• Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Topic: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

So I was reading that Warner Bros. is delaying two Ben Affleck projects, presumably so he can focus his attention on a solo Batman film he's writing.  After watching things like The Town, Argo, and Gone Girl, I have a greater respect for Affleck, and I don't think he's anywhere near the joke he used to be in Hollywood.  I think he could actually do a pretty good job with a Batman film, and he has guys like Kevin Smith and Geoff Johns in his circle that could really make it work.

But here's the thing.  Bruce is retired in Batman v. Superman.  Is a Batman solo film necessary?

And moreover....once these super-teams meet in Avengers and Justice League....are *any* of the solo films necessary?

We'll start with Batman.  I know we haven't seen more than a trailer or two from BvS, but are there a lot of places for the story to go?  We know Batman's Rogues' Gallery is still out there (although Joker and Harley seem really young compared to Batman) from Suicide Squad.  But unless the story is going to work with Batman leaning more on the Bat-family, it's going to feel a lot like Rocky Balboa movies to me.  "One last fight"  Except WB is going to want a trilogy of these movies.  So how many times can Batman really look to Alfred and say "Okay, my friend, let's do this one more time" - Batman is retired, and it took an ambiguously-motivated demi-god showing up to pull him out of retirement.  Would the Penguin robbing a fish market really be enough to bring Bruce back?

And that's why I figured that Affleck's Bruce would be the Nick Fury of these movies.  Not the star of any of these movies but a steady force that keeps the team together.

Now let's expand the topic to everyone.  Batman solo films are always okay in my mind.  I think Batman's world is so different from Superman's world that it's easy to separate the two.  Same as Thor in the Marvel universe.  Thor can go to a different dimension/realm and do his own thing without any chance that Hawkeye would show up offering to help.  Batman's gothic setting and Bruce's ego make it uncomfortable for Superman to show up offering help.

But the problem with most of these heroes is that, once they meet and become friends, it's unlikely they wouldn't want to help each other.  The problem with movies like Iron Man 3 is that the freakin' President was kidnapped and SHIELD wasn't to be seen.  Thor might not care, but it's literally half the Avengers' job to show up in times like that.

I think Captain America: Civil War is doing it the right way.  Let Cap be the star, but let's be honest with each other - all the movies involve all the characters.  They can always send Thor away or make Hulk hide, but everyone gets touched any time anything huge happens.

And just like in BvS, random characters would always be affected.  Superman's appearance draws out Batman but also Wonder Woman and Aquaman.  And then Flash and Cyborg and Martian Manhunter, etc.  But we're supposed to believe that, in a Flash solo movie, when Barry is racing to save the entire planet from a plot by Reverse Flash, Barry's BEST FRIEND Hal (with LIMITLESS power) wouldn't show up?  That Clark would be sitting by in Metropolis, watching on TV, thinking "man, I hope he pulls this off!"

No.  Would never happen. 

I think Fantastic Four and Ant-Man are showing that the public is getting tired of superhero movies.  Hell, I love these things, and I haven't seen either of those movies (and don't currently have plans to see either).  So I think, while there's juice left in these things, let's go crazy.  Just like Civil War can *basically* be an Avengers movie, it's still focused on Cap.  In the same vein, make it a Flash-centered movie that also has Hal and Diana.  Let Barry be the hero, but let the movie organically have as many heroes as would make sense. 

Or make it a Flash solo film with a lessened plot.  Make it smaller and more personal - so Hal is trying to save a dear friend instead of the entire universe.

What do we think?

  • Registered: 2015-06-23
  • Posts: 2,054

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

It all depends on how it's played. I agree that a lot of the Marvel stuff doesn't make sense. The only one that felt natural was Daredevil, and that's because it was such a different story that it actually felt weird when they did try to make it seem like a part of the bigger MCU.

But DC is doing something different. We haven't seen how that will work yet, so I don't know. They're doing the big group movies before they go back and do more Superman solo films or Batman solo films, but Batman is appearing in Suicide Squad. Whatever they do, they just need to make it right for the movie that we're watching. BvS started out as a Superman sequel and wound up being something else entirely. We'll see how that works.

There still shouldn't be a Flash movie. Sorry. smile

And for what it's worth Affleck is 42. Jared Leto is 43. Margot Robbie is much younger, but she was never really presented as being Batman's age. I am still not a huge fan of Affleck's. He is really good at that one facial expression, and he writes and directs movies that allow him to use the crap out of that one facial expression. But Batman/Bruce will require him to dig a little deeper. There are layers there that I'm not convinced he can pull off.

There are all sorts of rumors about who Jena Malone is playing in BvS. It started off with people thinking that she would be playing Carrie Kelly, the Robin in The Dark Knight Returns. Then time passed and people started turning theories toward Barbara Gordon, either as Batgirl or Oracle. If this is true, it opens up the Batman family for his movies. That would be an interesting way to go, because we never get to see the Batman family done right. There is just never enough time to get there. If they assume that we know how Bruce becomes Batman and Dick becomes Robin and Barbara becomes Batgirl, they can move on to Jason Todd or Tim Drake. That opens up a lot of stories that were never explored on film before.

And of course, I'm still holding out hope for a movie set in the future with Terry McGinnis.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.
  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Yeah, I just think "team ups" are more organic than "no team ups".  The only way that I see other heroes staying out is if the stories are more intimate.  Marvel has done a pretty bad job of this because they feel the need to make every threat big (even if the villains are forgettable).

The Arrowverse has done an okay job of this.  Barry shows up when the threat is big enough (and vice versa), but there's an understanding that he'll let Oliver and Team Arrow work on their own when they need to.  That works fine on TV, where the conflict is relatively minimal.  In movies....it usually isn't.  There's usually no need for Superman's help for whatever Batman's facing, but if Doomsday shows up, it'd be all hands on deck.  If there's a Crisis on Infinite Earth, everyone heads there.  No matter what.

  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Had an interesting thought that might work for the DCCU.  What if someone like Vandal Savage is a puppet-master in this universe, and in post-JLU movies, he makes sure the Justice League is too busy to combine to stop him.

Justice League happens.  Bruce finds that someone is responsible for the villain in that movie, but he doesn't know who. 

In the first solo post-JL movie, the hero from that movie (Wonder Woman?  Flash?  GL?) calls for the Justice League to help him.  But Batman says he's busy.  And so is Superman.  And so are....everyone else.   All the heroes are dealing with something at the same time.

All "phase 2" solo movies take place at the same time, with each solo film offering hints on what the other heroes are doing - teasing their movies but keeping them separate.  And once everyone is victorious, they combine to take down the puppet-master in Justice League 2.

  • Registered: 2015-06-23
  • Posts: 2,054

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

That could work, but it is a house of cards, similar to what Marvel is doing. If all of the movies are too closely connected to each other, you run the risk of not allowing those movies to be great on their own, and for them all to become useless if the group movie isn't absolutely flawless. I'd prefer to see the individual movies stand on their own, without putting too much thought into the JL movies. Tiny hints would be one thing, but what Marvel did was far too much and destroyed a lot of movies. Captain America's first movie is a waste of time. The Thor movies... just aren't very good. The Iron Man movies got weaker and weaker as the MCU grew bigger and bigger. And the Avengers simply wasn't worth the effort. It should have been a fun little thing that they did after they finished some of the other movies, not the centerpiece of the entire cinematic universe.

It looks like DC isn't putting too much pressure on the Justice League movie at the moment, which is good. Rather than finding a need to scale back the individual movies, it will be about them finding a reason to bring all of the characters together in that movie. That could work. I just don't want to see the JL movie casting too big a shadow over the individual movies.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.
  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Well, again, I think there needs to be more explanation in the DCCU than in the MCU.  I agree that they need to do a better job of standing up as movies, but there's a big difference between the Avengers and the Justice League.  And that difference is POWER.

Any member of the Justice League could destroy the entire Avengers lineup.  Thor is probably the most powerful of the Avengers, and his "godliness" has been downplayed.  He's just a strong "human" with "strong science/magic" aiding him.

Every member of the Justice League, outside of Batman, is a GOD.  Both Flash and Superman could eliminate/kill every member of the Avengers (including/especially) Quicksilver before they even know what was happening.  Green Lantern could contain/imprison everyone in constructs and fling them all into space.  Wonder Woman has the strength/invulnerability of the Hulk with the agility of Iron Man and the fighting prowess of Thor.  Martian Manhunter is basically Superman with the ability to shape-shift and phase through anything.  Batman wins because Batman.

If Iron Man runs into a big problem, Thor can't just show up because he's in Asgard.  Hulk could show up but he might be on the other side of the country/world and needs transport.  And that applies to any of them.  They handle their own stuff because, most of the time, it takes time for the Avengers to assemble.

If Joker is about to blow up Gotham, Superman can be there in one second.  It doesn't matter where he was, he has godly speed.  So does Flash.  The other guys also have superhuman speed or the ability to travel at superhuman speeds.  It would be flat-out irresponsible for any of the Justice League not to call the others.  And it wouldn't be because they weren't capable or pride.  It's simply because, if the stakes are high enough, there are probably others better suited for the job.  Or, at least, as backup.

I know in comic books there's a sort of understanding in comics that you let the hometown hero take care of crime in that city.  So Superman lets Batman do his thing.  Green Lantern lets Flash do his thing.  But is Superman seriously sitting on his couch in Metropolis watching Penguin set off a nuke?  Is Flash really in a coffee shop while the Sinestro kills 25,000 people? 

That's what worries me.

  • Registered: 2015-06-23
  • Posts: 2,054

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

So far, Arrow and The Flash have handled that well. They show up when needed, but they also have their own things going on. I guess that works, but they just can't spend too much time explaining why they aren't there or else it becomes an excuse more than a reason.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.
  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Well that's the thing.  They explained it.  And Barry worships Oliver and probably assumes that Ollie can handle anything.  And even then, they brought Barry in a couple times when they needed him (and Oliver showed up when Barry needed help).  But a TV show and a movie are different.  In the Arrowverse, both characters showed up on the other show for sweeps when something big happened.

In a movie, it's *always* sweeps.  Something big is *always* happening.  And when something big happens, it'd be illogical for Oliver not to call Barry and vice-versa. 

In the trailer for BvS, Bruce is in Metropolis during the fight with Zod.  He runs into the rubble as the building falls down.  That's what, in theory, any of the Justice League would do.  Heck, that's why the Justice League forms in the first place.  Something world shattering happens and the team has to unite.

What happens is that, in solo movies, the stakes are usually just as high.  In Thor: The Dark World, the earth is still being invaded by space creatures through a portal - just like Avengers.  In Iron Man 3, the President has been kidnapped.  In Captain America: Winter Soldier, the capital of the US is under direct attack from its own operatives.  There isn't the level of destruction from Avengers, but the Avengers only united because of one Loki attack.  The Battle of New York happened way after the Avengers had already assembled.

In Phase 2, the explanation seems to be that the events in each of those movies happened before the Avengers could assemble and were over before anyone could react.  But in the DCCU, there won't be any incident that could happen "before anyone could react."  Flash could be on the other side of the planet whenever you need him, and Superman could be on the moon in seconds.  And if the danger was serious enough, they would.

Now Batman can fight the Penguin with only a dozen lives at stake and that doesn't need to involve Green Lantern.  But the kind of people Superman fights?  Or Flash?  Or Green Lantern?  Backup would be needed. 

If a Zod/Superman fight took place after Justice League, the League would need to show up.  Or there would need to be an explanation.  And my idea provides the explanation.

FRIEND
Is it true that Sinestro has kidnapped GIRL and is holding her hostage on PLANET?

GREEN LANTERN
Afraid so.  Time to suit up.

FRIEND
Isn't this a job for Superman too?

GREEN LANTERN
Checked.  He's fighting some Parasite.  Sounds serious.  We're on our own.

*******

SIDEKICK
BARRY!  Zoom is downtown, he's terrorizing the Central City Bank!

FLASH
On my way!  Contact Diana!  We could use some backup!

SIDEKICK
No answer on the JL Radio.  I overheard something about an explosion on Themyscira.

FLASH
Damn.  Oh well, I guess we'll see who's faster.

*******

BATMAN
Call the League.  Something isn't right.

ORACLE
Busy.

BATMAN
I'll call them myself.

ORACLE
I mean they're busy.

BATMAN
All of them?

ORACLE
Everyone is currently occupied.  Think it's connected.

BATMAN
It's always connected.  Someone is keeping us apart.

Something like that.

  • Registered: 2015-06-23
  • Posts: 2,054

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

That could work. However, I hope that the movies focus more on telling good stories with strong character arcs rather than take the Marvel route of "More action! Bigger explosions!"

I'd be cool with some of these movies simply not being big enough to call in the whole League. There are cool villains who aren't going to try to blow up a city.


I wonder if we will see Detective Chimp...

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.
  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Informant wrote:

I'd be cool with some of these movies simply not being big enough to call in the whole League. There are cool villains who aren't going to try to blow up a city.

Damn, I meant to add that. I would definitely like to see that.  Something (relatively) intimate wouldn't require the League to gather, which would also not require the "where is Superman?" that people would ask.

The problem is that these are gods.  And the only way to challenge a god is with another god.  Humans vs. Superman haven't really made good movies - the only ones people seem to like are ones with Zod in them.  Same with Flash or Wonder Woman, although their rogues' galleries are a little more obscure.  Green Lantern can just be sent into space.  Same with Martian Manhunter if he ever gets a solo film.  Aquaman could take place entirely underwater.

  • Registered: 2015-06-23
  • Posts: 2,054

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

I think it depends on the human villain. If they challenge our heroes in more than a physical way, the strength of the hero doesn't always matter. The trick is finding a compelling way to make a Clark Kent movie rather than a huge Superman movie.

Look at Batman Begins. Most of that is pretty small scale, compared to most superhero movies.

Also, there will probably be some crossing over. Batman will be in the Suicide Squad movie, for example.

Please be informed that the political, scientific, sociological, economic and legal views expressed in Informant's posts and social media accounts do not reflect any consensus of Sliders.tv.
  • Registered: 2015-06-22
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: "Solo" Comic Book Movies post-Avengers/Justice League

Well, and I think I've said this before, with a retired Batman I wouldn't have *any* Batman solo films.  We just had a trilogy, and I think Affleck should be the Nick Fury of the DCCU.  Have him appear a ton, and make him the glue that holds the universe together.  He can suit up and fight, but I want him to be the grizzled veteran putting a team together and pointing these powerful gods in the right direction.

The problem with human villains and Superman is you get Superman Returns.  There's no place for a climactic action sequence, and you end up with your climax being Clark holding up a piece of rock.  Every action sequence in that movie was either an act of nature (plane crash), kryptonite-aided (with Luthor's thugs), or Superman dominating humans (the robbery sequence). 

With a Batman movie, main villain thug #4 can at least fight the main hero.  In a Superman movie, it's either someone crazy powerful or they're no match for him.