Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

That is really good news. When it was on hiatus, I found myself really missing those new episodes.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Gotham is still impressing me. The show is a crazy blend of drama, action, comedy and comic book insanity. They've somehow managed to capture so many aspects of Gotham City from comic books, cartoons, movies, etc, and bring it all together in a way that feels perfect... While still creating it's own canon. They depict truly horrible violence, but in a way that makes me laugh, rather than barf. Similar to what Supernatural used to do each week, when they'd usually have some sort of bloody explosion.

If the show does get canceled soon, I hope that it is saved by either the CW, or the DC streaming service.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I don't think Gotham would be Gotham on the CW.  As we've talked about, the budget would be slashed to the point where it wouldn't feel right.  I know it'd probably be a small-time renewal just to get a finale....but it would still feel cheap.

I'm hoping it's just renewed, and they don't take any chances.  I think they're close enough to the end that Bruce could technically be Batman by the end of next season.  I just don't buy him as being physically imposing enough....even if he sorta looks the part in his face and in his acting.  But I think it'd be unfair to recast him at this point.

I've read on different sites that it's likely to come back and that it's unlikely to come back.  Maybe they'd renew it for 13 episodes or something.  I don't know why more bubble shows don't get smaller orders for a definite finale.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

It is a challenge, because David Mazouz is only 17, so even if he started training heavily and bulking up, it could be hard for him to look Batman-ish right now. Unless they go with more of a Terry McGinnis look. He is really good in the role though, so I'd rather not see him replaced.

Buy yeah, the budget would be an issue.

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65 (edited by Grizzlor 2018-05-12 11:02:13)

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I've really enjoyed it.  Cameron Monaghan (Shameless) is fantastic.  The showrunner has said that once Fox gives the word on the show ending, he would write a 6 episode arc to close with David as Batman/proto-Batman.  Obviously they didn't have that chance this season, and it was too soon.  Camren (Selina) shaved her head last month (whatever), which immediately had a lot of fans worried about cancellation. 

Here's the scoop.  Warners fired Clayne Crawford from Lethal Weapon, and if they can't recast his Riggs part by I assume Monday, that show is toast, and Gotham is renewed.  Unfortunately I don't think Fox will take both.  Fox has already canned a ton of shows, partly to make room for Thursday NFL.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Recasting Lethal Weapon would just be dumb. Fox should have edited the finale to end a few seconds earlier, and it would have been a solid finale.

I think the fuss with Camren's hair has been a little over blown. In the comics Selina has had short hair, so it isn't a deal killer. Barbara's hair has changed quite a bit. Ivy's face keeps changing! I don't think a haircut is a big deal.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Grizzlor wrote:

The showrunner has said that once Fox gives the word on the show ending, he would write a 6 episode arc to close with David as Batman/proto-Batman.

Gotham has been on life support for a couple of seasons now.  It's crazy when these shows roll the dice when they know it could be their last season.  I know they weren't definitively told that it was the end, but the ratings haven't been great for a while.  It's been a bubble show all year.  It's crazy if they don't finish because they assumed they'd be renewed.

Same thing happened with the Last Man on Earth.  That show barely made it last season and ended this season on another cliffhanger.  I don't know why shows like that don't write a simple finale that would serve as a good series finale if things don't work out.  If they get renewed, it's always possible to create more story.  It's not possible to continue a show after a cliffhanger if your show is (predictably) cancelled.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

The thing about Gotham is that it has a very specific end point, like Smallville, and once you get there, you can't unring that bell.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I get that....but is that even true?

Smallville always said that it'd end the way that it ended....with Clark stepping into the light and being Superman.  I think Gotham wants to do something similar...with the last shot being Bruce putting on the cowl and going out to fight all these crazies.

But here's the thing.  Clark was essentially Superman for, at least, two seasons on Smallville.  He didn't have the suit on, but he was Superman - he even had the logo.  Bruce was essentially Batman for a portion of this season.  He's put on a mask and fought random crime.  He has a Batmobile.  The only thing missing is the ears and the logo.

So if Season Four ended with Bruce putting on the cowl with the Batman logo and hitting the streets, and then FOX decides to renew it, there's still stuff they can do.  Putting on the suit and hitting the streets doesn't make him Batman....there's still more story that they could tell about him.  Maybe they show Bruce's first times out.  Maybe they're a disaster, and he decides to travel the world and train.  Or they could frame the end of season four as a flashback and go into more detail about how he decides to go out.  Or even build up a new villain that drives him out.

Or they could just say "screw it" and air their version of Season 11 of Smallville.  Just keep the story going even after it's done - it's worked for almost 10 seasons of Supernatural.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Talk has been that it was an either/or situation with Lethal Weapon and Gotham, and Lethal Weapon just got renewed:

http://deadline.com/2018/05/seann-willi … 202388143/

So likely the end of Gotham.  No official word yet.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

And a surprise - Gotham renewed for a fifth and final season:

http://deadline.com/2018/05/gotham-rene … 202384012/

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Very cool!  The show's not perfect, but they seem to have a great vision.  I'm glad they're going to get the chance to see it through.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I'm happy! The show has maintained a steady style and quality, unlike most shows of it's genre. I'll be sad to see it go, but I'm happy that they will get a proper goodbye.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Yeah I'm not 100% how much more traction they could get on the show after this, and I'm glad they're wrapping things up instead of pushing the envelope any more.  They've already leveraged so much of Batman's Rogues' Gallery, and they've kept Bruce right at the cusp of going full Batman for so long that I don't think it could've survived at this pace for 7+ seasons.

Although I'll give them credit.  I've always said, since season one, that the show was going to have to get desperate and do a time jump where they could hire a sexy mid-20s guy to play Bruce.  They stuck with their guy, and it's worked out.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

How do they make this show? AoS looks like it was filmed in someone's basement, in the 1990's, while Gotham looks like a movie. It has spectacular visuals of the city. I'm sure a lot of it is shot against a green screen, but you'd never know it. The visuals in the finale were excellent. The characters are great. The general vibe of the show is perfect.

I am impressed with this series. The stories are great, and exactly what they should be for this series. There's not a whole lot for me to discuss about the actual storylines, because they speak for themselves. But as I was watching the finale, I was struck by how beautifully this world has been brought to life on the show.

And at the end, when they showed us glimpses of the city falling into chaos and we saw glimpses of Man-Bat, and Morgaine le Fey with Mordred (I'm assuming that's who they were), it just felt natural. That says a lot.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

They did No Man's Land in a way that even Christopher Nolan wasn't able to.  It feels so comic booky, yet it still feels very grounded.  I still don't buy this version of Bruce as Batman because he's just not very big, but they've done a great job with just about everything else.

The only thing about this show that bothers me is Barbara....she's so irritating and over-acts in every scene (moreso than everyone else).  I think her type of character fits, but the actress bothers me.  Her "no boys allowed" storyline might be fun, though.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Toxic femininity!

Yeah, Barbara is a bit much. I think it doesn't bother me as much as it could, just because she's usually surrounded by characters that contrast that personality a lot. On her own, she is very annoying, but as part of the overall picture, she doesn't bother me too much.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

So Lethal Weapon was recast with Stiffler, and Gotham WILL return!

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

The Lethal Weapon drama had been fascinating to watch. The studio totally made the wrong call on that one.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

http://tvline.com/2018/06/04/gotham-fin … bicondova/

Might be a 10 episode season.  Which is fine with me....since this should, essentially, just be the finale.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

That makes sense.

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Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Ehhh, that sucks, only 10.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Considering how close it came to dying, I think 10 will be great.  I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't simply renew it for the 6-episode arc that you mentioned they could write to wrap things up.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Gotham is the most fun show on television.  Period.  I watch a lot of shows while I do something else, but Gotham has my eyes glued most of the time.

And while I still do not buy David Mazouz as a future Batman (I think he's just too small, frame-wise), I think he does about as well as you can.  I think he has the personality down, and I think he has very Batman-like eyes.  I think, like with the rest of the show, I just need to accept that this version of Batman is going to be 5'8, and it'll work like the rest of the show.

Because, obviously, this version of Batman will be very different.  Gordon will know that Bruce is Batman, maybe from the very beginning.  Selina will know.  There's a decent chance most of the GCPD will know.  I think some of the villains will know.  And, yet, it really won't matter.  Instead of the billionaire playboy cover, I think Bruce will be a recluse (like he was in the Dark Knight Rises).  And, honestly, I think this version of Alfred will be in the field with him...if only for a few years.  Maybe even as the first Robin?

I hope the show doesn't try too hard to pivot the show to match the comics.  Because what they've created is its own thing.  And it's great.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Season 5 will be 12 episodes, though it's started a bit meh so far.  I think Monaghan's "Joker" has become the new star of the show, though Gordon, Penguin, and Riddler continue to be very interesting.  Honestly, Bruce/Selina have become very lousy this year.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I don't know why FOX scheduled Gotham the way they did.  It should've just been the 12 episodes in a row.  But it was finally back last night, and the finale is next week.

I'm not going to lie - I think the Gotham finale might be what I'm looking forward to the most this spring.  Maybe more than the Game of Thrones finale.  With the flashforward finale and the track record of the writers, it might be the most fun episode of TV we see all year.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

So, having not seen GOTHAM, how about Slider_Quinn21 offers a GOTHAM/SMALLVILLE comparison as superhero prequels?

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Oh gosh....

I wouldn't even know where to begin.  First of all because I don't think I've seen a whole episode of Smallville since the finale aired.  And secondly because it's like comparing apples and the concept of dark matter.  That's not a commentary on anything but the fact that Gotham is the most unique show on television as far as I'm concerned.

Gotham takes itself both 100% seriously and 100% unseriously.  It's both a gritty, realistic street-level cop procedural, and a show where a boy and a crazy woman can stab an immortal being with a magic knife and make him turn to dust.  It's about the life of a cop trying to save a city from real-life corruption, and a show where there's a mad scientist who is regularly turning human beings into monsters.

The best way I can describe it is that they took unused scripts for Batman: the Animated Series and threw them in a blender with Law and Order: Gotham, and then they took the Batman parts and divided them between Gordon and a Bruce Wayne that 1) was de-aged and 2) didn't remember he was Batman.

The show is either the most perfect 5-season run since Supernatural, or it's a show that stumbled into being absolutely insane by pure happenstance.  The show is either written by the most devoted comic book fans on TV, or it's actually written by the criminally insane.  Neither would surprise me.

Even when you look at modern superhero shows, it doesn't have anything to compare to.  I guess I'd say it's like Arrow....except if Arrow both took itself as seriously as Netflix's Daredevil and existed in the bright colorful world of Legends of Tomorrow.  And instead of focusing on a superhero, it was about Captain Singh.  That's Gotham.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

I have only ever watched six episodes of GOTHAM and decided it wasn't for me. And yet -- I am curious about it and have some questions for Slider_Quinn21.

Did Wayne Manor ever expand its set beyond the living room? The living room reminded me of Lex's office in SMALLVILLE; he ate there, worked out there, had his medical examinations there, held every meeting there, sat around with Clark there -- I honestly think he may have even slept there and that his bedroom was a corner of the Luthor mansion's office set with a bed shoved against the wall.

What was up with recasting Poison Ivy? What was up with recasting her AGAIN? Did that make sense to you? And was there ever any rationale for why Pamela Isley was given the name "Ivy Pepper" in the first season?

What was up with recasting Selina Kyle for the series finale? Did that make sense to you?

Did Batman as played by David Mamouz work for you in the finale?

Did you feel compelled to watch PENNYWORTH and is that anything to do with GOTHAM?

Were there any spin-off media tie in materials that you didn't consider canon?

Were their any mythology-legacy oriented cameos that you liked or didn't like (in the way Teri Hatcher, Dean Cain, Sam Witwer and Helen Slater were on SUPERGIRL)?

Was there ever any difficulty handling the sexuality of the Poison Ivy and Catwoman characters given the extremely young age of the actors playing these extremely sexualized-in-comics roles?

Were you happy with the origin of the Joker? What did you like? What didn't you like?

Was there ever the SMALLVILLE sense of the characters experiencing every major event of the SUPERMAN/BATMAN mythos before they ever even became their costumed selves?

Were you happy with the show?

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

ireactions wrote:

Did Wayne Manor ever expand its set beyond the living room? The living room reminded me of Lex's office in SMALLVILLE; he ate there, worked out there, had his medical examinations there, held every meeting there, sat around with Clark there -- I honestly think he may have even slept there and that his bedroom was a corner of the Luthor mansion's office set with a bed shoved against the wall.

My memory of this is a struggle, but I don't remember a single scene set in Wayne Manor that isn't in that same room.  I think sometimes they'd film in the other direction so *everything* wouldn't be in front of the fireplace, but that might've been their best shot at that.  I also remember a Court of Owls boardroom (?) set and a Cobblepot mansion, and they might've just redressed the Wayne set.

What was up with recasting Poison Ivy? What was up with recasting her AGAIN? Did that make sense to you? And was there ever any rationale for why Pamela Isley was given the name "Ivy Pepper" in the first season?

I think the Ivy character is the most bizarre one of the series, and it had the oddest sense of course-correction when the rest of the show just went crazy in a more natural way.  I haven't read any behind the scenes things, but my guess is that someone on the show (or, more likely, someone at FOX) wanted a "sexy" character and that required Ivy to be aged up.  Maybe they didn't go far enough the first time and decided to course-correct?

The craziest thing is that I remember the pre-pilot advertising making a big deal about Ivy.  She's in the Pilot in a major capacity.  But for much of the first season, Ivy is nowhere to be seen.  Even when she's aged up, she's never a regular.  Even when they finally got a sexy, adult Ivy, they never really used her outside of an episode here or there.

Why they used the name Ivy?  My thought is that the plan was probably to do a slower burn with her character, and since they probably planned on multiple seasons before she actually turned into Poison Ivy, they wanted "non-comics" fans to know who she was going to become.  Everyone knows Bruce and Gordon.  Edward always told riddles at the beginning so it was obvious who he was.  Oswald is called Penguin from the beginning.  My guess is it was a shorthand since there wasn't much of a way to tell the audience who she'd be.

What was up with recasting Selina Kyle for the series finale? Did that make sense to you?

It was weird because she was the only one recast.  Every other character was played by the same actor.  The time-jump wasn't huge, and there's ways to make a 19-year-old actress look 24.  I thought the new actress was fine, but it was a bit silly to me to take away the role from Camren Bicondova.  Especially since she had gained quite the fanbase.

Did Batman as played by David Mamouz work for you in the finale?

The way they used him was kinda bizarre too.  He's filmed mostly in shadow, and the only good look you get at him is sorta awkward CGI.  I thought there'd be more of him, but he's essentially used as a cameo. It was cool to see him in costume, but it's very Smallville in the way they finally use him.

Did you feel compelled to watch PENNYWORTH and is that anything to do with GOTHAM?

I haven't considered it, really.  I thought Sean Pertwee was great as Alfred, and I think I'd watch a show where he was the lead.  Like with Krypton, I don't think watching a show about a superhero's father or grandfather to be all that interesting.  Building up to a few easter eggs doesn't really excite me.

If they did a Gotham spin-off with the Gotham actors (and bring back Camren Bicondova), I'd watch that for sure.

Were there any spin-off media tie in materials that you didn't consider canon?


Probably.  I was thinking maybe I'd read Gotham comics, but I probably would've said the same thing about the Smallville season 11 comics and I didn't read those.  Are they available on TPB?

Were their any mythology-legacy oriented cameos that you liked or didn't like (in the way Teri Hatcher, Dean Cain, Sam Witwer and Helen Slater were on SUPERGIRL)?

I don't think I remember a single mythology-legacy cameo.  I don't think they had a single "prominent" actor show up in any sort of cameo.  The show made its own legacy, which is something I respected about it.  It was balls-to-the-walls crazy most weeks, but it owned it.  I don't think it ever betrayed itself, even when it decided to fully embrace fully wacky concepts.  Despite struggling with ratings, it never went for stunt casting.  I respect that now that I think about it.

Was there ever any difficulty handling the sexuality of the Poison Ivy and Catwoman characters given the extremely young age of the actors playing these extremely sexualized-in-comics roles?

I talked about this a bit with Ivy.  I think they wanted someone to be a bit of a sexpot, and that's why they aged Ivy.  Both times they did it, they made little jokes about how Ivy was now older than Bruce and Selina.  Ivy relished going to nightclubs and being an adult, and she definitely starts to manipulate men with her sexuality almost immediately.

But I guess the "sexy" characters were also filled with Gordon's various love interests.  Barbara Keane and Dr. Lee Thompkins went through various "sexy" stages, and there were characters like Sofia Falcone that also filled that role. 

Catwoman had a thing with Bruce, and she'd occasionally hang out in Barbara's nightclub.  And as she got older, she'd wear sexier outfits and dresses to the various Gotham fancy parties.  But I feel like they generally let her be a kid and even an older teenager without exploiting her as a sex symbol of any kind.

Were you happy with the origin of the Joker? What did you like? What didn't you like?

I don't like that they kept teasing it.  If they were going to do it, they needed to do it.  They kept saying that he wasn't the Joker, but Jerome Valeska kept being more and more the Joker.  To be fair to them, it was his twin brother Jeremiah that ended up *actually* becoming the Joker.

I thought Cameron Monaghan was wonderful in the role, and I think he did the best he could.  I think my biggest issue was that I thought the Joker should've been off-limits.  I didn't want a teenage Joker fighting a teenage Batman.  I wanted Batman and Joker to rise from the insanity of Gotham...not be born at the same time as everything else.

There was actually a really great scene where Jerome Valeska died for the first time, and he'd done this big wild display on Gotham-wide television.  And when he died, they showed a variety of random Gothamites acting like Jerome.  And I think the idea was that Jerome had sewn a seed into the soul of Gotham that would eventually lead to the Joker.  That the Joker was out there somewhere and we'd never know where he was.  I thought that was a great idea, and it made the whole Jerome story (at that time) feel like a great idea.

But like Sylar before him, Jerome and then Jeremiah kept coming back.  They'd die and be resurrected.  Or die and it's a fake out.  I kinda got tired of that.

They embraced him in the finale, and I thought it was pretty good.

Was there ever the SMALLVILLE sense of the characters experiencing every major event of the SUPERMAN/BATMAN mythos before they ever even became their costumed selves?

100%.  They did a bunch of Batman storylines  (the Court of Owls, No Man's Land, etc) and I think Bruce came in contact with just about every Batman villain that's ever been.  By season 3, it's essentially a Batman show without Batman.  By the end, it was a Batman show with Batman but he's just not in the suit.  By the finale, it was a Batman show with Batman in the suit but he's in the shadows.

I think the difference between Smallville and Gotham is that Gotham crammed Smallville's first 7 seasons into the first season and then played around with Smallville seasons 8-10 the rest of the series.  In other words, they realized they were a comic book show way earlier than Smallvilled did and fully embraced that for most of the run.

Were you happy with the show?

There were times when the show meandered, and I struggled at times with how fast or slow the show was moving.  But at the end of the day, Gotham was a lot of fun.  It was inconsistent, and I think I always wanted more from it than I was ever going to realistically get from a show with the budget it received....but I thought it was a fun little look into a world before Batman.

Re: Gotham: Rise of the Villains (Spoilers)

Gotham was very flawed, often repetitive, and yet, I enjoyed it and will miss it.  If I had to describe it, frankly it often had the feel of the 1960's Batman of West and Ward, if you swap 80% of the goofiness for serious drama.