Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It is part of the comic books. The thing with TV is, it takes up valuable minutes that could be better spent watching Felicity cry about her relationship with Oliver... On second thought, let's keep the openings. smile

I'm seeing more and more articles about the decline of Arrow. I wonder if the writers will actually pay attention to this and reevaluate their work, or if they will continue to exist in their own little bubble, where they cling onto one group of internet fanatics and go out of their way to write to that one specific group.

If they don't make things better, next year is a natural ending point for the series. The end of the flashbacks.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Or they just start doing flash forward every episode! I mean, they flashed forward twice this season and it worked out awesome!

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It's official. Supergirl is headed to the CW next year. Don't ask me where they will have time on the schedule. Maybe they will go half a season and then swap with Legends?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Well, I'm sure CW will cancel something.  They could pair it with Flash or pair it with Legends. 

It almost certainly means Calista Flockhart is gone.  In fact, most of the cast seems sorta "LA" and I don't know if if they'll make the move either.  Or if the cast will be able to afford to move them.

Like we've been saying, a cast pruning and a soft reboot might not be the worst thing in the world.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Given the Vancouver move, I'm betting this will be basically a new Supergirl series.  They won't be transporting many (if any) existing sets; not all of the actors will transition; may not even keep some of the writers and producers depending on if they were LA residents who don't want to move.

It will be interesting to see how they handle it, but I don't see them keeping it separate from the Arrowverse any longer; and the easiest fix for the entire thing would be to strand Kara in the Arrowverse away from her friends, family and life.  Could actually be an interesting turn to give new life and direction to the series if they handle it right.

One interesting way to handle it would be Rip Hunter finding Supergirl floating unconscious in the time stream.  They could actually use her on Legends first and then make her second season basically a spin off of Legends.  Supergirl season two could then explore how she ended up floating out there.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm sure they'll be able to get most of the cast for guest appearances if they need to (Calista basically did the show as a favor anyway) but yeah, they should just throw Kara into the Arrow universe, which will only help the show. Having her exist in a world with Clark but without showing Clark just didn't work.

They will probably want to keep as many as possible, but I don't think that Calista will go for good. Chyler has a young family, so she is out. Mehcad... I don't know. Jeremy is a New York actor anyway, right? So he might go. David, I don't know. But even of he leaves, Martian Manhunter could go. I just don't think that two alien superheroes are needed on the show.

So, they could just make her a stranded alien from another world again, or they could send her to the future, to work with the Legion.

The writers could remain the same, since they all work from LA anyway. I always thought that writers should live closer to their shows, so they know the area that they're writing for. But that will probably never happen.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I would prefer to see SUPERGIRL continue as it has, albeit with fine-tuning the series a bit so that its contradictory elements aren't so contradictory. The massive budget cut that will result from shifting to the CW network? I'd handle that by having at least one-third of the season be Supergirl-light episodes in the way Superman was usually a cameo role on LOIS AND CLARK. Nothing wrong with focusing on Kara Danvers instead of Kara Zor-El for a few weeks at a time.

As for the problem of the DEO and CATCO being two separate and contradictory entities -- I'd merge the two where the DEO starts using CATCO as a cover for its operations and none of the CATCO employees notice that their workplace has been unknowingly re-purposed into an information center for spies. I'd shift Winn into working at the DEO full-time and put Jimmy in a CATCO outpost in the city as a crime reporter, and have him supporting Kara in the Supergirl-lite stories while Winn and Alex feature heavily in the Supergirl-centric adventures. This would also allow for hiring the the supporting actors for 13 episodes a year instead of the full 22 the way SMALLVILLE would handle cast.

If Mehcad Brooks has to leave, send him back to Metropolis and have him return occasionally as a guest-star. If Callista Flockhart can't stay on full time, I'd like her to be running her empire from afar and to be a constant voiceover/cell phone presence -- maybe she's just globe-trotting but literally phoning in her work. If Jeremy Jordan doesn't stay, have him hired by the DEO on a secret mission. If Chyler Leigh can't be retained, have her searching for Dean Cain offscreen. If David Harewood doesn't make the jump to LA... well, he's the god-damn Martian Manhunter; he can have a different face.

But yeah, I guess you could have Supergirl fall into the ARROWverse as well.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The problem with Kara just falling into the Arrowverse is the fact that Barry already did that, and they got him back in the course of an episode.  Now, oddly enough, they could go the Sliders route where Kara is transported but can't find her way home.  So she stays in the Arrowverse until they can find a way to send her back to *her* Earth.

One thing they could do is have Barry go get her for help and then not be able to bring her back.  It could be a background story on Flash, allowing for Barry and Kara to have crossovers (since they're great together).

But she'd definitely want to go home, and just stranding her on a parallel universe isn't the best way to start a show.  I mean, I guess Harry and Jessie are doing it, but at least they have each other.  Now I guess it could be Kara and someone else from her show so she's not too upset about it, but it'd still be odd.

249 (edited by Informant 2016-05-13 08:33:16)

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Shocking twist on Legends, and for Wentworth Miller. Spoilers below.
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So, Snart sacrificed himself for the team. But the way he did it left the door open for his return. It is now being reported that while Miller will not be a regular on Legends next year, he has signed on as a regular across all of the DC/Berlanti shows. So he will be on Legends, The Flash and maybe even Arrow and Supergirl.

They say this is the first time that a contract like this has happened. I wonder how his name will appear in the credits.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Probably use something like they did with John Rhys-Davies on Sliders and Michael Shanks on Stargate; there will be some kind of minor adjustment to make the name stand out such as "and featuring Wentworth Miller as Captain Cold".  It's really not as important with the Berlanti shows, though - there are no opening credits.

As for Legends, I still think we're going to get a kind of reset button next week.  The characters on the Waverider will probably become a paradox that exist outside of time or something.  As a result, their original selves before the time trip will still exist in present day as though nothing happened, but the Waverider crew will go on as characters with no home to go back to because there's a version of them already filling that space.  It would help explain why they stay stuck with Rip instead of going back home once Savage is dead.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's really interesting about Snart.  I wasn't expecting that (if anything, I would think Ray would die).  At the same time, I think it's pretty cool that he's going to be able to appear in any show.  With the Arrowverse being four shows now, I think an arrangement like that with several characters could be beneficial.  I know he's not interested but someone like Colton Haynes (Roy/Arsenal) would fit for something like that.  So when Barry loses his speed, Arsenal could step in and help out.  When Team Arrow needs him, he could help out.  And I'm sure there's a way to get him on LoT and/or Supergirl in a similar fashion.

I also think that arrangement would work well with Felicity and even someone like Cisco.  Felicity already has connections with Flash (Barry) and Legends (Ray), and she could help out any of the teams on any particular week.  Same with Cisco, who's delivered tactical gear to many of the players across the board.

Obviously Oliver and Thea are Arrow, Barry and Iris are Flash, Rip is Legends, and Kara is Supergirl.  But, honestly, pretty much every other character could be fluid on any of the shows.  And Hell, if season five is truly the end for Arrow, some sort of deal for Amell could certainly be reached if he wants to stay on board.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Agreed. Especially about Felicity. She is awkwardly placed in episodes to keep her active, and then on other shows, we end up wondering why they don't call Felicity.

Cisco is pretty firmly planted on The Flash, but we know that he is constantly working with the Arrow team off screen. So yeah. I agree.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I mean there's people who are probably more suited for one show than another.  But I just think it'd be really cool for the flow of the universe if most of the regulars had flexible contracts.  I'm certainly not talking about crossovers every week, but they could do so much with the universe if most of the characters are able to float from show to show.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Laurel would have been good for that. Black Canary never should have been a sidekick who gets killed a year into the job. She should have left to pursue her own mission, and appeared when needed.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, I have a story idea.

Rather than start by throwing Kara into the Arrow universe, what if they start the season with a crossover event in which both Barry and Kara (and possibly with some Legends involved) travel to the future of their own universes... Only to discover that both universes share one future? How this happens can be a season long arc, leading toward a massive Crisis-like event wherein the entire multiverse is threatened. The heroes manage to save it, but not before their two worlds are merged.

Or, they could put Kara on Earth 2. The retro vibe would work well with a character like her. Crossovers would be easy, since the Flash goes to Earth 2 all the time.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I mean they could do the Crisis on Infinite Earths either way and end with the merging of all the universes.  So Kara would have a season "on her own" (with visits from whoever) before joining the Arrowverse in season 3.

I'm pretty fascinated to see what they do with it.  Do they keep her separate?  Merge her somehow?  Or just bring her into the fold.  A lot of interesting ideas and a lot of ways they could take it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

This week's Flash was good and all, and I like Black Siren, but I think they wasted the opportunity there. For a while now, they've been talking about how the team would be emotionally impacted by the appearance of Black Siren. But the moment fell short because A. They'd never even acknowledged the death of Laurel. and B. Aside from their initial shock, they didn't seem to care much.

Barry saying "It's Laurel Lance" instead of "It's Laurel" didn't jive with Caitlin saying "We didn't just know her. We loved her."

She's a cool villain, but there was an emotional note missing from her appearance.

The odd thing was the question of whether or not they should tell Sara about her being there. Has Sara returned already?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I haven't watched Flash yet (probably will tonight or tomorrow), but I'm still not convinced that Laurel has died yet in the Flash timeline.  I mean Barry *just* got his speed back.  And he's got enough in his life to worry about.  Now I know this week has a huge metahuman brawl, so maybe *that's* why he misses the funeral?

I feel like they're purposely avoiding crossover language because they know they messed up.

In other news, Stephen Amell was doing TMNT interviews and said he'd be surprised if there wasn't an Arrow/Flash/Legends/Supergirl crossover.  What's pretty cool about DC is that they're going to be able to do their own Justice League with a female as the most powerful character.  Which is basically what Marvel wants to do with Captain Marvel - but DCTV will beat them to the punch by a couple years.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That's the weird thing. They knew that Laurel was dead. But apparently it happened before Barry lost his powers, because Caitlin knew. It felt weird that the emotion of that was so muffled.

You'd think that there would be a moment during all of this heightened stress and drama when that news would hit them hard. But it didnt. And even seeing Laurel's face on someone else didn't particularly feel like that big of a deal.

It might not have seemed so bad if they hadn't made it sound bigger than it was.


I also didn't get Laurel's comment about doubles being mirror images. That makes no sense in terms of a vast multiverse. Barry, Iris and Joe weren't mirror images.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Something odd from the Flash - so Laurel is going to take down a high rise, and Barry can't go because he needs to race around the city to protect the rest of the world from the pulse.  That makes sense.  But they had time to dress up Cisco and Caitlin as Reverb and Killer Frost?  That had to have taken way longer than it would've taken for Barry to race out to take her out.

Also, it makes sense for Caitlin/Cisco to be evil metahumans on Earth 2 because they still get powers.  It makes less sense for Laurel, who doesn't have metahuman powers.  I guess Reverb could've given her the canary cry, but it makes less sense that Earth 2 Laurel would've followed the same path as Earth 1 Laurel.  Black Siren should've been Sara, right?

And since Cisco made Laurel's device, shouldn't he have been able to cancel it out?  And why didn't he remove it while Laurel was unconscious (she has it in her cell)? 

And why doesn't Caitlin have powers?

Final and - it seems like Laurel did die.  I guess it happened before Barry lost his speed?  And I guess they mourned on their own?  It's bizarre that there has been such little conversation between teams.  I know Oliver has his own stuff going on, but this is a war on American soil.  No Army.  No Argus.  No Team Arrow.  I know Barry is crazy confident, but wouldn't other forces show up regardless of what Flash wants?

I'm in a critical mood, I guess.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think Black Siren was a metahuman. Laurel may have been too, if she happened to be in Central City during the explosion. And there may not be a Sara on Earth 2. Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit instead?

It doesn't seem like everyone who can become a metahuman does. Barry wasn't a meta-human on Earth 2, for example.

It would have been better played if Cisco had these dead bird flashes for a few episodes, leading him to finally figure out what it all meant and call Star City to warn Laurel... only to hear that she is already dead. He could have saved her, if he'd figured it out faster. Vibe's first real superhero loss.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I think Black Siren was a metahuman. Laurel may have been too, if she happened to be in Central City during the explosion. And there may not be a Sara on Earth 2. Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit instead?

Laurel was still wearing something around her neck.  I figured that was the device.  I already deleted the episode so I can't go back and look.

But if she was a metahuman, wouldn't "canary cry" as her metahuman power be crazy coincidental?  I mean, that's only her "power" on Earth-1 do to a series of events that are seemingly random (Sara being called "Yellow Bird" due to her blonde hair in the League).  Maybe Laurel was on the Queen's Gambit, ended up with the League, got the same nickname, and came back with the canary cry device.  Then ended up in Central City, got hit with the dark matter, and the device merged with her body?  It's possible.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Haven't seen this mentioned yet, but DC is changing its company logo again:

http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/upload-30977.jpg

It's going to integrated across all media, so expect to see that monstrosity at the end of the DC shows next season.

I still miss the DC bullet from 1976 to 2005.  Here's a look at logos from DC history:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/dc-logo-history.jpg

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It as bad as some logos, but it seems more like a concept than a finished logo.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I always enjoyed Marvel editor in chief Joe Quesada declaring that DC might as well call themselves AOL Comics as that would at least mean something. That logo is simply two letters in a circle. Personally, I think that DC might be better off using the individual emblem for each hero (Green Arrow's arrowhead, the Flash's lightning bolt, etc.) and just put DC COMICS next to it.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't get the AOL Comics line. Maybe I'm just tired.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

ireactions wrote:

Personally, I think that DC might be better off using the individual emblem for each hero (Green Arrow's arrowhead, the Flash's lightning bolt, etc.) and just put DC COMICS next to it.

That's a cool idea.  I don't know if they still do it, but I liked how Marvel used to (maybe still does) personalize their opening logo in the movies for whoever the movie was for (so you'd see Spider-Man comics flipping before Spider-Man movies).  This could be something similar.

I don't like that logo at all.  It seems like a huge step back.  I actually liked the one they had.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, I watched the LoT finale.  Pretty solid.  I liked that the beginning had them adjusting back to life, and I like that Rip sorta helped Sara from trying to go back and save Laurel.  And it was pretty cool to take advantage of the size of the team by killing Savage three different times.  And, yes, we got the hard reset and a new quest with a smaller cast.

What I think is bothersome about all three shows is the lack of acknowledgement of what's going on in the other three shows.

- In Arrow, Damien Darhk just set off a nuclear bomb in an American city, and he's going to try and launch more.
- In Flash, an army of metahumans attacked Central City, killing at least a couple police officers. 
- In Legends, the Earth was almost destroyed by Vandal Savage.

Now, I know they can't have crossovers every week, but wouldn't Team Flash be interested in helping prevent a nuclear blast?  Wouldn't Team Arrow be willing to lend a hand when there's a literal war in the streets?  And Lance tells Sara that her work with Rip is more important when there might not be a world when Darhk is done with it (or, conversely, if Rip doesn't think it's an issue, then everything works out fine in Arrow).

When the struggle is more intimate (Oliver having to take down Ra's or Barry taking down Thawne), then things can be contained.  But even then, Barry and Oliver helped each other.  But there's world-altering stuff going on, and I think that's a problem.  I've mentioned it several times that this season of all three shows are doing an odd job of using this shared universe.  Hopefully this new style of contract will help with that, especially if they expand it to a lot of the regular casts.

Because, honestly, Flash should be helping with what's going on in Star City.  I know he's got Zoom, but they had time for a nice family dinner (that, yes, got disrupted by Zoom).  I know Barry has a life, but a freakin' nuclear bomb went off.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

I don't get the AOL Comics line. Maybe I'm just tired.

Quesada made the comment back when DC was part of the massive juggernaut know as Time Warner AOL.  I think he picked out AOL because it was letters just like DC; but ultimately he was making a poke at DC being corporate comics with stories made by committee.  Ironic given that Marvel would later be absorbed by Disney.

As for the LoT finale, I wasn't really satisfied.  It's hard for me to put into words, but it feels like it was a story someone was making up as they went along - kind of like Jon Lovitz marrying Morgan Fairchild.  Yeah; that's the ticket.



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At least Hourman brings a lot of potential with him.  Rex's story intertwines with the android Hourman from the far future; the Worlogog map; his ancestry in Amazo; the tachyon hourglass; the Justice Legion of the 853rd century; the John Fox Flash of the 27th century; and Solaris - the star that was turned into a sentient computer.  Of course, they seem focused on the Justice Society, so I'm not sure how far they'll delve into Hourman's life.

One thing I wondered about, though.  I thought Flash's glimpse at the future at the end of season one was looking forward to a Legends appearance when the giant robot foot smashes through the warehouse roof.  I wonder where that will pop up now (if I'm even remembering it right).

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I enjoyed LoT much in the same way I enjoyed the better episodes of SMALLVILLE and also AGE OF ULTRON and CIVIL WAR -- it wasn't deep, but it was engaging and fun superhero escapist fantasy. As for why it wasn't particularly satisfying -- I suspect it's simply because LoT lacked the strong character work and philosophical depth that elevates a series from functional to exceptional. Most of the characters are in the same place they were at the start of the series.

Mick Rory remains the gruff and not entirely trustworthy teammate despite having spent centuries as Chronos. Leonard Snart remained self-serving without being evil and his sacrifice was hardly unexpected. Ray Palmer remains earnest and brilliant while being utterly incompetent. Professor Stein remains high minded but often arrogant. Jax remains rough but deviously clever. Rip Hunter remains heroic but troubled and manipulative. Kendra remains well-meaning and unsure of her power. Carter Hall remains arrogant and loyal. Sara remains a charismatic former assassin.

A lot of things have happened to them and they've done some things that are a stretch for their characters, but their dialogue and the performances don't really reflect any of it. It's not exactly BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER where Spike went from being a murderous sadist to a hero. Admittedly, all that takes time, but LoT had a lot of significant stuff happen (Chronos, Ray and Kendra's lengthy layover) with little to no real impact. Ray and Mick mention how they were settled down/training with Time Masters, but their dialogue and behaviour are no different from before these events. When characters are the same at the end as they were at the beginning, it feels like their adventures were just filling time.

It reminds me a bit of SMALLVILLE at its worst where Clark caused his mother's miscarriage and became a petty supervillain in Metropolis who did henchman work for a crime boss and lived a life of absurd luxury during which he threatened both Chloe and Lana only for the following week to have him milking cows and working on the student newspaper and exchanging longing looks with Lana like none of it ever happened.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

That is a fair comparison. Like Smallville, it is fun but not necessarily good. Fun is good enough though, sometimes.

The problem that I had with the finale is that so much of it made no sense. Killing Savage in three times at the same time makes no sense. Killing him in two time periods before Kendra or the man who was Carter were born means that they shouldn't be born (right?) And then Hawkman doesn't return to his own time. Is there a Hawkgirl there? Or is Kendra the last? And how did she happen to find the WWII helmet that Rip owns and recognize it as that one specific helmet?

Time travel shows always have logistical issues, but it seems like they went out of their way to make no sense, and just blamed it on the time travel.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

And how did she happen to find the WWII helmet that Rip owns and recognize it as that one specific helmet?

It was clearly meant to be some kind of reference to Sgt. Rock, but they didn't even attempt to make the reference worth anything (or even clear).

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/5/54/Sgt._Rock_Vol_1_325.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100928001324

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Ah... yeah, that reference didn't land at all. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Ah... yeah, that reference didn't land at all. smile

I just found this article where it was even promoted like a big deal, and it was nothing.   At least have somebody scream Rock or something.

http://sciencefiction.com/2016/02/03/le … k-that-is/

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It would make some sense if they intended to follow up later, I guess. Like if the character were to play a larger role next season, eventually leading him to that meeting with Kendra. But as it stands, it meant nothing.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I mean I guess it was an Easter Egg.

My problem with it was....how did Rip exactly plan on being a Time Master?  How can he "protect" the timeline without the Oculus?  Isn't that the reason why the Time Masters stopped in the first place?  I wasn't clear if all of them died or not, but it's implied that they either all died or just quit because the Oculus was destroyed.

But that makes sense - without the Oculus, they can't detect changes in time, right?  Something would change and they'd have no idea.  I know Star Trek's Temporal Division does something similar (and based on the ending, they might not even be doing that), but I just had no idea how they were going to do that.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wow....well that happened.

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Did Barry just destroy the Arrowverse as we know it?  Does whatever happen on the Arrow tomorrow night matter if it's going to, essentially, be re-written?  It's an interesting move - definitely going to set up some "Flashpoint" stuff.  But Flashpoint affected everyone - will this affect Arrow/Legends/Supergirl?

The Jay twist was cool but not all that unexpected.  It'll also be interesting if we get anymore Harrison Wells - he's definitely one of the better characters on the show.  I'm also a little surprised we didn't get any "speed" stuff out of Wally or Jessie.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

The interesting thing is that Kara, Harry and Jessie should be safe from the effects of this change, since they are on different Earths. Would the Legends be outside of that zone too? Maybe Snart at least.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

It'd be limited but there could be tons of ripples.  For example, there are people that Henry Allen could've saved that wouldn't have been saved in the original Arrowverse timeline.  In fact, would Barry even be the Flash?  If he never had to prove his father was innocent, he might not have gone into forensic science, and he wouldn't have been in the lab that night.  Joe and Iris would be different people, and their relationship with Barry would be different.

If Barry isn't the Flash, Team Arrow could be different.  Barry saved everyone from Ra's last season, for example.

Logistically, there should be huge changes.  We'll see what they actually choose to go with.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I don't expect this to last very long, but it would have to have some element that carries over into the rest of the season, right? Like Barry closing the vortex thing brought Zoom into his life.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

The question I keep having is "how much would Berlanti be willing to let this affect his whole universe?"  Because, you're right - Kara is protected, and I don't know if Legends would be affected (although they might be the ones who have to deal with the repercussions now that I think about it).  But I imagine they're going to want to have a scene in the Flash premiere next year where you get some version of Dark Oliver as part of some sort of Flashpoint parallel (Oliver being the replacement for Batman). 

But if this is going to go beyond the premiere, would they be willing to do an episode or two of a distorted future across all the shows of the Arrowverse.  Could we get a more brutal Oliver for a couple of episodes, explained away by what Barry did (somehow)?  Could fixing the timeline be a plotline on Legends?  Would this somehow be how Kara gets integrated into the Arrowverse?

It's a bold move.  But I hope they've thought it through better than they've thought through other plots this year.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Wait. I have a question.

How did the Caitlin hologram speak? It was the one limitation that made it obvious to people that the Flash hologram was not the real Flash. So, did they ever explain how that problem was solved?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

My guess is that they'll have Flash in its own timeline to start the season, with the other Arrowverse (and Supergirl) shows unaffected. Maybe that's what the crossover event will handle, reintegrating Flash with the other timeline, and maybe even brining Supergirl into the Arrowverse as well.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Yeah, I guess Barry could've technically splintered away from Earth-1 when he changed time.  He could end up in, say, Earth-5 (Arrowverse, Earth-2, Jay's Earth-3, and Kara's world).

I did read there there's a lot of secrecy about Arrow's finale.  Is there a chance it ends with Barry changing time and everything getting reset?  Would CW do that when there are clearly people who don't watch all shows?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Wait. I have a question.

How did the Caitlin hologram speak? It was the one limitation that made it obvious to people that the Flash hologram was not the real Flash. So, did they ever explain how that problem was solved?

Was it the speaking or the fact that he couldn't touch anything?  Barry doesn't usually speak when he's doing stuff, does he?  For the normal people on the street?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought it was his lack of conversation, but I could be remembering it wrong.


It would be awesome if Arrow got reset to the end of season 2. smile

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I was reading that this could be the way they bring Tom Cavanaugh back to play the "original" Harrison Wells.  If Barry defeated Thawne, there's a chance that Thawne could've chosen to take over for someone else.  Maybe Martin Stein? 

They could hypothetically bring Teddy Sears to play a good guy version of Hunter Zolomon who became Flash instead of Barry (if saving his mom makes him no longer be the Flash). 

Honestly, I'd hate if big portions of the universe got reset.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Informant wrote:

It would be interesting if it changed the whole Arrowverse. I don't know that they would actually do that though... would Laurel be alive? I imagine that this would have limited ripples for people up to the point where they met Barry, but you never know.

It'd be limited but there could be tons of ripples.

If I remember correctly, it was stated in season one that Barry still became Flash in the original timeline where his mother lived; Thawne just manipulated things to make the Star Labs accident happen sooner.  But, that doesn't mean that in the original timeline Caitlyn and Cisco would have ended up working at a Star Labs (Thawne hired them).  Also, what about Eddie?  He had no reason to kill himself if Thawne never became Wells.  This could also mean Cold would still be alive having never went with Rip because he wasn't Cold yet (Rip and the others possibly being protected because they were in the time stream or at Vanishing Point when the changes occurred).

All in all, I'm looking forward to what they do with it.  They have an opportunity to bring back the feel and excitement of season one which is something I felt was missing in season two.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

They could hypothetically bring Teddy Sears to play a good guy version of Hunter Zolomon who became Flash instead of Barry (if saving his mom makes him no longer be the Flash).

Hunter started out as a good guy in the comics; he was a detective with the police department if I remember right. He became Zoom because his wife was killed and Flash refused to go back in time and save her.  Hunter decided to use the cosmic treadmill to do it himself, but it blew up on him since he wasn't a speedster; the tachyon discharge then made him "fast" (actually he just slowed down time around him like Turtle).

Zoom's m.o. was that he believed heroes became better through tragedy, so he was always trying to kill Wally's loved ones to "help" him.   They kind of gave a shade of that idea at the end of season two on CW.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next year, but I hope they don't throw away two years of character development with Cisco and Caitlin, and I'm not sure that we need yet another version of Wells. They have to tread very lightly with this, or it could blow up in their faces.

It's true that Barry would have become the Flash eventually anyway. I wonder if that will factor in at all.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

TemporalFlux wrote:

If I remember correctly, it was stated in season one that Barry still became Flash in the original timeline where his mother lived; Thawne just manipulated things to make the Star Labs accident happen sooner.

Yeah, the fact that the Arrowverse is *already* an alternate timeline makes things so much more confusing.  You guys know I love shared universes, and the idea that they could disrupt four shows with this one movie is pretty enticing to me, but I just don't feel like they'll have to freedom to really do an Arrowverse event like that.  Have a darker version of Oliver - have drastically different characters across all the shows.  Make Barry's decision really resonate.

The problem is that they've already made Barry a much darker character this season, and I don't know if this was the right way to go.  I didn't love the Zoom storyline because it was too much like the Thawne storyline.  And I think the Flash needs to be more fun than it was this season.  And I think burdening Barry again is just a bad idea.

I think it would've been better if he'd somehow ended up in the Flashpoint universe at the end of season two (maybe beating Zoom sent him there).  And then he could spend a couple episodes in a darker universe where he'd see the consequences of embracing his darkness and saving his mother.  And, honestly, maybe that's what Earth 2 should've been this season.

The main problem is that they had that great episode where Barry entered the Speed Force and accepted that his mother loved him.  Then his dad died.  Then he undid everything by saving his mother.  It was a ton of mixed signals that did away with some good development.  Now Barry is literally back and square one.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

So, what did you guys think of the Arrow finale?

I kinda felt like we'd seen it before. It seems like every time there is a big disaster, there's the rioting crowd scene and the big speech. There didn't seem to be a real solution to the problems at hand, so they had to BS their way out of it with "clap if you believe" logic and wonky hacking skills. Damien started out as being a better villain than Ra's, but I don't think they knew what to do with him at the end of the day. And of course, I spent a large chunk of the episode thinking "If only they had smashed the totem... oh wait, they did! None of this should be happening!"

And Malcolm was back in the Arrowcave (aka "The Lair with Worse Security than STAR Labs").

And then the kicker. Literally every character on the show took off, EXCEPT Felicity, who a lot of fan are tired of and actually want her to leave. It's like the writers are Olicity shippers and they're just f-ing with us now.

I wish Thea would just get rid of Malcolm once and for all.

I do like that Felicity stayed fired (Smoak building on Legends be damned). She should probably be brought up on charges for what she did while running that place.

I chuckled while Oliver took the oath of office, swearing to uphold the laws of the city.


All in all, I actually think that they left the show in a good place to be rebuilt in the fall. I doubt that Barry's actions will do anything to Arrow, though it would be cool (maybe a Flashpoint Paradox-type movie event to kick off the new season before returning to normal). But it will be nice to cut back the team a little bit. Felicity should also leave, of course. Or Curtis. We really don't need both.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I thought it was okay.  It was a little poetic that the season started with Oliver and Felicity having abandoned Oliver's quest, and it ends with everyone else abandoning it.  I think it makes some sense, and it's cool that Oliver is going to be able to fight his fight in the light.  It's probably going to be a little difficult to be the Green Arrow when he's mayor, though.  This'll be the first time he's actually had a job since like season 2, right?

I was a little surprised at how it ended.  I was sorta thinking they might have an epilogue where everything resets and is darker because of what Barry did.  For people who watch Flash, they'd know.  For people who only watch Arrow, it'd be an interesting twist to be explained next year.

If they aren't going to have ripples through the rest of the Arrowverse, I think the Flash twist is sorta pointless, right?

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Okay, let's say that (just for the fun of imagining) the Arrow writers used the Flash finale to fix their show. They come back and the past two seasons are replaced with a new history that we get in dialog and flashbacks.

Do we rejoice and go with it, or would that be more bad writing?

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I think it'd be a mistake.  Going back a couple years would only work in our timeline - not theirs smile  Even if Laurel was back alive, the current writers would still be more interested in developing Felicity.

The fact that they aired Flash before Arrow and then didn't reference it on Arrow makes me think the changes won't be wide-spread.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Superman is apparently going to make a full appearance on Supergirl, in the first two episodes of season 2. People are already calling for Tom Welling, but I think that is the wrong role for him.

I wonder if they really are shipping Kara off to Earth 1, and getting this out of tye way while they can.

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Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

To get the tax credit, I think they also have to start using a few Canadian actors in prominent roles (for instance, Tom Cavanaugh on Flash is Canadian).  I would expect Superman to like hockey.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Informant wrote:

Superman is apparently going to make a full appearance on Supergirl, in the first two episodes of season 2. People are already calling for Tom Welling, but I think that is the wrong role for him.

See, I disagree.  I'd love for them to connect the Arrowverse to Smallville, and this would be the way to do it.  Yeah, Kara looks different but there were already two Karas on Smallville and maybe this Kara was a "fraternal duplicate"

If they are going to move Kara to Earth 1, this would be the only time they'd get to use Superman.  So why not use it as a chance to tie it in to the reason all of them have jobs?  Because if Tom Welling and Smallville weren't successful, there's no Arrow.  And no Flash.  And no Supergirl.  Probably.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

I'd love to see Tom Welling play Superman on SUPERGIRL not in a continuity-oriented sense -- just that I think the actor does a good job of being Superman/Clark Kent (as opposed to acting) and I think he'd do an amazing job. I'd be less in favour of Brandon Routh or Henry Cavill largely because I feel those are two actors who need the special effects -- the hairstyling, the rigs, the lighting, the costume -- to be Superman. In contrast, Tom comes off as Superman just from his affable, earnest, compassionate screen presence matched with his intensely commanding physical persona.

If they can't get Tom Welling, I would like them to hire Gregory Smith who is already working on ARROW as a director. He wouldn't be the traditional image of Superman as a muscled, six foot tall figure, however -- Smith is a toothpick sort of fellow, but Superman's strength doesn't come from his muscles anyway and he could capture Superman's earnest, heartfelt sincerity and love for all.

Re: DC Superheroes on TV (CW & HBO Max)

Having Tom play Superman would be weird. Kara doesn't just look different. His Kara looks like Indigo. His Lara looks like Eliza Danvers. His Curtis Knox (who was pretty much Vandal Savage) looks like Jeremiah Danvers. Jimmy Olsen is suddenly black. Cat Grant, Lucy Lane and the General have new faces.

Having Tom play the role would force them to explain that he is Clark, but not Smallville's Clark... or they would need a huge exposition scene to try to make it work somehow. Plus, we would then be wondering when Erica would show up, or Allison. It would be easier to just give him another character to play. Maybe someone who could cross over to the other shows if he were interested.

I was thinking that it might be cool to go with an older Clark, but that wouldn't line up with the ages of Lucy or Jimmy. I really don't know who would he a good choice. I would have to think about that.

It would be cool to see Chloe Sullivan pop up. Not played by Allison Mack, but someone new. To solidify her place in the Superman universe. Maybe Winn could date her.

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