEI hire," or organized both a cabal to hide Biden's delirium AND finished off a "coup" to knock him off the ballot and install her.  The conspiracies are both disreputable and grotesque to which swing voters are now seeing two images.  One is Kamala having a ball and expressing confidence and unity.  The other is a shameful slew of ignorance.  Just wait until she gets to read off the charges against Trump, and the numerous blunders he made while in office, not to mention how everyone that worked in his cabinet are against his run.

Will all of that be enough?  Maybe, maybe not.  I still argue that the majority of RFK JR. are Trump-like voters.  Then you have the lightly engaged undecided people, and the # of those who lean left and were sick of Biden has shrunk to the minimum.  I really feel as if she can get those people to vote.   That really just leaves the Trump 16 Biden 20 grouping.  Many have swung back to Trump, can't help that.  The rest are where Kamala's team needs to break back into.  They have NOT registered as decided in polling and they hate Trump.  They grew disillusioned with Biden.  The focus has to be on turning out the left, and making those who were appalled at January 6th REMEMBER how bad that was, and that they are needed to patriotically defuse another bomb.  Biden was a lost cause for both groups.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

QuinnSlidr wrote:

Trump (Hitler) is officially done. He might as well drop out now while he still has some pride left.

https://www.threads.net/@authentic.voic … AE9idcpfkQ

https://i.postimg.cc/ncKnRWmX/image.png

This might not be true.  As far as I'm aware, Swift hasn't endorsed anyone or scheduled anything benefitting Harris.  I've been eagerly following that since Swift's endorsement actually has the ability to shift the race.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

It's a little early, but some of the state-level polling for Harris looks pretty good.  Winning in Wisconsin, essentially tied in Michigan, and within the margin of error in Pennsylvania.  Within striking distance in Georgia and Nevada.  Arizona still looks out of play, but maybe if they pick Kelly, that could change.

But that's very encouraging.  Trump's internal team sent out a memo that said to expect some sort of "honeymoon phase" with Harris that would improve her polling.  Funny thing is that Trump's polling is also up post-shooting and post-convention so Harris was basically able to match that, and she hasn't had the convention yet.

Now she's going to have to nail these rallies and her convention speech and the debate.  There's still a lot of work to do.  But a couple of weeks ago, we were absolutely trending towards a Trump win.  Now, there's a decent shot for Harris to win the blue wall and maybe another state or two to pad a win.  Which is absolutely what the country needs.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

It's a little early, but some of the state-level polling for Harris looks pretty good.  Winning in Wisconsin, essentially tied in Michigan, and within the margin of error in Pennsylvania.  Within striking distance in Georgia and Nevada.  Arizona still looks out of play, but maybe if they pick Kelly, that could change.

But that's very encouraging.  Trump's internal team sent out a memo that said to expect some sort of "honeymoon phase" with Harris that would improve her polling.  Funny thing is that Trump's polling is also up post-shooting and post-convention so Harris was basically able to match that, and she hasn't had the convention yet.

Now she's going to have to nail these rallies and her convention speech and the debate.  There's still a lot of work to do.  But a couple of weeks ago, we were absolutely trending towards a Trump win.  Now, there's a decent shot for Harris to win the blue wall and maybe another state or two to pad a win.  Which is absolutely what the country needs.

She is flipping Trumpers - hard right Trumpers.

I think we're going to see something different this election. I'm cautiously optimistic to make sure not to make my own mistake of too much optimism a la 2016. But the excitement of the democratic party right now I think has surpassed 2016 levels.

2,875 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-07-25 10:37:26)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Biden's campaign was a bit of a mess, but I don't know if it was a bit of a mess because they were trying to keep Joe from being out in public too much.  But Harris is everywhere now.  She's literally the ad on every YouTube video I see, and that wasn't the case before (when I got ads, it was Obama).  I know that's not going to be everyone's situation, but she's definitely out there campaigning more than Biden was, and that's great.  I hope now that they have a young and energetic candidate (who doesn't have to also run the free world), that this campaign will be a lot more dynamic.

I also love the outpouring of support for Biden for doing the right thing and putting country over ego.  I think this will cement his legacy as a great president and a great American.  I really hope Harris wins for about a billion reasons, but one of those reasons is that I think it closes the book on Biden in a way that will just be fantastic.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

LOL. Now the right is trying to get people to cancel Netflix because Reed Hastings has donated $7 million to Kamala Harris.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ … 235956558/

2,877 (edited by Grizzlor 2024-07-25 22:01:43)

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Kamala Harris has already WON the running mate sweepstakes before even making a selection!

JD Vance is HATED in the core region of the Big Ten Conference.

https://twitter.com/ForecasterEnten/sta … 5972673795

This is brilliant

https://twitter.com/MilOnYourMind/statu … 0290856070

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

Vance certainly feels like a bad pick considering his unpopularity and his lack of electoral help. Of course, there were tons of people that would help (especially women), but Trump doesn't care about any of that.  Either because of narcissism or sycophants, he thinks the election is in the bag, and he just wants a yes man who won't overshadow him.  That's Vance.

I don't know if it will matter electorally, but there are definitely a number of people who are on the fence about Trump.  And Vance might tip just enough of them to not vote, vote 3rd party, or vote for Harris.

Between that and him attacking women, it hasn't really gone well.  Especially when there were a number of Republican women that could've balanced him out.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

ireactions wrote:

Will Trump debate VP Harris? I have no idea; he might keep far away or he may get desperate for attention or a polling boost and show up. Anyone who makes a definitive claim about Trump debating or declining is making an assertion based on assumption. If they're not wrong, it's not because they were prescient; it's because they had a 50-50 chance of being right.

Trump is not a planner, and even his insecurity will steer him towards confrontation to bolster his ego as often as it will send him cowering at a safe distance.

A Certain Someone wrote:

Trump HAS agreed to debate, possibly multiple times, while again whining about ABC.

Yes, and now his campaign manager is refusing to commit to that.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p … 235068484/

He's in, he's out, he's in, he's out -- until he actually shows up, his claims are meaningless, as are claims based on assumptions and personal biases over facts.

Re: American Politics: Discuss and Debate

I recognize we are on an upswing in the news cycle.

Please remember that there are dark days ahead. It's always easy to keep working at democracy when you feel like you're winning. It's being able to work for it even when you feel like you're losing that matters. The honeymoon with Kamala Harris can't last forever. We have a lot we need to do.