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Yes, George Lucas in a sense, wrote the EASY part, in the original trilogy, where the Jedi were dead.  Obi-Wan and even Yoda taught Luke very little.  Then he had to expound on that, but in the prequels, the Jedi were largely an "honor guard" for the Republic which was duped into wars, and then betrayed and taken over by Palpatine in a coup.  There's many historical allegories, and George is a history buff. 

What's happened since is another story.  No. George would not have approved at all.  Why?  Because his final contributions were the Dave Filoni-led Clone Wars and Rebels shows.  They portrayed Jedi very honorably, but also difficult to become.  Even the "underworld" HBO series that never got off the ground, wouldn't have cast the Jedi in a negative light.  Filoni's shows have not been very good, but I still felt that Mandalorian/Boba Fett/Ahsoka have largely followed George's inputs.  Andor is Jedi-less, but focuses on the sinister nature of The Empire.  GL would approve. 

Everything else that has been done lately, whether in the sequels, or on Disney Plus, are not what Lucas would have preferred, at all.  They've also been putrid.  The Acolyte is atrocious.  But this is the path Kathleen has chosen.

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Well, The Acolyte was canceled.  This has set off a wave of social media criticism from its defenders, who accuse Disney of silencing "people of color, women, LBGTQ, etc." from the body of Star Wars.  Yet again, what those folks fail to comprehend is that diversity and equity does not by itself mean success.  The actors and production staff on the series, who I felt were all top notch, were failed by the horrendous writing.  That comes directly from the top, where showrunner/creator Leslye Headland deserves full blame for producing such a disjointed pile of dung.  Frankly, I think the cancelation proves that good intentions cannot overcome bad results, especially when you spend $180 million to lay such a critical egg.  This comes on the tail of a string of really terrible story telling, and direction from Disney + on this franchise.  Obi-Wan, Mandalorian/Boba-Fett, and Ahsoka all featured tremendous characters that were muddied by increasingly slow-moving, vapid, and boring episodes, painfully stretched out to meet an artificial episode count.

303 (edited by ireactions 2024-08-21 19:15:23)

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I haven't really been in the mood to watch STAR WARS on TV, but I'm sorry that any show gets cancelled. The reviews for THE ACOLYTE on Den of Geek, a review site I enjoy, were poor to middling.

**

The Jedi being incompetent failures didn't originate in the Disney era, but in the prequel era, and George Lucas is absolutely responsible for that. I'm not sure if Lucas' authorial intent was to present them so, but note that in THE PHANTOM MENACE, Qui-Gon Jinn doesn't think it's his job to free slaves; in ATTACK OF THE CLONES, the Jedi somehow miss the Republic becoming a fascist empire and Anakin didn't bother to free his enslaved mother for at least a decade (and he still left the slave trade intact). In REVENGE OF THE SITH, Anakin becomes evil because... something or other about how he loved his wife and Jedi aren't supposed to have feelings.

If Jedi can't free slaves, they are useless. I don't know if that's the take Lucas intended, but he wrote it and he filmed it.

In THE LAST JEDI, Luke notes: "Now that they're extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if your strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris. At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader." He's not wrong.

The entire arc seems subconscious on Lucas' part: the great love of Lucas' life was Marcia Lou Griffin, whom he met in film school and adored and married. She was a film editor and script consultant; Lucas was a good director and awkward screenwriter, and STAR WARS came alive with Marcia (and uncredited screenwriters Gloria and Willard Hyuck) adding life and joy to Lucas' plot and setpieces.

Shortly before THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, Lucas became obsessed with building up his own film studio and business. Lucas' devotion to Skywalker Ranch, Industrial Light and Magic, THX, Skywalker Sound while producing EMPIRE, RETURN OF THE JEDI and the Indiana Jones movies created entire industries -- but his interaction with his wife became near non-existent, and he dismissed her pleas that they spend more time together.

Despite this, Lucas claims he was shocked when Marcia told him she wanted a divorce and that she had fallen in love with someone else... and he responded by asking Marcia to wait until after the release of RETURN before proceeding with the divorce.

After Marcia left him, Lucas went on a long hiatus from filmmaking, obsessing over filmmaking technology over actually making films. THE PHANTOM MENACE is a pretty clear display of how Lucas creates when his ex-wife isn't there as a creative partner. ATTACK OF THE CLONES and REVENGE OF THE SITH show Anakin Skywalker foolishly daring to fall in love and destroyed by having feelings at which point he becomes a technological monster.

Lucas portrays Jedi in the prequels as distant, disengaged, oblivious, defeated by emotions, betrayed by romance, and the most prominent Jedi becomes a destroyed man in a shell of sci-fi armour. That strikes me as an accidental yet incredibly telling self-portrait.

Who would the Jedi be if Lucas had decided to drop THX and ILM from his repertoire and devote that time to his marriage, and if he'd written the prequels with Marcia Lucas as his creative partner and the heart of STAR WARS?

Re: Star Wars: Movies and Shows on Disney+ and More

Yeah, I struggle with trying to figure out the right metaphor for the Jedi.  One I come up with is the police.  I think individual policemen can be good, but the police as a whole can be bogged down by systemic problems, bad apples, too much power, etc.

In the Acolyte, the Jedi decide to investigate these murders.  A podcaster I like thought it might be fun if he partnered up with a "space detective" and figured out what happened.  A sort of private eye who specializes in seeing things that no one else sees.  Instead, the Jedi just do it themselves.  Why would they rely on an expert when the Jedi are experts at everything.  Need a peacekeeper?  Jedi.  Detective?  Jedi.  Scholar?  Philosopher?  General?  Monk?  Leader?  Jedi.

And it's sorta like the police.  If you need a soldier or a protector or a social worker or just an adult, people call the police.  They're good at some things, but they're not good at everything.  And when we ask them to be everything, that's when things get out of hand.

But that's a fairly new metaphor so it can't be what Lucas intended.  I wonder if Lucas just accidentally wrote the Jedi as inept.  Or if he just thought of it as destiny and the Jedi's ineptness made the story easier.  Maybe he thinks even if the Jedi were on top of things, Palpatine still would've won.

********

I do wonder if there was a better way to tell the story of the Jedi that fits better with the Original Trilogy.  I wonder if the Jedi should've faded away on their own.  Like if less and less children displayed abilities in the Force.  Or if the Jedi just slowly went away because they weren't needed.  I'm picturing a scenario where the Jedi were mythical figures even when Obi-Wan was young.  What if they'd mostly already died out by the time Anakin showed up, and maybe the plan was for him to bring the Jedi back.  Maybe there were just a handful of Jedi acting in secret, and then the betrayal makes more sense.  And Han saying he didn't believe in the Force makes sense because it'd mostly died out by then.

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I'm not sure.

One thing that occurred to me: a lot of Lucas' work in the 1990s was trying to make money. Lucasarts. ILM. The re-releases of the trilogy. The Special Editions. The reason Lucas did all that: he was wounded both emotionally and financially by how Marcia Lucas divorced him and took half his money. Lucas did not feel Marcia had done half the work. He was trying to rebuild the half of his fortune that he had lost to his ex-wife.

I would venture to say she did a vital quarter as his creative partner and another quarter as his long-suffering wife. The Jedi falling prey to emotional connections (ugh, right?) and being devastated by someone on the inside who turned against them is also an accidental self-portrait of how Lucas felt betrayed by his wife who left him half of who he was before both financially and creatively. That surprising betrayal (for Lucas) is represented in how he made the Jedi inept.

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Yeah, I think it's an important question to ask since I feel like that's the most important question for Star Wars to answer.  It seems like Rey is going to start a new Jedi, but I don't see how her new approach would be any more or less successful.  What did she learn in the sequels?  That Jedi should be able to love?  Would Jedi being able to love have done anything?  If Anakin and Padme were openly married in the prequels, I think Palpatine would've manipulated Anakin the exact same way.  She wouldn't be any less of a pull on him, and he wouldn't be any less worried that she would die.

To me, the Jedi thought they were the best person for every job, but that wasn't really the reason they fell.  I think the reason they fell was that they underestimated Sidious.  They knew about him in the Phantom Menace and, unless I'm missing something, never really looked for him.  They would go after him if there was an opportunity, but I would think finding Sidious would've been their top priority.  Mace Windu and a group of Jedi Knights should've been out in the galaxy looking for him.

I get that he's hiding and it would be difficult to find him.  But it doesn't seem like the Jedi even tried.  Sidious had a great plan, and he executed it.  I don't know if any of the issues that Luke or Rey or even Dooku had with the Jedi would've fixed that.

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I'll try not to spoil anything, but the gist of The Acolyte's problems are just simply far worse than what has plagued 2/3 of the live action Disney+ Star Wars offerings.  Ignore the concepts, it's all about the execution.  The Acolyte was maybe the most poorly executed genre series I have ever watched, and goodness I've seen some bad ones.  Having Jedi who lie or stray from the strict teachings, cover things up, and get screwed for it, not a stretch.  Presenting a story for how that plus other factors could lead impressionable "good" people to the dark side, again, not a stretch.  From the outside or the 10000 foot view, seems very acceptable to that franchise.

Where it went wrong was simply in what the viewer actually had to see and hear, and as the season wore on, painfully struggle through.  These kinds of stories are not unique to Star Wars, they are as old as the Bible after all.  They should not be difficult to write, and interweave into a specific plot.  And yet, the writing and directing team on this show managed to take what should have been a very simple story, and turn it into utter nonsense.  From start to finish, and it does do quite a bit of time shifting, the motivations of the characters seem to shift moment by moment, with little explanation.  Worse, they present a number of new and interesting characters, who unfortunately, don't make it out of the season.  Huge mistakes on their parts.  Plot holes everywhere.  Then you have the intentional retconning and defecating on franchise canon for no reason at all.  It became comical. 

Worse yet, so to film segments featuring well known actors effectively mimicking scenes from their prior work.  Inexcusable to have Carrie Ann Moss, who's incredible talent was wasted, doing a fight scene essentially as Trinity was absurd.  I instantly thought of John Rhys-Davies' annoyance with the shameless rip off of The Last Crusade's invisible bridge during Into the Mystic.  Just brutal.  I will say though that at least The Acolyte, as stupid as it was played out, was not without energy and excitement at times, a far cry from the dreadfully dull and disappointing Ahsoka.

308 (edited by ireactions 2024-08-24 08:18:14)

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I'm sorry it wasn't good for Grizzlor. I'd be curious to know what Slider_Quinn21 thought and if he feels the series is incomplete now cancelled.

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

To me, the Jedi thought they were the best person for every job, but that wasn't really the reason they fell.  I think the reason they fell was that they underestimated Sidious.  They knew about him in the Phantom Menace and, unless I'm missing something, never really looked for him.  They would go after him if there was an opportunity, but I would think finding Sidious would've been their top priority.  Mace Windu and a group of Jedi Knights should've been out in the galaxy looking for him.

I get that he's hiding and it would be difficult to find him.  But it doesn't seem like the Jedi even tried.  Sidious had a great plan, and he executed it.  I don't know if any of the issues that Luke or Rey or even Dooku had with the Jedi would've fixed that.

I've sometimes wondered if STAR WARS will pull a bit of a retcon on the prequel-Jedi the way ENTERPRISE featured Vulcans as unpleasant, dour, miserable, unsupportive, and kind of useless, declaring the superiority and supremacy of their logic and increasingly isolationist attitudes-- only for a new showrunner in the fourth season to reveal that the Vulcans of Seasons 1 - 3 had been dealing with generational trauma and a pandemic with a mentally transmitted disease.

The situational, cultural and political strife had been worsened by how the original teachings of Surak, the Vulcan philosopher whose teachings of logic over emotion became the driving force of Vulcan society, had been distorted and misunderstood due to the loss of his guiding principle of infinite diversity in infinite combinations, a key tenet that balances logic with compassion and respect for all living things and cultures even if they do not devote themselves to logic.

Captain Archer restores Surak's full teachings to Vulcan society, setting the path for the Vulcans to become the open-minded and caring but emotionally aloof friends of the original STAR TREK series. I wonder if the Rey movie can maybe delve into how the failed, useless Jedi of the prequels were operating on a distorted foundation and rediscover the actual origins of the Jedi and the true role they can play in the galaxy.

My personal opinion on why the Jedi failed from an in-universe perspective: the Old Republic era Council and Luke's Jedi school were way too militarized. When you teach people that the Force is all about hacking and slashing away at armies to win wars, it creates a breeding ground for dark side tendencies because combat-first emphasizes power and dominance over compassion and empathy.

Ideally, Jedi training would be about Force sensitivity and applying that Force sensitivity to a profession or passion which does not have to be combat. In AIRBENDER, not every earth/fire/air/earth bender is a soldier: some of them run restaurants or build dams or transport or plumbing. The Jedi Council and Luke's approach to Jedi was to create supersoldiers, never creating any super-therapists or super-construction workers or super-doctors.

I recognize that as the franchise is called STAR WARS, screenwriters and directors will gravitate to combat, but if STAR WARS wants to present the Jedi as competent, then one path may be that the Jedi become less of an army and portrayed as an unintrusive religion where Jedi apply the Force in many areas of life and fighting is just one profession among many for Force users and maybe the term Jedi is broadened so it's not just warriors.

Rian Johnson offered a bit of a path to that in THE LAST JEDI: "The Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies -- it's vanity, can't you feel that?" I might suggest we say that the Force does not belong to Jedi soldiers.

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The fan-produced 4K80 release is now out on specialist fan preservation sites. It's a 4K digital scan of the theatrical cut of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, made from a 35mm print and a 16mm print, cleaned up by fans to assemble the best versions of both prints and address the faded colour and recreate how it looked in cinemas in 1980.  https://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/project-4k80/

I've looked at the first version and it looks just like the non-special VHS version I remember in the 90s, authentic but dirty and with grain so high in some scenes it's like static baked into the frame. Other scenes have a natural level of grain. It looks like a medium quality 720p image (because a theatrical film print is several generations removed from the original negative).

While this is a theatrical print scan, the movie did not actually look this grainy in movie theatres in 1980. I wasn't there in 1980, but I know that the movie theatres of the era created a softer film image due to the film protector light being scattered when passing through film and then impacting the screen. This would have added a sheen that diminished the grain. In contrast, modern backlit displays on home HDTVs form a pixel-based image with black borders around each pixel that have the result of sharpening any and all grain.

I think 4K80 would be releasable on Disney+ if the video were downscaled to a sharper 1080p image and then run through AI grain filtering to tone down the grain. Then an AI algorithm could add a modest amount of grain back to each shot. The entire movie would then have a consistent level of AI-overlaid but natural looking film grain. If it's consistent, it's easy to get used to whereas the noise becomes distracting if some scenes look static-coated and others look clear.

Admittedly, for streaming services, grain is the first thing to be removed from digital files and then a grain texture is added back on during playback as an overlay.

I've downscaled the file to 1080p and I'm going to run it through Topaz AI grain refinement just to get the grain consistent. Then I will pass it along to my niece as the version of EMPIRE that her father probably saw in theatres. I had previously passed along to her a version of the DESPECIALIZED EDTION for EMPIRE (a fan-created hybrid of blu-ray footage and upscaled DVDs).

DESPECIALIZED looked okay at 720p, but on modern 4K TVs, it was looking very low-resolution for a lot of the DVD-sourced footage. I ran it through a Topaz AI upscale to boost it to a somewhat sharper 1080p, but 4K80 will look more consistent. Where DESPECIALIZED looks super-sharp in the blu-ray sourced scenes and slightly blurry in the DVD-sourced scenes, 4K80 looks moderately sharp throughout the entire film and the AI cleanup will also make it moderately grainy throughout as well. That said, I'm sure the film editors at Disney could do an even better job by going at it shot by shot.

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Oh cool, I have been meaning to get ahold of the TN1 stuff for awhile now.  IMO those are vastly superior to the earlier work (which I have) that sourced Bluray and DVD.  Now that they have found film, each time more complete, the work is better and more authentic.  I cannot describe the disgust the repeated Lucas mutilations have caused me, ha ha ha.  Frankly, of all the re-added scenes in the OT, maybe the only one I felt "added" to any of them was the Biggs/Luke embrace prior to the Battle of Yavin in the first movie.  Every other addition or change was putrid, and should never have been made.

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ireactions wrote:

I'm sorry it wasn't good for Grizzlor. I'd be curious to know what Slider_Quinn21 thought and if he feels the series is incomplete now cancelled.

Eh.  I didn't love the Acolyte.  I certainly didn't hate it as much as so many other people did.  I watch a ton of stuff and most of it isn't great, but I guess I just have a low threshold for something that is enjoyable and entertaining.  I mean I've watched every single episode of everything show the Walking Dead has spit out.  I hate watch stuff, I watch stuff while I'm working, and I occasionally watch stuff with so little of my attention that I have to go find a recap to figure out what I just spent forty minutes "watching." 

But I thought the Acolyte had a good storyline.  I already brought up what felt like a weird thing regarding the Jedi and how they're portrayed, but I thought the story was engaging.  It presented the Jedi as people who are generally trying to do good in the galaxy but some people got in over their heads...and are now facing consequences.  Some of the "twists" were dumb, and it wasn't anything groundbreaking but it was watchable I thought.  But, again, I might have a lower threshold than most.

Am I torn up that there's not more?  I don't think so.  I thought the story concluded pretty well.  I don't necessarily think the story was over, but I don't think there was a huge need for it to keep going.  I'm not torn up that it's not coming back.  Just like I'm cool with Obi-Wan being done or something like Moon Knight not getting a season two.

I do feel bad for all the people involved who were seemingly ruined before they even got the chance.  Star Wars fans have gotten so toxic.

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ireactions wrote:

The fan-produced 4K80 release is now out on specialist fan preservation sites. It's a 4K digital scan of the theatrical cut of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, made from a 35mm print and a 16mm print, cleaned up by fans to assemble the best versions of both prints and address the faded colour and recreate how it looked in cinemas in 1980.  https://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/project-4k80/

I've looked at the first version and it looks just like the non-special VHS version I remember in the 90s, authentic but dirty and with grain so high in some scenes it's like static baked into the frame. Other scenes have a natural level of grain. It looks like a medium quality 720p image (because a theatrical film print is several generations removed from the original negative).

Grizzlor wrote:
Oh cool, I have been meaning to get ahold of the TN1 stuff for awhile now.  IMO those are vastly superior to the earlier work (which I have) that sourced Bluray and DVD.  Now that they have found film, each time more complete, the work is better and more authentic.  I cannot describe the disgust the repeated Lucas mutilations have caused me, ha ha ha.  Frankly, of all the re-added scenes in the OT, maybe the only one I felt "added" to any of them was the Biggs/Luke embrace prior to the Battle of Yavin in the first movie.  Every other addition or change was putrid, and should never have been made.

Well, I ran two upscales on the 4K80 THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK for a 1080p output with AI grain refinement, not to remove it, just to get it consistent. And... hmm. My first attempt set the grain reduction to mild, but it left too much of the grain intact and seemed to make no difference.

The second one, I set the DNR more aggressively, and removed so much grain that there was an unpleasant waxy quality to it that the overlaid AI grain couldn't do the job of offsetting the smoothness.  James Cameron would love it since he re-released TRUE LIES looking like this, but I found it untenable.

I'm now running a third attempt where after removing the almost static-like levels of noise, the replacement AI grain will be 50 percent larger than my last effort.

4K80 is very authentic, but the DESPECIALIZED versions of the movies have some advantages. They are 720p files made from integrating upscaled DVD footage back into the blu-ray via recutting and rotoscoping. They looked fine on a 32 inch 720p screen. But they look very bad on on a 55 inch 4K screen: the blu-ray footage looks razor sharp; the upscaled DVD sequences look muddy and blocky.

Before 4K80 (but after STAR WARS and RETURN OF THE JEDI had been restored via theatrical prints), I ran the DESPECIALIZED EMPIRE through Topaz to upscale it to 1080p and created a pretty consistent level of smooth and sharp throughout, and I used this for the second film in my STAR WARS collection.

4K80, however, doesn't look as crisp, obviously because it's a theatrical print and not a blu-ray drawn from the  original master negative. DESPECIALIZED if upscaled from 720p to 1080p, is always going to look a lot sharper for the blu-ray sourced segments and a little smoother for the DVD sections. In comparison, 4K80 will be rough and grainy and my AI scaling will only make it slightly smoother and get the grain consistent so as not to be distracting.

DESPECIALIZED upscaled to 1080p is probably the most 'modern' looking version while the AI-DNRed print scans are more 'authentic', but they are a bit of a step down in terms of basic image quality.

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But doesn't despecialized still use footage which was digitally enhanced?  I want something that has been cleaned up but I do NOT want even minimal stuff like painting glowing engines on X-wings.

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I'm not entirely sure what you are asking.

The DESPECIALIZED versions took the blu-ray version and downscaled it from 1080p to 720p, and upscaled the DVD release of the theatrical versions to 720p. Wherever the blu-ray had a effect, it was replaced with the DVD version rotoscoped out of the DVD version and on top of the blu-ray version. Some of the theatrical material from the DVD version was then further replaced with material from theatrical prints or frames or photographs of matte paintings. The original transitions were recreated, and the fan editor attempted to restore the original lighting and colour. If there were matte lines and such painted out of the blu-ray version, they were added back in the DESPECIALIZED version.

I can't swear that all SPECIAL EDITION additions have been rotoscoped or replaced in DESPECIALIZED, but I'm betting that 99 percent of them are gone.

At the time, with 720p televisions, DESPECIALIZED looked pretty good, and the upscaled DVD footage seemed to blend well with the blu-ray content. Today, the 720p versions of DESPECIALIZED films look very odd on modern 4K screens: the upscaled DVD content is severely mismatched to the blu-ray. I replaced the DESPECIALIZED versions of STAR WARS and RETURN OF THE JEDI with the 4K77 and 4K83 versions, which are not as blu-ray sharp as DESPECIALIZED, but are more consistent throughout in video quality.

Before the 4K80 version of EMPIRE was finished, I upscaled the DEPSPECIALIZED version of EMPIRE from 720p to 1080p. This smoothed out the mismatches in DVD and blu-ray by adding a slight AI smooth-sharpening while adding AI grain to be consistent. This upscaled version of the DESPECIALIZED 720p EMPIRE is actually a bit clearer and sharper than the 4K80 version, which is a digital scan of a theatrical print.

However, the theatrical print scan is, despite being less sharp and heavily grainy, still very adequate for 4K display, and more authentic. And I just want to run some AI digital noise reduction on it -- not to remove the grain entirely, just to make it consistent across the whole film so I can get used to it, not noticing it intensifying or diminishing, and focus on the story.

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What I am getting at is that even this rotoscoping you're mentioning, I don't want that either.  I want the original cuts, as they were printed for theaters.  Yes, you want to clean them up solely to restore the image, nothing more.  There was a time when I kinda went, yeah, lets spruce those up with new tech and effects, because ILM was lacking or behind schedule.  However, I've gotten to the point now, well awhile ago in fact, that is actually what I do NOT want.  Adding stuff in that wasn't there, especially stuff that wasn't shot, is a bridge too far.  You are welcome to do that, as a director, but at least give us the originals!

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Grizzlor wrote:

What I am getting at is that even this rotoscoping you're mentioning, I don't want that either.

If you don't want DESPECIALIZED to use rotoscoping, I'm not sure how you expect DESPECIALIZED to even exist.

Rotoscoping: a technique usually used by animators use to trace over live action footage, creating an outline around a visual element. Used in animation, the outline can be used for an illustration. Used in film compositing, the visual element within the outline can be copied, and then placed on a different piece of footage.

Rotoscoping effects in the DESPECIALIZED editions: This refers to drawing an outline around a special effect from the theatrical version of a film (from DVD or a theatrical film print). The effect is copied. The effect is then placed over the blu-ray version of the footage to cover the SPECIAL EDITION effect with the theatrical version of the effect.

Rotoscoping is the means by which the DESPECIALIZED editions were created. If you don't want the blu-ray SPECIAL EDITIONS and you don't want DESPECIAIZED using rotoscoping to put the original effects back in place, what do you want DESPECIALIZED to do and why were you interested in it at all?

That said, I'm shifting away from DESPECIALIZED. It was great when first released, but I think I'm happier with digital scans of theatrical prints. Those scans were years away from being released when DESPECIALIZED first hit the internet.

DESPECIALIZED, because it starts with the blu-rays, may be as sharper in most scenes, but the sourced-from-DVD or print material doesn't match the rest of it. You sometimes get an HD Luke against an SD matte painting, or HD interiors of X-Wing fighter pilots intercut with SD exteriors of the X-Wings themselves.

Digital scans of film prints, while a little softer, are consistent throughout. Of course, a lot of people may prefer DESPECIALIZED because they find the hyper grainy look of the digital scans more distracting than DESPECIALIZED being a bit schizophrenic in sharpness. I personally decided to run the digital scans through an AI grain normalization process -- not to remove the grain, just to make it the same in one scene as it is in all others.

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ireactions wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

What I am getting at is that even this rotoscoping you're mentioning, I don't want that either.

If you don't want DESPECIALIZED to use rotoscoping, I'm not sure how you expect DESPECIALIZED to even exist.

Digital scans of film prints, while a little softer, are consistent throughout. Of course, a lot of people may prefer DESPECIALIZED because they find the hyper grainy look of the digital scans more distracting than DESPECIALIZED being a bit schizophrenic in sharpness. I personally decided to run the digital scans through an AI grain normalization process -- not to remove the grain, just to make it the same in one scene as it is in all others.

Yes, that's entirely my point!  Despecialized was fine when there was nothing else.  Now that actual prints can be made presentable, there's no need for it.  Star Wars had to be one of the few if only films which were rebuilt in that way, as a result of Lucas's hacking up the originals.  With other films, you find an original and just restore it.

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My suspicion is that 80 - 90 percent of viewers would choose DESPECIALIZED over the digital print scans because DESPECIALIZED is mostly sharp and looks mostly modern while the scans are grainy, noisy, and also not as sharp. I'm basing this on how RussianCabbie prefers the hypersaturated version of BACK TO THE FUTURE over the more authentic desaturated version because RussianCabbie, in my view, has extremely normal, mainstream preferences for video quality.

I personally am not a DESPECIALIZED person, but I think I'm in the minority.

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After some review... I'm forced to conclude that an upscaled from 720p to 1080p DESPECIALIZED EMPIRE is preferable to 4K80 EMPIRE, at least for me.

The 4K project was very fortunate in finding some solid theatrical prints of STAR WARS and a fantastic one of RETURN. What they found for EMPIRE, however, is really dirty, flickery and grainy and has an uncomfortably faded, slightly fuzzy quality even under the graininess and even after all the cleanup.

DESPECIALIZED, being based on the blu-ray, doesn't have that issue. The DEPSECIALIZED EMPIRE, as reconstructions go, doesn't really have that much to DESPECIALIZE. The majority of the new special effects were in the new shots of the Hoth monster (which the fan editor simply cut) and the new effects in Cloud City which the editor restored. That and other small restorations (getting the lightsabers to be the right colour, adding back matte lines) were all that was really needed since the SPECIAL EDITION added so little to EMPIRE.

I would probably stick with DESPECIALIZED for EMPIRE. Since it was a 720p file upscaled to 1080p for consistency with me, it doesn't even look that different from the soft but clear versions of 4K77 STAR WARS and 4K83 RETURN OF THE JEDI, as the AI upscale softened the DESPECIALIZED EMPIRE.

Re: Star Wars: Movies and Shows on Disney+ and More

A better print could emerge at some point.  I would definitely agree that most consumers would want the most technologically assisted/aided version.

Re: Star Wars: Movies and Shows on Disney+ and More

After looking at the material, I do not think that finding and scanning theatrical prints of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is a good use of anyone's time or effort.

The only reason to locate and scan a print of this nature is to restore the 1980 theatrical cut. But unlike STAR WARS and RETURN OF THE JEDI, the blu-ray version of EMPIRE is very easily returned to its original version. EMPIRE had very few changes made.

The very few non-HD shots and effects that need to be reinstated to the blu-ray version, even if sourced from low-resolution DVD, are easily matched to the blu-ray footage because those effects were mostly in motion, looked more painterly than photorealistic, and the upscaling blur isn't going to make them seem out of place.

The changes made to STAR WARS and RETURN OF THE JEDI were harder to undo: restoring the original versions of Tatooine, Mos Eisley, the Death Star and the final battle required a lot of cross-sourcing to rebuild it. RETURN, while having more isolated changes, had so many key shots altered or replaced in Jabba's palace and the Ewok celebration that a DESPECIALIZED version has to use a lot of mismatched SD and HD material and fade back and forth between them, sometimes in the same shot.

But EMPIRE doesn't have that mismatch problem. Most of the missing HD material is meant to be blurred by motion or due to being a matte painting. A high quality theatrical print of EMPIRE would not look very different from the DESPECIALIZED version.

The only real issue with the DESPECIALIZED version of EMPIRE is that it was made in 720p, largely because the upscaled DVD footage didn't scale well to 1080p, and even modern AI upscaling has addressed that gap; a 1080p upscale of EMPIRE looks as good as the denoised theatrical print scan of STAR WARS.

I don't think EMPIRE will benefit from finding any more prints to scan.