Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Jim_Hall wrote:
ireactions wrote:

Thanks for sharing that, but the Pilot is not really an effective test case. The pilot episode was edited either on film or high resolution analog videotape. It already looked sharp and crisp because it was not subject to the blurriness and field mismatching issues of episodes 1.02 - 1.08 being on low resolution tape. Upscaling the pilot episode is shooting fish in a barrel for any upscaler whether AI or a simple bicubic scaler. A real test case would be a scene from the unusually hazy "Last Days" or "Luck of the Draw" with its blurriness and film judder.

I just tried a Luck of the Draw clip. It's pretty bad. One thing about Video AI is it has helped me notice things I never had. Objects, people in the distance, etc. I'll go to my grave believing everything was shot on film, minus the special effects.

I don't think the analog videotape stored episodes of SLIDERS are going to be effective for image sharpening. Any restoration for those episodes likely has to be via generating new image frames by redrawing them entirely rather than upscaling them.

I don't know why you need to go to your grave believing it was shot on film. Of course it was shot on film. If it were shot on videotape, there would be no field mismatches from the telecining and frame conversion and no film judder. I don't think SLIDERS being shot on film is any kind of controversial conspiracy theory.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:
Jim_Hall wrote:
ireactions wrote:

Thanks for sharing that, but the Pilot is not really an effective test case. The pilot episode was edited either on film or high resolution analog videotape. It already looked sharp and crisp because it was not subject to the blurriness and field mismatching issues of episodes 1.02 - 1.08 being on low resolution tape. Upscaling the pilot episode is shooting fish in a barrel for any upscaler whether AI or a simple bicubic scaler. A real test case would be a scene from the unusually hazy "Last Days" or "Luck of the Draw" with its blurriness and film judder.

I just tried a Luck of the Draw clip. It's pretty bad. One thing about Video AI is it has helped me notice things I never had. Objects, people in the distance, etc. I'll go to my grave believing everything was shot on film, minus the special effects.

I don't think the analog videotape stored episodes of SLIDERS are going to be effective for image sharpening. Any restoration for those episodes likely has to be via generating new image frames by redrawing them entirely rather than upscaling them.

I don't know why you need to go to your grave believing it was shot on film. Of course it was shot on film. If it were shot on videotape, there would be no field mismatches from the telecining and frame conversion and no film judder. I don't think SLIDERS being shot on film is any kind of controversial conspiracy theory.

Well, people in the past have had debates whether it was film or tape.

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Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

I'm not familiar with these debates, but I can assure you that you are absolutely right to say SLIDERS was shot on film: 35mm film in Seasons 1 - 3 and 16mm film in Season 4 - 5. You don't need to 'believe' it, you're correct and it's an objective fact.

If anyone ever told you it wasn't shot on film, they are confused and mistaken. I can right away that it is film from the film grain.

When film is exposed to light, silver halide crystals in the film experience a chemical reaction with tiny particles of metallic silver which create the visible image and creates the texture of grain. This grain is clearly present in the Pilot and Seasons 2 - 3, and the grains get comparatively larger in Seasons 4 - 5, and it's very recognizably 16mm film.

Videotape does not have film grain because it records a purely electronic signal without the chemical reactions for grain.

(Most modern TV and film is shot with digital cameras, and in most cases, film grain is added afterwards to mimic the texture of chemical film, and it adds a bit of texture while being less perceptible because it's uniform and consistent as opposed to variable to the image content. And on streaming, digital files are encoded to smooth out most of the grain (reducing file size) and uniform grain is overlaid during playback.)

Grain is not as visible on episodes 102 - 109 due to the episodes having been stored on low resolution analog videotape that didn't maintain even an SD version of the original film and its grainy properties. However, 102 to 109 were also clearly shot on film: while they lack visible film grain, they have all the signs of film-to-tape conversion.

They have judder -- uneven motion -- in fast moving scenes. They also have interlacing artifacts: horizontal lines during motion and jagged edges on straight lines like chains, fences, poles and shelves. This is the result of the film to tape telecine process where the 24fps frame rate format of film was converted to the TV broadcast 30fps videotape.

Videotape would not have judder or interlacing artifacts; those are exclusively the result of film to tape telecine conversion.

Also, videotape has a very flat colour range and the dynamic range of SLIDERS, even in those beige rooms of Seasons 4 - 5, is beyond what videotape could record.

If there were ever any debate about whether or not SLIDERS was shot on film, it was likely due to people being misinformed about and/or misunderstanding TV editing. The pilot was shot and edited on film as a big budget TV movie to sell a subsequent series, and then it was transferred to high grade videotape with 420 lines of resolution, used for review and sales and broadcast. However, the following episodes of the show were shot on film and then transferred to videotape for post production.

Unlike film, videotape offered linear editing, immediate playback, and needed no chemical processing, providing a faster turnaround time essential for TV production. The show seems to have used standard but low resolution analog videotape format for episodes 102 to 109 which is why those episodes are blurrier.

Low resolution videotape was cheaper and, for standard definition 480i broadcast and CRT viewing, the viewer couldn't tell that it was blurrier, so it didn't matter. Only when the DVDs were played on a mid-2000s HDTV did the poor video quality become apparent.

In Season 2, there was clearly a switch to high resolution digital videotape, meaning we go from "Luck of the Draw"'s fuzziness to "Into the Mystic" looking sharper with another increase in sharpness for Season 3 and a slightly more grainy look for Seasons 4 - 5. Digital videotape with 540 lines of resolution became the affordable industry standard during the long production gap between "Luck of the Draw" and "Into The Mystic", with improvement each year in the film to digital tape telecine process.

If fans were ever debating whether or not SLIDERS was film or videotape, it's likely because SLIDERS was shot on film and, aside from the pilot, transferred to videotape for editing and special effects, and stored on videotape for broadcast and later digitized from videotape to DVD. Fans were likely confused by production references to videotape suites for editing and effects. In addition, there were isolated B-roll sequences (sports footage, etc,) that were recorded on videotape, but it's maybe 2 percent of the show.

SLIDERS on DVD has film grain and all the artifacts of a film to tape conversion: judder and interlacing artifacts. If shot on videotape, there would be neither grain nor judder nor artifacts. You don't need to believe you're right about this matter; you're making a statement of fact and you are correct.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Most TV series were shot this way on film (edited in post on tape), except maybe sitcoms which were shot entirely on video.  Unfortunately, the process of obtaining the film, rescanning that, followed by a shot by shot reproduction of what was done in post, is never going to happen for this series.  It's still something that they did it for Star Trek and Next Gen.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Grizzlor wrote:

Most TV series were shot this way on film (edited in post on tape), except maybe sitcoms which were shot entirely on video.  Unfortunately, the process of obtaining the film, rescanning that, followed by a shot by shot reproduction of what was done in post, is never going to happen for this series.  It's still something that they did it for Star Trek and Next Gen.

I still hold out hope they'll rescan the film. I'm not sure if I would want the special effects redone anyway. They rescanned the film on Lois and Clark and just left the old special effects, which is better than nothing. I don't think Lois and Clark is a huge beloved series, although it is Superman. The amount of work they done for TNG was crazy. Fans were upset that James Cameron used AI for the most recent Aliens 4K transfer: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2024/08/13/ja … volvement/. I can understand both the fans side and his as well. Long story short, the fans didn't want the AI or grain reduction and he tells his fans to get a life.

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Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Jim_Hall wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Most TV series were shot this way on film (edited in post on tape), except maybe sitcoms which were shot entirely on video.  Unfortunately, the process of obtaining the film, rescanning that, followed by a shot by shot reproduction of what was done in post, is never going to happen for this series.  It's still something that they did it for Star Trek and Next Gen.

I still hold out hope they'll rescan the film. I'm not sure if I would want the special effects redone anyway. They rescanned the film on Lois and Clark and just left the old special effects, which is better than nothing. I don't think Lois and Clark is a huge beloved series, although it is Superman. The amount of work they done for TNG was crazy. Fans were upset that James Cameron used AI for the most recent Aliens 4K transfer: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2024/08/13/ja … volvement/. I can understand both the fans side and his as well. Long story short, the fans didn't want the AI or grain reduction and he tells his fans to get a life.

i'll never understand directors saying 'get a life' to fans when both the director and fans are being meticulous and anal about the quality of the content.   I suppose since the director thinks it's his, and therefore part of his life, it's different?  But still doesn't make sense to me -- if the director cares that much about the details, aren't these the people who share their point-of-view (rather than the apathetic people with lives).

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:
Jim_Hall wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

Most TV series were shot this way on film (edited in post on tape), except maybe sitcoms which were shot entirely on video.  Unfortunately, the process of obtaining the film, rescanning that, followed by a shot by shot reproduction of what was done in post, is never going to happen for this series.  It's still something that they did it for Star Trek and Next Gen.

I still hold out hope they'll rescan the film. I'm not sure if I would want the special effects redone anyway. They rescanned the film on Lois and Clark and just left the old special effects, which is better than nothing. I don't think Lois and Clark is a huge beloved series, although it is Superman. The amount of work they done for TNG was crazy. Fans were upset that James Cameron used AI for the most recent Aliens 4K transfer: https://www.avpgalaxy.net/2024/08/13/ja … volvement/. I can understand both the fans side and his as well. Long story short, the fans didn't want the AI or grain reduction and he tells his fans to get a life.

i'll never understand directors saying 'get a life' to fans when both the director and fans are being meticulous and anal about the quality of the content.   I suppose since the director thinks it's his, and therefore part of his life, it's different?  But still doesn't make sense to me -- if the director cares that much about the details, aren't these the people who share their point-of-view (rather than the apathetic people with lives).

The director can be seen as an artist and as you said feel like they can do whatever they want. I think the fans should get the better bargain though. Some movies are just pure pop culture and have influenced generations. It's not like Aliens, Terminator, etc. are relatively obscure movies. I think it's like a singer messing with the tune of an old song saying well here's the new official one now. Sound and vision can just become second nature to people.

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Twitter @slidersfanblog
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908 (edited by ireactions 2024-09-04 19:53:52)

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

If it were up to me -- and it's not -- it would have been nice if the TRUE LIES blu-ray had included an unenhanced original negative scan, even if only as an extra DVD.

I think AI sharpening has its place, but I cannot fathom why anyone would need to use it on TRUE LIES. It was shot on 35mm film, it was stored on 35mm film. The original negative, after rescanning, might have benefited from a modest noise reduction because film projection softens noise while LCD sharpens it and makes it more distracting. It might benefit from some colour and lighting adjustment because LCD is much brighter than a theatrical print projection screen: it would be good to make sure elements meant to be dark and shadowy remain so while bright scenes aren't overexposed. But it certainly would not need resharpening for 4K televisions; it's already a 35mm film scan.

The AI sharpening on TRUE LIES, in my view, makes details that would be naturally blurred by movement retain sharpness even when in motion, which becomes way too distracting. This is a similar issue to TVs with motion smoothing via frame duplication to boost 24 and 30 FPS video to 60 or 120 FPS. While motion smoothing might make a video look more fluid, the process doesn't create the blur that the eye would expect to see with motion, so the image looks unnatural. The AI sharpening on TRUE LIES has created a similar effect of sharpness without motion blur within a 24 FPS frame rate, and the human brain will reject the mismatch of movement without blur.

The reason they AI sharpened it is probably because their overly aggressive digital noise reduction created a very soft image, and they wanted to sharpen it up. But the end result is that aggressive noise removal on TRUE LIES has eliminated texture from surfaces like skin and clothes. The sharpening, in turn, has increased edge contrast, but does not restore the obscured texture. The image looks computer generated instead of captured in film videography.

One of the first movies that I recall looking like it had suffered way too much noise reduction was WILD WILD WEST, which I saw in theatres and found oddly unnatural with very little grain, but also overly smoothed out skin. At the same time, I've watched a digital scan of a 1977 theatrical print of STAR WARS and found that on LCD, the grain is so prominent and distracting that some DNR is worthwhile -- not to remove it entirely, just to tone it down so it's not a barrier from the story.

Back to TRUE LIES: Cameron insists he reviewed and approved each AI-restored shot. I suspect that when a director has looked at a movie for too long, they may confuse how good individual frames look with how it all plays when in motion and they will also see what they expect to be there instead of what's actually there.

Of all the films that very much did not need elaborately extensive 'restoration', TRUE LIES would be at the top of the list. These changes may have been to make it look more 'modern', but there is nothing wrong with a 1994 film looking like it was made in 1994, and trying to change that doesn't make it look like it was made in 2024; it just looks like it was warped and distorted in 2024.

I think Cameron would have done better to make the 'restoration' of TRUE LIES subtle and low key, focusing on making it look at home on an LCD screen rather than trying to make it look 'better' and making it look... stranger.

EDITED TO ADD:

Hours later, watching a pre-remastering 1080p version of TRUE LIES -- this movie is hilarious. It is beyond me why someone would spend a number of years making this movie with such wonderfully human characters, with Arnold Schwarzenegger being particularly vulnerable and sweet -- and then spend an additional year turning a cinematic, detailed, textured film image into some sort of weird cartoon of oversharpened wax dummies. The remastering eliminated all the motion blur while keeping the framerate at 24 fps -- but you want the motion blur or it looks like some sort of CG animatic instead of a movie.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Back to SLIDERS:

I've found a really interesting program called ShaderGlass. https://mausimus.itch.io/shaderglass

It casts an overlay over the screen of your Windows PC, which you can move over different windows or make fullscreen. It has presets to make the overlay make your screen mimic a cathode ray tube television with the dot pattern and the screen curvature and the crushed blacks.

I set it to fullscreen on my laptop. Then I played "Luck of the Draw". With the dot pattern masking the lack of detail and the fuzzy resolution, this is the first time that "Luck of the Draw" has looked right to me in years. And it looked... like a 90s TV show on a 90s TV screen.

Maybe, for this sort of content, the future is demastering.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

Back to SLIDERS:

I've found a really interesting program called ShaderGlass. https://mausimus.itch.io/shaderglass

It casts an overlay over the screen of your Windows PC, which you can move over different windows or make fullscreen. It has presets to make the overlay make your screen mimic a cathode ray tube television with the dot pattern and the screen curvature and the crushed blacks.

I set it to fullscreen on my laptop. Then I played "Luck of the Draw". With the dot pattern masking the lack of detail and the fuzzy resolution, this is the first time that "Luck of the Draw" has looked right to me in years. And it looked... like a 90s TV show on a 90s TV screen.

Maybe, for this sort of content, the future is demastering.

It'd be interesting to see. Looks like it doesn't have .dmg and only a .zip. I don't want to have to go through installing Bootcamp again. Anyway, I trust your judgment. Now, just don't get too close to the screen son.

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Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

the sliders dvds look best 4:3 on a tube tv (at a reasonable viewing distance). Hides the flaws.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

Just my opinion: aside from 102 - 109, all other SLIDERS episodes stretch to a 55 inch LCD just fine.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

ireactions wrote:

Just my opinion: aside from 102 - 109, all other SLIDERS episodes stretch to a 55 inch LCD just fine.

Yea i wasn't specific but was moreso talking about the early episodes.

Re: Sliders DVD Releases (Universal, Mill Creek, SD blu-ray, Restoration)

a lot of good 4k upgrades here
https://www.youtube.com/@ODavies/videos