American Politics: Discuss and Debate (Page 55 of 57)

If there had been a primary and Kamala lost the primary, that would simply have been the will of the Democratic voters, and not any regime throwing her aside.

During the inflation crisis -- and for most of his presidency -- Biden avoided interviews, avoided being available for constituents to ask him questions and avoided anything and everything that would have made him feel present to the people. It's pretty obvious why: his verbal communication skills had declined, he mixed up names, he mumbled, he'd freeze -- and his handlers didn't want his diminishment (superficial as it was) to be visible. They distanced him from the press... and though he could campaign for office that way.

**

Bernie Sanders says that once again, Democrats have given up on trying to win votes from working class people, instead focusing on demographics and identities.

https://x.com/BernieSanders/status/1854 … 41698?mx=2

There's definitely something there: Democrats are belittling Trump voters for choosing Trump, mocking them for caring more about the price of eggs than democracy. While voting for Trump is contemptible, the average person has been roiled by inflation, by rising food and housing costs -- and a Democratic Party that brags about having a strong economy to people who are struggling to eat is in serious trouble.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez notes that the Democratic Party is often unable to articulate specific ways to pursue working class votes because the party is unwilling to directly confront the price gouging, exploitation and misuse that corporations and billionaires inflict on the working class because party as it exists depends on so corporations and billionaires to fund it, and while Trump isn't going to change that, Trump offers forceful solutions, even they are facile or false and involve blaming minorities, while Democrats make broad and vague gestures to avoid offending their backers. The upshot is that the working class votes for the party that lies to them over the party that doesn't speak to them.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DCDRaRoxJYW/?hl=en

Vox notes that incumbent governments are being thrown out by voters struggling with the costs of food, health care and housing, pointing out: in 2020, voters were suffering from COVID and blamed the incumbent, who was Trump. In 2024, voters were suffering from inflation and blamed the incumbent, who was Biden and by extension, Trump.

https://www.vox.com/2024-elections/3832 … incumbents

Temporal Flux remarked in 2016 that a lot of people who voted for Trump didn't like or support him, but they were suffering, Democrats didn't seem to be speaking to them beyond token gestures, and that from his observation, the vote for Trump was a way to attack the entire political system that ignored them. I would offer the adjacent theory that it might be a panic button vote from people who were suffering from job losses and costs that wouldn't improve with either administration.

Andrew Yang says Democrats have failed to focus on standard of living, the working class, and alienated the majority of their base; he notes that Democrats had best abandon policing cultural behaviors. Faiz Shakir says Democrats must recruit working-class candidates who reflect people who live payday to payday.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … w-00187993

I suspect that if Democrats plan on winning any future elections, their proposals need to speak to people who work for a living or the other side will take those voters again.

I'm going to suggest learning the difference between the working class and the middle class.

I'm also going to suggest that to reiterate Democratic strategies that lost this election is to reiterate failed strategies that don't work and don't win.

The issue isn't even Kamala, for whom Sanders campaigned. The issue is that the Democratic Party that was behind Kamala is ultimately funded by the corporations and billionaire class that drive the working class into the ground.

I'm going to suggest that the people who might consider a little silence might be the ones who have demonstrated no ability to review why their side failed and what might be done differently, who claim fraud that even the losing candidates haven't claimed, or who say that some people shouldn't be allowed to vote at all, or demanding in a now deleted post that Biden and Harris should seize autocratic power before Trump does.

I'm going to suggest that when someone's political discourse is little more than panic, petulance and denial without ideas or insight or analysis or strategy, they're in not really in a position to tell anyone to shut up.

I don't mean to say that people shouldn't express grief and sadness and anger, but demanding that failed strategies be considered successful ones and trying to silence other people's analyses and suggested strategies is neither productive nor enlightening.

But again -- there is quite a difference between working class and middle class in 2024.

Ron Filipkowski from Meidas+ has some interesting post-November 5 thoughts on what wrong wrong and how to fix it.

His theory incorporates pretty much all of the above: Biden's late dropout, inflation, too short a season for Kamala to make her mark, the Afghan withdrawal, the border, Merrick Garland, cultural policing issues, Twitter, how Democrats failed to make a case for the Latino vote and the votes of non-college graduates and the working class (not the middle class)... and he notes that the Democratic Party has the talent to change that...

But only if they acknowledge and confront some hard truths and painful failures and stop living in the past.

https://www.meidasplus.com/p/what-went- … irect=true

I think Democrats need to tailor their message to "people who work for a living", which will cross all ethnicities and gender divides and ideologies.

I think this is where the Democratic Party failed and where they must correct if they plan on winning an election ever again. Their cause has to be to help people get food on the table. It is really that simple.

That's unlikely.  We haven't had a president or ex-president die before they turned 90 in decades.  We haven't had one die in office in 60+ years.  We haven't had one die in office without getting assassinated in more than 80.

Well, two things.

1. Trump isn't for them, which they'll quickly find out.  The educated people who voted for Harris have good jobs that will allow them to get through the economic hurricane we're about to get hit with.  The uneducated people who voted for Trump are living paycheck to paycheck and are going to be wiped out.  And they're the ones that are going to depend on the government programs that are going to be bankrupt.  They're the ones who are going to get sick and die because of RFK Jr.  And, honestly, good.  They're going to get exactly what they voted for.

2. The public is very stupid.  And if Republicans are just going to make up stuff or make mountains out of molehills, then the Democrat is going to have to spend the entire campaign disputing the idea that six year olds are getting sex changes in public schools and that millions of babies are being executed.  Remember that it's impossible to dispute this stuff with these people because they only believe things if Trump said it.  Harris could've paid for thousands of hours of ads disputing literal nonsense, and it wouldn't have mattered because Trump says they're happening.  If people believe in demons and monsters and secret pedophiles and things that are not happening, I don't know how a campaign is supposed to respond to that.

Again, this is a problem with the distribution of stupid people.

We also haven't had a president who only eats hamburgers, gets no exercise, and is morbidly obese in decades.  And with all the civil unrest we're about to have when there's no food, no gasoline, and no jobs, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a few more attempts on his life.  He's already hated by half the country, and as soon as he starts destroying the lives of the people that trust him, they're going to come for him.

I felt lots of things in my bones... that sometimes were not true. I felt SLIDERS would be back on the air by 2005; that Hillary Clinton would win in 2016; that Donald Trump would be in jail by 2021, etc..

The world doesn't always reflect what I feel. My emotions are often valid, but my prognostications are often wrong. They were wrong here. On November 5, I watched every analyst I've been following express optimism; as the night went on, they began saying there were still slim chances; by morning, they were apologizing for having gotten it so very, very wrong.

**

A certain analyst whom I'm reluctant to name or link to anymore explained his incorrect optimism: he'd seen Harris advancing in the last week of polling and ahead in early votes, he'd seen a race that was close and competitive, and he thought Harris' ground game and financial advantages would tip the scales in her favour. Unfortunately, Trump’s Election Day surge overwhelmed all advantages, reflecting a global removal of incumbent powers during a time of economic crisis. Democrats prevailed better than most world governments seeking re-election, but not enough to win.

**

The New Republic had an article on Republican media vs. non-partisan media. Republicans have effectively taken over the information space: social media, Republican news networks and television. In contrast, non-partisan, fact-oriented media and analysis has been boxed out and downsized to the point where non-partisan news has become niche and the average voter is inundated with Republican propaganda which to America at large is no longer Republican news -- it's just news.

https://newrepublic.com/post/188197/tru … dscape-fox

The only way out: Democrats need to run campaigns that demand media coverage, or they will continue to perform badly in elections. They need to facilitate the creation of a left of center media system that can compete with FOX and Twitter. This won't be easy and it won't be cheap.

I guess we'll see.  When Republicans are in full power and the economy is destroyed, are people going to believe it when Republican media says everything is going great?  Maybe.  We are talking about some incredibly brainwashed people.  They believed that advanced legal theories are being taught to children.  They believe that kids are getting sex changes without parental consent.  They believe that babies are being executed, I guess for fun?  According to pilight, the biggest issue in America is two people getting sex changes in prison.

So maybe when there are food shortages and no social security, no healthcare, no medicare, massive unemployment, and a historic recession, people will believe that everything is going great.  Republicans basically told voters that things were going to get really bad, and they still got voted in.  Maybe they want to suffer.

As QuinnSlidr is our friend, I took the view that he was not lying, but speaking out of grief.

As pilight is also our friend, I take the view that he is expressing a personal perspective but has left out key nuances, or is simply mistaken, as opposed to willfully conveying what is otherwise an incredible falsehood.

It's flat out not true. Look, I make mistakes too.

Grizzlor has proven quite correct in saying that identity and culture politics aren't really winners in an election where most working class voters are struggling to buy food. I'm glad he said it. I'm sorry I didn't appreciate it at the time.

**

"Somehow, Palpatine returned."

The blue states are getting ready. Gavin Newsom is taking point for now. Others will follow.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/0 … e-00188493
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/0 … e-00188526

I guess I'd also want to say -- while we need to be firm in calling out falsehoods, we also need to be extra patient and kind to each other and ourselves for the next while.

Take your time and be easy on yourself. This is an impossible situation that no Democrat ever thought they'd be staring down the barrel of once, let alone twice.

Al Jazeera: There have been no credible allegations of election fraud or evidence of votes that disappeared during the 2024 election.

On November 6, Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Director Jen Easterly said that election officials are still counting votes and reported no incidents of compromised election security.

Similarly, Ishan Mehta, director of media and democracy at Common Cause, a public advocacy group, said the 2024 election was safe, secure and “pretty smooth”.

“There is no evidence that any votes disappeared,” or of other fraudulent activity during the 2024 election, Mehta said. He also said he knew of no evidence of attempts — let alone successful efforts — to “hack” or “steal” the election.

Even if such attempts occurred, they would fail, experts said.

“There is no one ‘hack’ to change the outcome of an election or to change vote totals,” Mehta said. “Each state has its own independent, non-connected systems,” and election workers are trained to run elections and fix any issues that arise and take that responsibility seriously.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/ … -disappear

I can't say human behaviour makes sense to me. I would like to believe that conspiracy is the reason why Trump won the White House for the second time. But I don't see any evidence of a hack, just speculation masquerading as information.

This 2024 election denialism operates on the assumption that Democrats and their values are the default baseline of the majority of human beings. That someone predicting a Democrat win in 2024 could not possibly have been wrong.

Democratic values are my baseline, but that doesn't mean they are anyone else's.

This person's sources are random people on social media whose only actual qualification is that they tell this person what they want to hear even when that information is absurd and ridiculous, such as claiming that hacking a US election is as easy as hacking a tap to pay handheld.

Someone with such a selective bias will present such theory and assumption as evidence and facts. Such a person has lost all credibility for evaluating what sources are reliable and what sources are not. Anything that fits their denialism is plausible to them; anything contrary is untrustworthy for them.

This is the same reasoning by which they insisted that Joe Biden's debate performance was superb, that Joe Biden's underwater approval ratings were enough to win an election, that the working class is the middle class, that a close election with polls in the margin of error were in fact prelude to a Kamala victory, which culminates in claiming that Kamala won and anyone who claims otherwise is foolish or lying.

This person is not a political maven and has never had any willingness to think critically about Democrats. They have always been in denial about the faults and failings of Democrats. Their view is that Democrats couldn't possibly lose.

This person accused other Democrat voters of being Trumpists and racists because they raised concerns about Biden's polling and poor debate or didn't enjoy one speech from a black person; this person's demands for ideological purity reveals that their reasoning was based on validation, not analysis or evidence. They were angry that anyone could doubt their view that Democrats couldn't possibly lose.

This person's attitude was that personal Democratic values would triumph in elections and their Democrat standard bearers couldn't lose. This person mocked and ridiculed any doubters who dared question their certainty that Biden and Harris and Democrats couldn't possibly lose.

Democrats lost. Now this person's selectivity has them claiming it is very easy to hack an election. This is so they can hang onto their certainty that Democrats couldn't possibly lose.

These posts of election denialism, when reviewed alongside the demands for ideological purity, speak to a very rigid and inflexible mind that is open to new information, but only if it matches previous assumptions. It's one thing to be dismissive of Bernie Sanders or Al Jazeera, but anyone who thinks Joe Biden aced his debate and hacking an election is "simple, stupid, easy" is not engaged in critical thinking. They haven't been for awhile.

Sorry.

This person is not malicious or evil, just human and in pain. But we should all be old and mature enough not to believe something just because it's what we want to hear.

Perhaps there will be actual evidence that the 2024 election was hacked, but at present, there is not. Right now, the claim of 'hacking' before us comes from someone who, again, thinks exploits on point of sale access points are the same exploits to be used on a standalone, minimally-networked or non-networked and hyperdiverse array of discrete voting machines. Prying open a door with a crowbar does not make someone a safecracker.

Until there is evidence of a hack beyond someone presenting assumptions as fact, this 2024 election denlalism is, factually, no different from 9-11 trutherism or birtherism or Flat Earth believers. The motivation is progressive and earnest. But the method is conclusion first, speculation second, evidence a maybe ninth or tenth priority.

Even if it turns out the election were hacked, this person's 'reasoning' was based in a shallow, Democrats-only perception of the American electorate. I'm not saying this to hurt anyone's feelings, but misrepresenting speculation as fact has crossed into misinformation. And the pattern behind this behaviour was present even before the election.

If actual information emerges, I'll revise my views accordingly, but I will note here that the point of election denialism here is so that someone doesn't have to contemplate where they and other Democrats may have misjudged the world and the loyalties of the American voter.

I did not enjoy typing any of this. I did not enjoy criticizing someone this way, especially when that someone is on my side.

More on how the Republican chokehold on social media influenced the election:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … s-00188548

It would certainly explain why voters supported progressive ballot measures but then voted for a fascist candidate.

Two things:

1. QuinnSlidr, I think you're right to be suspicious of the results because, logically, it doesn't make any sense.  Republicans can say the economy is bad, but it isn't.  Republicans can say that an army of illegal immigrants are coming to rape, murder, and steal, but they aren't.  Whenever Trump voters are asked how illegal immigration hurts them personally, they say it doesn't.  So even if you discount Trump's crimes and his fascist tendencies, there was no reason to vote for him over Harris.  The polls said she'd win (even if it was close), Harris had a much better ground game and more money to get her over the finish line, and there were signs that, if there was polling error, it was going to her.  On election night, I was sure she'd win.  Maybe not 100% but pretty sure.

But I think I fell into a trap that a lot of Trump voters fell into, and my news became an echo chamber.  I didn't want to read or trust any source that said Trump might win, and I read as much as I could that gave me hope that she'd win.  Maybe those sources, like many of the ones Trump voters listen to, are biased.  And that's on me.  So while it feels like the cheater cheated, maybe it just feels like that.  Until we see evidence, that's just how it is.

2. Here's how I'm going to resist.  I hope Trump voters get everything they want.  I hope they get the tariffs and the mass deportations.  The economy will suffer, and people that thought Trump would save the economy will get to know first hand how that was going to work out.  Trust Trump, elect Trump, go broke.  No sympathy from me.

I hope he arrests Gaza protesters that voted for Stein or even Trump.  I hope Trump goes after unions and encourages companies to fire employees that try to unionize.  Biden took care of the unions, and they gave him the middle finger.  This is what they wanted, and they get to live with the consequences.  No sympathy from me.

I hope proud Americans who voted for him get to see the constitution that they love so much get tattered just a little.  I hope Latino men that voted for Trump get caught up in mass deportations and get kicked out by the man they trusted.  I hope black men see white supremacy in power and realize that Trump will sooner turn back to slavery than give them a seat at the table.  No sympathy from me.

I hope the people who think Trump is a pacifist get to see genocides continue under a new Axis of evil that the United States is not only complicit in but a part of.  That Trump doesn't bring peace through strength, he only brings death.  No sympathy from me.

I hope the evangelicals that voted for him see that this man isn't godly.  Or Christian.  Or any of it.  That he's a false prophet at best and the Antichrist at worst.  I hope they realize that they did the Devil's bidding and that it will take a lot of soul searching to get where they want to go.  No sympathy from me.

Because we need all these people to realize the error of their ways.  They need to understand what they did and they need to understand the hurt they caused their friends, their neighbors, and themselves.  Because as we just found out, there aren't enough good people.  We need some of the bad people to become good.

Do I want Trump to suffer?  Do I want his cronies to suffer?  Of course.  But they already won.  Trump won't face justice, and anyone under his protection will be set for life.  Palestine is gone.  Ukraine is gone.  There's no saving those people.  But we can save some of the Americans that enabled this, but they're going to have to go through a baptism by fire.  And they will.  They're expecting gas to be $0.50/gallon and for food and clothing prices to drastically drop.  They're expecting there to be zero crime and zero sickness and zero problems.  They won't be ready.

But we will.  And because we'll be ready, we can weather the storm.  And we will.  I'm sorry to have to be cold, but this is the point we've come to.  If we want to save this country, we need to be ready for things to get much worse.  And we need to be ready to endure that.  If we can, we'll come out on the other end stronger.

Snopes has debunked the claim that 20 million votes are missing.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/milli … -election/

Jen Easterly, Director of US Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, says: "we have no evidence of any malicious activity that had a material impact on the security or integrity of our election infrastructure."
https://www.securitymagazine.com/articl … -elections

Speculative theories to the contrary are not facts. Neither election officials nor the losing candidates of the 2024 election have given any credence to the claims that the election was hacked.

It's important to discuss how ridiculous and unbelievable it feels that Trump won. I'm in shock. It's important to discuss election security. And it's important to be open to theories so long as they are clearly identified as theories.

However, the speculative subject of 2024 election hacking should not be used to discourage critical appraisals of Democrats.

Someone may say, "The Democrats lost the working class vote and needs to work out why and how they can get them back in 2026 and 2028." It is not acceptable to reply, "They only lost because the election was hacked!" or "You and Insert Working Class or Latino or Muslim Focused Politician or Analyst need to shut up!"

It is not acceptable to use this or other tactics to try to silence critical analysis of Democrats. America isn't a cult, it's a democracy.

For now.

(Ominous fade to credits.)

Indeed, it was Nancy Pelosi who first talked about "draining the swamp" back during the GW Bush administration

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4627680/ … hington-dc

That's why framing Trump as a threat to the system was an approach doomed to failure.  An awful lot of people want to destroy the current system because it doesn't serve them.

I worry about how this will affect you.

What could Democrats have said to working class voters and Latinos and white women before Trump destroyed the economy and the social safety net?

What can Democrats say after Trump tears it all down?

What can Democrats do to be the party of working class voters instead of the party of Uber executives?

**

Eric Blanc on why there is hope and how Trump is not invincible:
https://jacobin.com/2024/11/trump-elect … rats-labor

Really don't worry about me.  I'm better off than most.  My wife and I have good jobs that should be fairly safe no matter what happens to the economy.  We will be fine.  And that's what's so infuriating is that the people who made the pragmatic decision to vote for Harris are not the ones that will suffer under Trump.  It's the people that supported him all along.  Red states are some of the ones with the worst education, the most poverty, and the most vulnerable.  If things go the way I assume they will, a lot of them are going to be completely wiped out.

Even though their savior is in office.

What will they do then?  Blame Democrats still?  Blame the two people who got sex changes in prison?  Maybe.  But I'm hoping they realize that Trump never actually cared about them.

I'm hoping that simply breaking the Trump spell is enough for some people, but Democrats really need to take a hard look at what they want their party to be.  The problem is that they're at a fork in the road.  They can't be the party of the working class and the suburban educated - what those people want isn't aligned.  The reason they ran "anti-Trump" is that their new base was held together by people that hate Trump.

Suburban educated voters like me are fine now so they're worried about climate change and retirement accounts and the future of the country.  Blue collar workers don't care about any of that because they need to put food on the table tonight.  So which segment do you go for and which do you ignore?

To me, I think they need to go after the blue collar workers with ways to make their lives better, and they need to leave voters like me to make the pragmatic choice.  Because I do really think that if Trump makes this country a disaster like he's going to actively try to do, he could wipe out support for the GOP.  I think he was on the verge of doing it because the whole party is just about Trump.  It's why I don't think for a second that Trump will "run" again in 2028 because they don't have anything else.  No one else can replicate what Trump did.  No one has come close.

Democrats might be in a good spot to win big in 2026 and 2028 if there are elections to win.  The problem is that the Supreme Court just gave Trump unlimited powers and put him in the White House.  So if he wants to suspend elections and make himself king, who's going to stop him

Having lost the election, the defunct Harris campaign is now... hitting up donors for more money!?!
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … ising.html

Oh for heaven's sake.