Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I know it may seem like I'm stressing about continuity.  It really doesn't bother me as much as it may seem.  I can watch Strange New Worlds and not get bogged down by TOS continuity, particularly since I don't remember much of TOS continuity.  What I'm talking about here is more issues with overall continuity.  If Vulcan is okay in 3190, it is in no danger in 2410 or 2500 or any year in between.  If there's some sort of Federation Civil War in 2600, we know it eventually works out because the Federation survived (in some sense) in the 32nd century.

From a certain point of view, Discovery is now the official Trek "present" and everything else is prequel territory.  Just like TOS became prequel when TNG started.

Now ireactions is right that the future is fluid.  So maybe something will happen that will wipe out Discovery's version of the future.  We've already seen the TOS version of the future (and the past) altered.  Again, not a huge deal.  Just an annoyance.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I've always disliked the idea that timelines get wiped out. I don't like it when the audience reacts to a story with a sense of, as comic book writer Brian Michael Bendis put it, "You're breaking all the toys!" I feel that destroying timelines is like breaking all the toys and throwing out the sandbox. I would prefer that the 33rd century just exist as one of many possible futures for STAR TREK rather than destroy it. However, that may be a minority view.

The post-NEMESIS novels for TNG, DS9 and VOY had a very clean slate and did a lot of ongoing story arcs, only for PICARD to outright contradict them. The publishers elected to end their novel continuity in the CODA trilogy where the novel versions of the TNG, DS9 and VOY casts discover: all timelines are under attack by the Devidians, a race that feeds on energy from destroyed timelines. The heroes realize: the Devidians first began their campaign of destruction when the Borg altered history in FIRST CONTACT, splitting the timelines into disparate paths.

The novel timeline has been what the characters call the Splinter Timeline (media tie-ins), apart from the Prime Timeline (PICARD). The CODA trilogy ends with the novel characters sacrificing their own timeline so that the Prime Timeline and all the other timelines will be preserved while the Splinter Timeline is destroyed.

This is exactly the kind of story I dislike and disagree with. The CODA writers explained that they felt that saying the novel universe continues without ongoing publication would leave things unresolved, and they felt killing everyone off to save the Prime characters was conclusive and final. That may be, but all it did was, as Bendis would put it, "break the toys" and throw out the sandbox. I think that if a writer doesn't enjoy a a toy, they should just leave it alone rather than actively destroy it. Someone else might find a use for it someday.

I think this is just something to address in a throwaway line. "Mirror Georgiou? Again? I thought we were rid of her." "No, she's back from that possible future timeline." Or even a more involved exchange:

LUCSLY: "Hello. I'm Agent Lucsly from the Department of Temporal Investigations. I'm very familiar with you, 'Emperor.'"

MIRROR GEORIGOU: "You think you know me from reading my file, as though my data footprint is all I am and nothing compared to all you represent and all you claim to be. Department of Temporal Investigations. A portentous term bound in administrative pretense, as though time can be curtailed by a flowchart and a briefing. I have seen the end of your civilization, the conclusion of all you exist within, the downfall of all that keeps you upright. I know what is coming for you, what will consume you, what will -- "

LUCSLY: "Uh. No. Sorry. What you saw was one potential future. 38B. The Burn one, right? Yeah, that's not even the worst one. There are like four thousand apocalyptic timelines out of the 20 billion we track every day. But thanks for letting me know that it left you psychologically scarred and that it bolstered your existing narcisissm."

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Really struggling through Patrick Stewart's autobiography where he feels the need to describe what feels like every single stageplay he ever featured in oh my God I get it you felt super-insecure and on edge at all times I understand I think five examples is sufficient do we really need fifteen?

That said, it's pretty clear that Stewart had an untreated anxiety disorder masked by his commanding vocal presence.

I'm sure it'll get more interesting once we get to STAR TREK.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Still reading Patrick Stewart's autobiography...

There's a story where the serious, dour Patrick Stewart was appalled by all the laughter and goofy quipping of his castmates during the first season of STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION and then summoned them all to a meeting where he told them all off for blowing takes and cracking wise instead of solemnly and seriously performing the work of acting. "We are not here to have fun!" he roared at them.

Brent Spiner, Jonathan Frakes, Michael Dorn, Marina Sirtis, Gates McFadden and Denise Crosby contemplated this thoughtfully and collectively laughed in his face and with each other, their uncontrollable giggling continuing for a prolonged period at which point Stewart fled for his trailer with his dignity in tatters, realizing that the gang just did not take him very seriously.

There's also a neat anecdote where during Season 3, the married Patrick Stewart was seeing very little of his wife due to his filming in LA and her being in England. Stewart found himself falling in love with guest-star Jennifer Hetrick (Caroline in "Last Days", Claire LeBeau in "The Seer") and dating her while realizing that he wasn't in love with his wife anymore and filing for divorce. Stewart and Hetrick dated for a little while, but the constant pursuit of tabloid photographers was too much for Hetrick, hitting a breaking point when, on a private island vacation, they had to travel separately to get there and lasted two days before Hetrick had simply had enough. Stewart spent five more days alone on the island knowing that his girlfriend was done with him, his ex-wife was furious with him, his children loathed him, and his castmates thought he was a joyless pain in the ass and a joke.

It's so bleak that it's funny. Stewart later recounts that in later years, his TNG castmates will regularly mock-snarl at him, "We are not here to have fun!" which he agrees is extremely well-deserved.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

@ireactions -- was it the trek documentary "The Captains" where Stewart began crying over how he treated his ex-wife?

There was a lot of emotional issues there.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

One of the reasons why we haven't gotten any news on THE ORVILLE's renewal or cancellation: Disney was mulling over whether or not to buy Hulu, on which THE ORVILLE streams. It looks like the purchase will go through which will lead to some clarity as to whether or not Disney, having bought the streamer on which THE ORVILLE streams, will then order another season.

https://bleedingcool.com/tv/the-orville … this-week/

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Has there been any discussion on whether or not the actors would be able to come back?  How does that even work?  I assume none are under contract and are getting work elsewhere.  If only half of them could come back, it wouldn't really be the same.

Although if they just filmed the novel, that would be enough for me.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Seth MacFarlane has promised fans that if there's a fourth season of THE ORVILLE, he will find a way to produce and write it alongside any other commitments he has.

Most of the actors have said that they'll do their best to return, but they can't promise that because they have to take other work to earn a living and could conceivably be engaged elsewhere if Season 4 is ordered. It's possible that MacFarlane might produce and write a fourth season, but be in it less, and a crew composed of available cast members and newcomers might board the bridge.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I miss the Orville and I'm glad there's potentially a path for it to come back.

******

Star Trek: Lower Decks is such a joy.  I still think that it's sometimes too silly for me to really love that it's canon (when characters know things that only a current day Star Trek fan would know), but the show is really such a joy.  And I think the crossover with Strange New Worlds did a great job of showing that a lot of Starfleet officers are Starfleet nerds (and thus Star Trek nerds) and might know things that maybe we think they wouldn't know.

There's a decent chance that Lower Decks is my favorite Trek series of all time, all things considered.  So obviously I'm able to get over the silliness.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

ireactions wrote:

Still reading Patrick Stewart's autobiography...

There's a story where the serious, dour Patrick Stewart was appalled by all the laughter and goofy quipping of his castmates during the first season of STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION and then summoned them all to a meeting where he told them all off for blowing takes and cracking wise instead of solemnly and seriously performing the work of acting. "We are not here to have fun!" he roared at them.

Brent Spiner, Jonathan Frakes, Michael Dorn, Marina Sirtis, Gates McFadden and Denise Crosby contemplated this thoughtfully and collectively laughed in his face and with each other, their uncontrollable giggling continuing for a prolonged period at which point Stewart fled for his trailer with his dignity in tatters, realizing that the gang just did not take him very seriously.

There's also a neat anecdote where during Season 3, the married Patrick Stewart was seeing very little of his wife due to his filming in LA and her being in England. Stewart found himself falling in love with guest-star Jennifer Hetrick (Caroline in "Last Days", Claire LeBeau in "The Seer") and dating her while realizing that he wasn't in love with his wife anymore and filing for divorce. Stewart and Hetrick dated for a little while, but the constant pursuit of tabloid photographers was too much for Hetrick, hitting a breaking point when, on a private island vacation, they had to travel separately to get there and lasted two days before Hetrick had simply had enough. Stewart spent five more days alone on the island knowing that his girlfriend was done with him, his ex-wife was furious with him, his children loathed him, and his castmates thought he was a joyless pain in the ass and a joke.

It's so bleak that it's funny. Stewart later recounts that in later years, his TNG castmates will regularly mock-snarl at him, "We are not here to have fun!" which he agrees is extremely well-deserved.

funny anecdotes.  I have no reason to read his book as he's pretty much been highly open about his career and life over the decades.

611 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-11-16 08:46:54)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

It's kinda idiotic to me why people would question wearing a mask in a crowd at a hockey game. 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/actor-wi … ll-a-thing

It's not like he was wearing it outdoors.  Some people don't care if they don't get sick but some people do.  If you do, then the time to still mask is in a large crowd.

I've heard of people getting sick after attending sporting events.  I don't know really to what degree sporting events are places where transmission would be high because arenas/domes have huge ceilings and stadiums are open air.  They are not small enclosed spaces.  But if you are sitting next to the wrong person for 2 hours, well that might be an issue.

Anyway, it's weird that will wheaton had to explain himself but I do give him credit for the grace at which he answered this when the conversation shouldn't still be having to be had.  And that's not to say one shouldn't respect those who do the opposite. Live and let live, make choices right for you.  Anyway, I admire the way Wheaton handled this.  He's a good guy.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Bit late, but PRODIGY has been picked up by Netflix which will stream the first season and then, in 2024, the second season.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv … 235615236/

613 (edited by RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan 2023-11-17 08:39:58)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

ireactions wrote:

Bit late, but PRODIGY has been picked up by Netflix which will stream the first season and then, in 2024, the second season.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv … 235615236/

I didn't watch the show but this is great to see. 

Paramount Plus just wasn't going to succeed as a platform for kids. 

netflix must be to tv for the younger generation as what kleenex is to us for tissues.

Paramount Plus just didn't register nor count to them.  And the costs to make it so are just too great.

It's good to see that a viable show didn't die just because the platform wasn't right for it.  It's a similar idea with Girls5Eva moving from peacock to netflix.  New half hour comedies really weren't working well enough on peacock.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

RussianCabbie_Lotteryfan wrote:

It's kinda idiotic to me why people would question wearing a mask in a crowd at a hockey game. 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/actor-wi … ll-a-thing

It's not like he was wearing it outdoors.  Some people don't care if they don't get sick but some people do.  If you do, then the time to still mask is in a large crowd.

I've heard of people getting sick after attending sporting events.  I don't know really to what degree sporting events are places where transmission would be high because arenas/domes have huge ceilings and stadiums are open air.  They are not small enclosed spaces.  But if you are sitting next to the wrong person for 2 hours, well that might be an issue.

Anyway, it's weird that will wheaton had to explain himself but I do give him credit for the grace at which he answered this when the conversation shouldn't still be having to be had.  And that's not to say one shouldn't respect those who do the opposite. Live and let live, make choices right for you.  Anyway, I admire the way Wheaton handled this.  He's a good guy.

COVID baloney.  It's just simply Wil Wheaton.  Forever, he was one of the biggest grouches at conventions, and had a 100% NO TOUCHING policy.  He's parlayed his warped hatred towards his immediate family into his shtick.  I could 1000% imagine Wil Wheaton not only doing the (now completely overdone) virtue signaled masking, but then never missing an opportunity to be Mr. Outrage and furthering his own cause, "grace" or otherwise.  Honestly, I had to begrudgingly force myself through the Trek post-show's that he's hosted, as I'm sure most of his old co-stars have as well, with him there.  He's not exactly part of that "family."

ireactions wrote:

Bit late, but PRODIGY has been picked up by Netflix which will stream the first season and then, in 2024, the second season.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv … 235615236/

Mehhh

615 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2023-11-17 13:16:09)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Again, my recommendation to any Trek fan is to give Prodigy a chance.  I had no interest, but I heard it was good and gave it a shot.  It's definitely the most kiddie Trek, but it's not a baby show.  It's not edu-tainment.  The characters are somewhat young, but there's a decent amount of adult material.  If you like Voyager, it's a direct sequel to Voyager in a lot of ways.

If it's not for you, that's fine.  If you watch it and don't like it, that's fine.  But if you're open to it, give it a shot.  It can only help the Trek brand

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I responded to the mask comments in the political thread:
https://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php … 908#p14908

Grizzlor wrote:

... Wil Wheaton.  Forever, he was one of the biggest grouches at conventions, and had a 100% NO TOUCHING policy.  He's parlayed his warped hatred towards his immediate family into his shtick... Honestly, I had to begrudgingly force myself through the Trek post-show's that he's hosted, as I'm sure most of his old co-stars have as well, with him there.  He's not exactly part of that "family."

I don't doubt that Wheaton has done something to enrage you at least once in person. And it's perfectly fine to find Wheaton's screen presence and persona irksome. However:

I don't think you can project your own distaste for Wheaton onto his castmates unless you actually have some quotes or social media posts or anything beyond you assuming your dislike of Wheaton is universal to all.

Wil Wheaton -- or anyone, for that matter -- has the right to say he doesn't want strangers touching him.

Wheaton has made accusations towards his mother and father of abuse and labour exploitation: that they forced him to act, took all of his earnings and co-opted all of his residuals. Given that Wheaton was selling Wesley action figures to avoid foreclosure despite STAR TREK residuals likely to have paid him six figures annually, well after the show was cancelled, just on the seasons he worked the show, this is clearly true. I have a summary of Wheaton's claims here:
https://sliders.tv/bboard/viewtopic.php … 149#p13149

Wheaton's claims are not only extremely serious, they are extremely common: child actors are frequently used as the family living by parents or managers or accountants who use the children, steal their earnings, and gaslight the kids into thinking that it's correct and appropriate. Other survivors of such exploitation of child labour include Danielle Harris, Natanya Ross, Macaulay Culkin, Jennette McCurdy, Shirley Temple, Ariel Winter and plenty of names big and small, some of whom have signed autographs and taken pictures for you.

Wil Wheaton has every right to use his minor celebrity platform to share his trauma and grief with his fans.

Wil Wheaton may have blown his nose into your Jerry O'Connell photos and burned your Kari Wuhrer pictures and stolen your dog and drank your last ginger ale and snapped John Rhys-Davies' walking stick and stolen Sabrina Lloyd's paintbrushes and told Cleavant Derricks that he can't sing. That could all be true and Wheaton would still be a victim of exploitation from his parents.

The denial that his mother issued to the press was nonsensical, claiming that she and Wheaton had always been close (which is obviously not true since he's accusing her of stealing all of his residuals).

Wheaton may be a jerk. I've never met him, Grizzlor clearly has.

But even if Grizzlor is right, Wheaton would still be a jerk who was squeezed and robbed by his mother and father, who has the right to not be touched, who has the right to tell his story. And Grizzlor would still have every right to dislike him.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Grizzlor wrote on STAR TREK: PRODIGY:
Mehhh

It's odd that you have such disdain for projects that you, by your own admission, haven't watched.

I myself was not keen on watching PRODIGY because... I didn't want to watch it if it were going to get cut off in mid-storyline by Paramount Plus writing it off. I'll watch it now that Netflix will stream it.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

ireactions wrote:

Seth MacFarlane has promised fans that if there's a fourth season of THE ORVILLE, he will find a way to produce and write it alongside any other commitments he has.

Most of the actors have said that they'll do their best to return, but they can't promise that because they have to take other work to earn a living and could conceivably be engaged elsewhere if Season 4 is ordered. It's possible that MacFarlane might produce and write a fourth season, but be in it less, and a crew composed of available cast members and newcomers might board the bridge.

So apparently Adrianne Palicki was on Michael Rosenbaum's podcast "Inside of You" and essentially said the Orville was done.  She said she hasn't really heard anything official on it, but that it was really hard to work on because there was so much time between seasons.  They only did 36 episodes, but it's been 6 years.  So the pay ended up being really low for the amount of time that they were doing the show.  Sounds like that frustrated a lot of the actors.

I don't really understand how any of that works, and I'll admit I'm one of those simpletons that assumes that anyone that works on a network TV show is a multimillionaire.  I know that's not the case, and I can see why it would be difficult to be stuck to a show that seems to be moving so slowly.

I still think the show is really great, vastly underrated, and I hope it can come back and take care of the actors on the show.  Ms. Palicki didn't seem to think that was realistic, though.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

THE ORVILLE situation for actors is financially untenable. They were getting what looks like three years of moderate TV pay for six years of work. I think that is probably holding up a renewal as well: THE ORVILLE would not be workable on its original Season 1- 3 budget because the studio would need to pay the actors for 12 - 18 months -- probably the equivalent of 20 episodes -- in order to make six episodes of TV. Even with the pandemic delay, the fact that Season 3 took three years to produce 10 episodes is (probably) due to Seth MacFarlane writing all the scripts.

So what could be done? Well, either they could pay the actors their holding fees, or they could negotiate that Season 4 is 7 - 10 episodes and all scenes with actors must be filmed within a six month schedule even if post production takes longer; this enables the actors to take on other jobs to earn a living.

In addition, I think Seth MacFarlane would need to hire a writing staff and do outlines for other screenwriters to produce teleplays which MacFarlane would then revise. Given MacFarlane's workload on other projects, I don't think he would have much choice but to do this anyway to produce another season of THE ORVILLE.

I really enjoyed Season 3 of THE ORVILLE, but subtracting the pandemic year, did those 10 episodes really reflect the need to spend two years filming those 10 episodes?

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

There was a writing team, including Brannon Braga & Andre Bormanis, but Seth handled the majority.  The reason for the impasse prior to season 3 was that Seth did not want to continue filming the series in his role.  He offered to write it, but FOX declined, so it was shelved for awhile, before production was again halted from COVID halfway through S3.  They released it on Hulu rather than the network, following the Disney acquisition.  Seth is onto other things, but this is what he does, start and stop, shuffles to another property, etc.

I can commiserate with the actors on that show.  I do not expect it to return, and if it, does probably would be something very very limited.  Maybe a movie.  The show was not a ratings hit, and frankly the third season was a bit of a slog compared to the exciting S2.  Not to mention how I didn't understand why Halston Sage was replaced.  I'd welcome its return, but doesn't sound likely.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

ireactions wrote:

In addition, I think Seth MacFarlane would need to hire a writing staff and do outlines for other screenwriters to produce teleplays which MacFarlane would then revise.

Grizzlor wrote:

There was a writing team, including Brannon Braga & Andre Bormanis

This is correct. I mistakenly repeated Adrianne Palicki referring to "Seth" taking a long time to write Season 3 as a fact when it was in fact a generalization. The Season 3 writing staff featured David A. Goodman, Brannon Braga, Andre Bormanis, Cherry Chevapravatdumrong and MacFarlane. Furthermore, it looks like writing on Season 3 began in May 2019. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GusqtdZOGE

In August 2019, four months later, they'd finished... five scripts. Most writing teams for streaming shows would have written 8 - 10 scripts in that same amount of time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyqstSk … e=youtu.be

Of the 10 episodes, MacFarlane has sole credit for four; Goodman wrote one, Chevapravatdumrong wrote one, and Braga and Bormanis wrote four. MacFarlane also wrote "Sympathy for the Devil" and then a novelization of the unfilmed script. Effectively, of 11 scripts for Season 3, MacFarlane wrote five, or 45.45 percent.

"Shadow Realms" and "Mortality Paradox" strike me as the most unlike MacFarlane. "Shadow Realms" (Braga and Bormanis) is a stock VOYAGER plot of DNA mutating people into monsters and very much of the Brannon Braga handbook. "Mortality Paradox" (Chevapravatdumrong) is a lot of high dollar set pieces and not much sense. David A. Goodman's "From Unknown Graves" has the twisted perspective that I'd expect from him after his FUTURAMA work.

Meanwhile, "Gently Falling Rain", "Midnight Blue" and "Domino" from Braga and Bormanis don't resemble Braga's work and I would hazard a highly uninformed guess that MacFarlane rewrote most of the scenes. It would seem to me, although I could be wrong, that MacFarlane was writing five scripts and rewriting every scene of at least three. That strikes me as way too much for the showrunner if he's also the lead actor.

A lot of this seems to be MacFarlane insisting on having all scripts ready before filming so that he didn't have to do any on-set rewriting alongside acting.

Then there's the production schedule: six to seven weeks to film each episode -- and that was before pandemic restrictions slowed things down. Again, while I really enjoyed Season 3, I'm not sure this show needed seven weeks per episode. I'm not sure what that was about. https://youtu.be/qlqpogkCp3I?si=FkTUetUoNg5w0bjN

I recognize that THE ORVILLE is more effects-heavy than a cop show episode filmed in a week, but is THE ORVILLE really six to seven times more complicated than a cop show? 

I'm not sure what the reason is for why filming would have taken a year and a half for 11 episodes even without COVID. It's something I should ask about when I find some time for it.

I think if there is to be a Season 4, it might be necessary for MacFarlane to delegate his showrunner duties to a trusted subordinate who can match MacFarlane's style and sensibilities, who can shepherd scripts to completion that MacFarlane can easily do a quick polish on, whom MacFarlane can trust to be the on-set writer to do revisions during filming... and THE ORVILLE's episodes need to be filmed in 2 - 3 weeks per episode at most.

I'm not sure if the results would be the same as Seasons 1 - 3, but the way in which Seasons 1 - 3 were made seems unsustainable.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

SIX to SEVEN weeks to SHOOT an episode?!?!?!?  Is that true?  Seth's vaunted Star Trek TNG episodes were given barely TWO weeks to film, often less!  That's outright lunacy.  Also, effects mean nothing as most are done in post via CGI.  The show has limited location filming, it's 90% on the ship set.  I could see it taking seven weeks from first shot to post being completed, but not filming, that is horrendous. 

In fairness, like I said, Seth asked to be allowed just to write the show, and be replaced on screen, the studio refused.  I do not expect to see the series return.  At this point, with whatever Discovery plans to spew onto peoples' wi-fi, this seems to leave SNW as the lone "outer space" TV series?

623 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2023-12-06 09:32:30)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Discovery ends in 2024.  Strange New Worlds is working on Season 3.  There's whatever Section 31 project they're working on.

I think that's it as far as live action goes?  Lower Decks will be back, and Prodigy is getting their shot on Netflix.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I think Sec 31 is just a movie to stream on P+.  I'm shocked that Yeoh agreed to go forward at all, after the Oscar win.  I suppose Picard could return as a movie as well, and Matalas has been pushing for a "Legacy" show, which I would love to see, but who knows?  Paramount is heavily in flux.  They're essentially shutting down Showtime, and there's been talk of them selling pieces.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Grizzlor wrote:

SIX to SEVEN weeks to SHOOT an episode?!?!?!?  Is that true?

Hmmm. Looking at it more closely: THE ORVILLE was filming from October 21, 2019 to March 13, 2020. Over the course of 144 days, they completed filming for five episodes (but not editing or effects). This translates to about four weeks (28.8 days) to film one episode.

Grizzlor wrote:

Seth's vaunted Star Trek TNG episodes were given barely TWO weeks to film, often less!  That's outright lunacy.  Also, effects mean nothing as most are done in post via CGI.  The show has limited location filming, it's 90% on the ship set.  I could see it taking seven weeks from first shot to post being completed, but not filming, that is horrendous.

   
I overshot when I said six to seven weeks (that was Tom Costantino's estimate, but it must have included editing). Still, a month to shoot one episode of a set-bound show even before pandemic protocols is bizarre.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I have no explanation for that, a month is totally ridiculous.  The other possibility which the actors kind of alluded to, is that they might have been filming the episodes at normal pace, but there were gaps in between.  Perhaps Seth was re-writing taking his sweet old time?  I doubt they were paid a ton to begin with, outside of MacFarlane, so for their sakes maybe the show ought to stay "grounded," which I expect to happen anyway.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

regarding the Orville
https://screenrant.com/the-orville-seas … acfarlane/

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I know Palicki spoke negatively about her experience, but I assume if they pay her properly for her time (including any time she's not working), I assume she would come back.  She hasn't really worked much since the Orville ended (which may be her choice), but even if it was some sort of smaller role, I don't think she'd just not come back.  At least, that's not what I got from her interview with Michael Rosenbaum.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I know Palicki spoke negatively about her experience, but I assume if they pay her properly for her time (including any time she's not working), I assume she would come back.  She hasn't really worked much since the Orville ended (which may be her choice), but even if it was some sort of smaller role, I don't think she'd just not come back.  At least, that's not what I got from her interview with Michael Rosenbaum.

I think that was the issue for her.  The contracts I guess put a hold on the actors to ensure their availability, which basically means the actors can't work other gigs because the schedules may conflict then once the orville needs them.  To go into production, it's a lot of moving parts (and uncertain shooting schedules) and the contracts want to ensure availability from the actors.

I am not sure though if I misinterpreted your post.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

No, you didn't misinterpret.  I'm just saying that I assume she'd come back if the contract makes it worth her time.  I hope she comes back - she's a good character and fairly vital to Ed's story.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

No, you didn't misinterpret.  I'm just saying that I assume she'd come back if the contract makes it worth her time.  I hope she comes back - she's a good character and fairly vital to Ed's story.

Oh I see, sorry.

So the actors are no longer contract I guess?   Well, that would make sense.

I hope the show continues. I know its not a massive hit but there's nothing else quite like it on tv.

I saw this having not watched a lot of the latest episodes and with a lot of catching up to do, so I guess I'm talking out  of both sides of my mouth.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Well, I guess I don't know.  The way Palicki talked, it didn't seem like she was under contract anymore or thought the show would continue.  The article implied she wouldn't be back, but I don't know if that's necessarily true.  I'm sure she's upset, but work is work.  And as long as they don't make her sign something that holds her hostage, I think she'd be willing to come back.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

https://trekmovie.com/2024/01/24/michel … s-want-it/

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

Well, I guess I don't know.  The way Palicki talked, it didn't seem like she was under contract anymore or thought the show would continue.  The article implied she wouldn't be back, but I don't know if that's necessarily true.  I'm sure she's upset, but work is work.  And as long as they don't make her sign something that holds her hostage, I think she'd be willing to come back.

I think that clickbait article writer just saw an excerpt of Adrienne Palicki's podcast appearance on Inside of You and assumed Palicki was saying she was done with the show as opposed to merely being done with Season 3 as contracted. At the end of the day, Palicki wants to work for a living wage and if a fourth season of ORVILLE pays her for her work and for her availability (as opposed to merely her work), she'll probably sign on.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

You could argue that she's the biggest star on the show.  Budget might restrict their abilities to fully take care of every one of her demands, but I'm sure they understand that.  The Orville is an ensemble cast and could survive it even if she didn't want to come back (for whatever they're able to pay her or however they want to work), but I think her presence would be missed, maybe more than anyone but Ed.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Terry Matalas has been hired to work on a Vision show for Marvel.

I guess we aren't getting Star Trek: Legacy

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I don't think it's happening soon.

It seems like Paramount Global is having financial issues.
https://trekmovie.com/2024/04/02/alex-k … his-hands/

Matalas won't be on VISION forever.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Yeah I'm not saying that it won't happen ever, but it doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.  They've already greenlit some other things (including another reboot film?) and they're moving ahead with the Starfleet Academy show.  So my guess is Picard Season 3 either didn't perform or they didn't like working with Matalas?  Because I think if Picard worked well (or if they liked Matalas), they'd do Legacy before they did Starfleet Academy.

But maybe they'd committed to Academy and that's all they can afford to do.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I actually really enjoyed the final season of Discovery.  I wish there was more mission of the week stuff, but I thought the season was engaging and fun.  I maintain that the future setting is a much better playground for these characters, and I thought the show ended up being a lot of fun.

The finale, released today, has a lot of fun character moments and a couple fun little reveals.  After not loving the start of it, I think it's a nice inclusion in the canon.  It just needed to find its true home.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I actually really enjoyed the final season of Discovery.  I wish there was more mission of the week stuff, but I thought the season was engaging and fun.  I maintain that the future setting is a much better playground for these characters, and I thought the show ended up being a lot of fun.

The finale, released today, has a lot of fun character moments and a couple fun little reveals.  After not loving the start of it, I think it's a nice inclusion in the canon.  It just needed to find its true home.

So did I, who doesn't like a treasure hunt?  I thought that allowed them to get away from the writer's block of the fourth season.  I am not sure another season made sense, because it would have likely gone back to the soap opera style of character interaction which fans I think got tired with.  Burnam and maybe Saru I felt are characters I'd want to see again, but not the others.  I never had a problem with the series outside of the absurdity they made of the Klingons.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I know it's mainly for kids, but Prodigy is a really fun show.  Season 2 is on Netflix and has a few cool TNG era returns.  Like Clone Wars or Rebels to Star Wars, it's a heartfelt and worthy entry into the Star Trek canon.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I thought this trailer had a really weird tone and, honestly, doesn't look very good.  I really like the idea of Section 31, but I think the current leadership at Trek doesn't know what to do with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfXhCp2UVY

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

A one-off movie, of a character honestly nobody cares about, ehhhh.  Michelle Leoh is amazing in anything though.

The new Trek live action comedy sounds very cool.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Grizzlor wrote:

A one-off movie, of a character honestly nobody cares about, ehhhh.  Michelle Leoh is amazing in anything though.

Yeah I think she could make it work, but I had trouble even understanding the tone they were going for in the trailer.  What is it supposed to be?

Also, I can't remember how her arc ended on Discovery.  I know they visited the Guardian, but did she go back to her universe?  Did she go back in time?  Is she still in the future?  I honestly can't remember

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:
Grizzlor wrote:

A one-off movie, of a character honestly nobody cares about, ehhhh.  Michelle Leoh is amazing in anything though.

Yeah I think she could make it work, but I had trouble even understanding the tone they were going for in the trailer.  What is it supposed to be?

Also, I can't remember how her arc ended on Discovery.  I know they visited the Guardian, but did she go back to her universe?  Did she go back in time?  Is she still in the future?  I honestly can't remember

The Guardian or whatever agreed to deposit Georgiou in a place/time "where she would be safe."  Given that a "younger" Rachel Garrett (Enterprise C captain in 2344) is part of the main cast, I would gather the time period is 30-40 years before ST:TNG.  While I doubt it, they could have actually brought on Walter Koenig or George Takei to cameo as their original characters, given they would both be in their 80's by this point.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

The SECTION 31 trailer is strange, albeit no stranger than how DISCOVERY used Section 31. Section 31, as defined on DEEP SPACE NINE, is an off-the-books, black-ops division with no official existence, acknowledged by no Starfleet or Federation official, dedicated to covertly assassinating, exterminating and erasing any and all threats to the United Federation of Planets. They answer to no one but themselves and have engaged in genocidal biological warfare, framed innocent Federation allies as assassins in order to control enemy governments, and committed any number of war crimes and worse, all in the name of doing what Starfleet can't and won't do, all of which the cast of DEEP SPACE NINE found horrific and unconscionable.

DISCOVERY, however, presents Section 31 as the spy branch of Starfleet. It's ridiculous. And this SECTION 31 movie trailer presents scenes of Mirror Georgiou's history as empress of the Terran Empire, shows her decadent and superior -- and while that might be an interesting Mirror Georgiou story, none of that has anything to do with Section 31, so it makes little sense this movie is being marketed as SECTION 31 or why they even used Section 31 in the first place on DISCOVERY when that isn't Section 31 and might as well just be Starfleet Intelligence.

As I said before: while DISCOVERY Season 2 showrunner Akiva Goldsman has done some terrific work, he has a tendency to shore up bland organizations or bland villains by giving them names that are prominent in STAR TREK history, but then those names are diluted and lose meaning. Section 31, once an amoral agency of no official existence, has just become the Starfleet spy branch. The Gorn, once one of the most unique creations of the original series, are now generic space monsters.

If this SECTION 31 movie isn't about Section (and the trailer indicates it's about Mirror Georgiou), maybe they could just title it accordingly. That said, a trailer is not a film and all this could be wrong.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I know it's mainly for kids, but Prodigy is a really fun show.  Season 2 is on Netflix and has a few cool TNG era returns.  Like Clone Wars or Rebels to Star Wars, it's a heartfelt and worthy entry into the Star Trek canon.

I meant to watch this because you would not shut up about it (haha), but PRODIGY persisted in not showing up on Netflix. It dawned on me last night that you are an American and I am a Canadian and I enabled my VPN for the States so I could watch PRODIGY. I just watched the first two episodes and... wow. Wow.

I am deeply irked that Paramount + decided to dispose of PRODIGY as a tax writeoff instead of making this spectacular series the crown jewel of their streaming service. PRODIGY is possibly the most enjoyable and entertaining and positive and joyful productions of STAR TREK ever made.

I have come to the conclusion that anyone who disdains PRODIGY is in fact disdaining life itself and really needs to look to God, psychotherapy, or eating more leafy greens.

It is a masterful textbook of how to make STAR TREK for the whole family and not just for the science fiction enthusiast. The way in which PRODIGY distills STAR TREK for a children's audience somehow has the effect of making it more complex and meaningful than DISCOVERY's jingoistic Federation flag waving or PICARD's angst over Starfleet. This is one of those rare instances where a creative team's efforts at simplifying STAR TREK has somehow made it even more multifaceted.

I'll write more about it soon, but wow. PRODIGY is stunning and visually enrapturing. The colourful splendor of the series and the way it renders space is visual poetry. As long as Slider_Quinn21's recommendations don't involve serial killers and sociopaths, I will eagerly watch them as soon as I can get my VPN working.

648 (edited by Slider_Quinn21 2024-08-04 18:18:17)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Ha I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I'll take it smile

One of my coworkers who is a huge Trek guy said he thinks Prodigy is the best of the new Trek.  I think it has the most heart of any of the new Trek shows, and it uses classic Trek stories to tell stories of the week while also doing an overarching story.  It has the same love for Trek that Lower Decks does but does it earnestly instead of with humor (I love them both).  I'd forgotten how much I liked it when I saw season 2 was finally available.

*********

I need detective ireactions to let me know if the news I saw this weekend about The Orville season 4 starting production is true or not.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

PRODIGY is really good. I don't understand how Paramount + could undervalue this show.

**

THE ORVILLE is indeed going to start production -- but not filming -- of Season 4 in January 2025:
https://bleedingcool.com/tv/the-orville … l-podcast/

But who will actually be in it? Who will write, direct and produce it?

At this point, the January start is merely to assemble crew, start on writing, finalize cast contracts, devise shooting schedules -- and given that Seth MacFarlane is working on another show, it's impossible to say when scripts will be ready and filming will begin. However, there will be a fourth season and Seth MacFarlane will be in at least a few episodes while overseeing all of them.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Paramount is not valuing/undervaluing anything.  It's a corporation which has been in severe financial flux for several years, similar to Warner Bros.  Anything not critical to its core has been excised for financial reasons.  That's a big reason Discovery, Prodigy, and Lower Decks were all "ended" early.  Like so many DC properties, which were dumped without regard when Zazlav shopped and later merged WB with Discovery.  Paramount remains for sale, repeated sales have been short-circuited, the studio is a mess.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Yes, we should all value a certain someone's valuation of PRODIGY after their incisive, analytical opinions on it so far.

Grizzlor wrote:

I cannot bring myself to watch Lower Decks or Prodigy whenever that comes out.  To me Trek is not slapstick comedy or children's toons.  ST:TAS was I felt mature (for the 70's) and serious.  In fact, I wish someone would reanimate that show using the original audio.

Grizzlor wrote:

I have zero interest in Prodigy

Grizzlor wrote:

Prodigy I'm not bothering with.

Grizzlor wrote:

Prodigy. Mehhh

And we should all trust an assessment of PRODIGY's brand and marketing potential when it comes from someone who has a laughably obvious prejudice and bias towards it without ever bothering to watch it.

Also, do you have an explanation for your bizarre response on August 13, 2023?

You wrote about the SNW musical:

Grizzlor wrote:

I guess for a musical episode, it was fine, but just not necessary.

I responded:

ireactions wrote:

It was absolutely necessary for the storyline with Spock and Christine.

The musical episode features the Spock/Christine breakup and it happens in a shockingly humiliating and horrific manner for Spock, making a public spectacle of how she is leaving him and leaving Enterprise and didn't even tell him that she was departing until nearly everyone else knew -- except it's not totally Christine's fault.

Christine applied for a fellowship and got in, but held off on telling Spock, wanting to break up with him privately and personally, only to be unexpectedly feted in the crew lounge by friends who were present when she first received the news. She isn't happy about the celebration because there's currently a crisis and she hasn't had a chance to speak with Spock.

Spock sees her and asks why she didn't tell him that she is ending her time on Enterprise and their relationship as well. Christine asks to speak privately, but Spock, needing to trigger a song for more data to resolve the musical security crisis, elects to ask Christine to explain herself in the lounge with a large number of crew present to witness it.

Christine proceeds to belt out a lengthy song with dance accompaniment about how the fellowship is freedom and ambition, and the song indicates that Spock doesn't even factor into Christine's considerations except an afterthought comment about how she wouldn't hesitate to ditch him for a great job. It's not that she contemplated what it would mean to leave him, she flat-out didn't spare him a moment of thought.

Spock been humiliated in front of his shipmates, treated as a joke and an irrelevance in the most insulting fashion possible. He has sacrificed his own dignity and self-esteem to save everyone else's. I've followed Spock's career across TV, movies, novels and comics and I think this is one of the most heroic things Spock ever did. Yes, he died saving the crew in WRATH OF KHAN, but in "Subspace Rhapsody", he has to watch Christine crush every hope he ever had for their romantic relationship in public in a mortifyingly embarrassing display for all to see, and continue face his crewmates after that.

Christine is dismissive and hurtful towards Spock. It's only understandable because the music is making Christine say private things in public, and also because in "Those Old Scientists", where she found out from Boimler that the future Spock will close off his human side, confirming that Christine and Spock's romance has no future.

It's understandable that after that, Christine realized she couldn't let her not-to-last relationship with Spock be a factor in her career decisions. At the same time, due to Christine's withdrawal and silence, and due to Spock refusing to go somewhere private to discuss it (for scientific reasons), Spock is humiliated in full view of the crew happily celebrating how Christine is dumping Spock.

It is a grotesque scene. And without the musical situation where Christine is genuinely not able to moderate and control her emotional expressions and Spock is deliberately triggering them to restore everyone else's privacy, Christine would be a complete monster to behave this way. The musical plot device was essential for making sure there was some outside force to justify otherwise unforgivable behaviour.

It's also quite a moment that really demonstrates why Spock is such an icon and a beloved figure of STAR TREK. He will give up his own dignity to save ours. Spock truly is our friend.

You responded with a truly peculiar remark:

Grizzlor wrote:

Your entire missive on Chapel/Spock was SPOILER rendered moot as a result of the season finale.  LOL

Except the season finale... didn't change Chapel and Spock's breakup and merely had a tender moment of rescue for them before Chapel left for her new job with Dr. Roger Korby to whom she is engaged to be married by the time of THE ORIGINAL SERIES (and Korby has been cast for Season 3 of SNW). And Spock was still publicly humiliated before his shipmates. Which means the missive on Chapel/Spock was not rendered moot at all.

So what exactly were you trying to say a year ago? Was there any information or reasoning behind your response? Or was it just derision and scorn for the sake of it?

(I would like to wager $5 USD that any response will include at least one all caps passage, enraged ranting, and something or other about Wil Wheaton. Although to whom I'd pay the $5, I'm not sure... )

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Why do you keep repeating these quotes?  I've already reversed course on Lower Decks.  You asked why they didn't support Prodigy, I gave the reason.  Network decisions are still made based on finances and whether certain executives like/hate/yawn at them.  I didn't mention marketing potential because it's irrelevant.  Studio politics decide this stuff, and somebody or somebody's at Paramount didn't want those particular Trek shows anymore.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I'm not sure why Paramount insists on the streaming-only model for Trek.  I feel like Strange New Worlds would be pretty successful on CBS.  I think Lower Decks could've worked on MTV or Comedy Central.  Prodigy would've obviously worked on Nickelodeon.  Still stream them on Paramount Plus (that's still where I'd watch it) but have your cake and eat it too.

And I'm glad ireactions is liking Prodigy.  I'm also glad we'll get some form of the Orville season 4.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Slider_Quinn21 wrote:

I'm not sure why Paramount insists on the streaming-only model for Trek.  I feel like Strange New Worlds would be pretty successful on CBS.  I think Lower Decks could've worked on MTV or Comedy Central.  Prodigy would've obviously worked on Nickelodeon.  Still stream them on Paramount Plus (that's still where I'd watch it) but have your cake and eat it too.

And I'm glad ireactions is liking Prodigy.  I'm also glad we'll get some form of the Orville season 4.

Not just Star Trek.  Most of the many incarnations of Yellowstone remain exclusive to Paramount+, and that is a more successful property right now.  Paramount+ is a money loser.  Let's not forget that they basically mothballed the incredibly successful and critically acclaimed Showtime wing of original programming. 

a) Paramount is a total mess.  They don't know who's going to own the thing, meaning who will call the shots.
b) Whoever has been in control, are going to have their favorites.  The existing Trek shows fell out of favor/vogue with the, so they got the boot.  Has nothing to do with ratings or their marketing approach.  The network/studio has been cutting across the board.  Prodigy in fact was reportedly "written off" the books, similar to how Warner ditched the Batwoman movie.  Season 2 was released on Netflix in part due to this business maneuver (not Paramount+), likely for a small license fee.  Anything is possible, but it's difficult to imagine Paramount resuming a show it used as a tax write off.
c) It's in with the new, which is Starfleet Academy, SNW, and also the Section 31 movie, which a year ago was part of a plan to release Trek movies on P+ every two years.  Is that still in the cards?  Who knows.

655 (edited by ireactions 2024-08-05 11:19:16)

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

Looks to me like Paramount and Skydance are merging.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/08/media/pa … index.html

There were recent reports of a competing bid, but that was a hoax.
https://deadline.com/2024/07/new-paramo … 236027995/

**

I am really sad that PRODIGY is being so undervalued. Setting aside the oh-so-vital valuation of the show made by someone who has never seriously looked at PRODIGY as a brand and as a show: PRODIGY should have been the crown jewel of modern STAR TREK in the way the 2009 STAR TREK movie was made front and center of the franchise for a time. PRODIGY has something that most STAR TREK shows don't have: mainstream appeal to a general audience.

DISCOVERY was a somewhat confused attempt at modernizing STAR TREK in a prequel setting, muddled due to Bryan Fuller creating and then leaving it. PICARD has a niche audience of TNG fans; STRANGE NEW WORLDS has a niche audience of TOS fans; LOWER DECKS has a niche audience of continuity mavens amused by poking fun at the absurdities of the franchise.

In contrast, the 2009 movie, while not filled with philosophical richness, was a family movie: it was a comedic, action-packed adventure that people of all ages could enjoy and it pitched itself as an entry-level, accessible story.

PRODIGY aims to be similar to the 2009 movie... but it does an even better job. PRODIGY captures not only the adventurous spirit of STAR TREK with the same excitement of the 2009 film, but also the spirit of STAR TREK: teamwork, problem solving, diversity, differences in thinking combined to save the day, strategic cleverness, and the willingness to throw down as a last resort.

PRODIGY makes an interesting decision: its cast are all teenaged slaves in a prison planet who have never heard of the Federation, who have no idea what Starfleet is, who stumble into an abandoned Starfleet starship with an experimental power source, who use the ship to escape their captivity -- and then these troubled, traumatized children who are focused on basic self-preservation who have never known kindness or any real support are mistaken for Starfleet cadets by the ship's computer.

A holographic Captain Kathryn Janeway, representing the computer, takes on the role of guide and teacher, and expects them to live up to values and ideals that the kids find completely antithetical to how the world has treated them to date. PRODIGY presents its cast as defiant and dismissive of Starfleet values... only to inadvertently fall into them when desperation and danger forces them to work together to protect the ship and survive.

PRODIGY's distillation of the STAR TREK concept is brilliant on every level. It creates a cast of characters who aren't familiar with the Federation and Starfleet, so the show is accessible to viewers who aren't familiar with STAR TREK because the cast is learning as well; meanwhile, longtime fans see the tenets and pillars of STAR TREK re-evaluated and rediscovered through new eyes.

In addition, the characters being a ragtag group of escapees from a prison where they were kidnapped and held positions them outside TREK's usual institutions. These kids have only known the worst of the universe, and their suspicion and questioning of TREK's utopian ideals adds a sincere and critical edge to how PRODIGY approaches STAR TREK, instead of taking it for granted that the Federation and Starfleet are always good and perfect.

The visual and narrative pacing of PRODIGY is incredible. The CG animation and character designs all create a sense of hyperkinetic motion as the USS Protostar zips through space and the characters race across planets and hallways. There is an immediacy, a visceral intensity to PRODIGY's visual direction that even modern STAR TREK shows struggle to capture. Space looks vast, colourful, vibrant and wonderful.

Overall, PRODIGY is a show that should really have a much wider audience than being marketed as a children's series. It's very clear to me that Paramount Studios, Paramount+ and Nickelodeon did not market PRODIGY correctly. It has the content and appeal to be sold as effectively as STAR TREK (2009). Unfortunately, the PRODIGY brand has been marketed as a children's show with limited appeal outside a young age group. But the actual PRODIGY show has a wide, mainstream appeal and has been well-calibrated and calculated for audiences both in and out of STAR TREK fandom.

I'll look into why PRODIGY was mismarketed and try to understand how this happened, but based on content alone: PRODIGY could and should have been the flagship STAR TREK show because it is entertaining to both devoted STAR TREK fans and casual fans of science fiction television. Instead, it was shuttered off Paramount+ for a tax writeoff and sold/dumped onto Netflix. It's deeply unfortunate.

When I watch PRODIGY, it looks like the future. When I look at search engine results for PRODIGY, it looks like an abandoned dead end. That's the distinction between the show that was made by the creators and the brand identity that was made by the marketing department.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

ireactions wrote:

Overall, PRODIGY is a show that should really have a much wider audience than being marketed as a children's series. It's very clear to me that Paramount Studios, Paramount+ and Nickelodeon did not market PRODIGY correctly. It has the content and appeal to be sold as effectively as STAR TREK (2009). Unfortunately, the PRODIGY brand has been marketed as a children's show with limited appeal outside a young age group. But the actual PRODIGY show has a wide, mainstream appeal and has been well-calibrated and calculated for audiences both in and out of STAR TREK fandom.

Yeah, I agree.  I wrote off Prodigy as a kids show like Paw Patrol but just Star Trek.  But when I needed something to watch and I had time for it, I thought it was fun and engaging.  And there are episodes that might be too scary or high-level for kids to enjoy.  I probably should see if any of it actually appeals to my 4-year-old.

I also agree that the gateway to entry isn't very high so it could appeal to new fans.  Picard Season 3 was a love letter to the fans, but I imagine that it was unintelligible to a lot of people who have never seen Star Trek.  I'd never recommend my non-Trek-fan friends watch Picard, but I think they'd watch Prodigy.  It's a cartoon with younger protagonists, sure, but it tells an engaging story.  If you know who Janeway and (spoiler) and (Season 2 spoiler) and even (Season 2 spoiler) are, then you might enjoy the show on another level, but there's enough background that you have an idea of who these people are and how they are represented.

The show also does some heavy lifting to take some established characters and give them more to do than they were able to do on their original appearances.

I'm glad you like it!

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I'm telling ya, Prodigy was a victim of what they call "content impairment charge," and all the studios are doing it.  They write-off the value of the asset, it's a way to clear the balance sheets without paying residuals or incurring taxation.  Frankly it should be outlawed, but they all get away with it.  However, it basically requires you to dump it from your coffers.  Streamers have been doing it wholesale, resulting in tons of properties that vanish from the platforms.  In Prodigy's case, they able to sell S2 off to Netflix, as again, it could not be broadcast on Paramount.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I hope we are all edified and enlightened by this perfunctory non-analysis of the PRODIGY brand that tells us nothing beyond where it supposedly ended up, offers no insight as to how it got there, and is given by someone who has never had anything but derisive disdain for PRODIGY sight unseen.

This person has nothing to say about PRODIGY beyond presumptions, assumptions, and a pathological need to voice their barely-veiled scorn for PRODIGY (which they have never even watched) at every opportunity. They need to reiterate that their scorn is shared by the people who funded it. They haven't watched PRODIGY, but any time it comes up, they really need to remind us that they didn't watch it and have total contempt for it in order to act out their incredibly obvious narcissistic personality disorder.

In reality, a lot happens before a show or a movie is viewed as something on which a streamer or a studio should take a writeoff, and to present PRODIGY's undermarketing as a tax avoidance measure is simplistic, trite, and to repeat this claim demonstrates a painful ignorance of co-production, demographic targeting, brand management, marketing, and distribution -- all of which contributed to PRODIGY's narrow reach, all of which happened before Paramount+ detached themselves from the series.

BATGIRL was written off for a lot of reasons beyond the tax dodge, which included WB realizing that whether or not James Gunn accepted the job of running DC, their original post-FLASH movie plans were not going to happen and BATGIRL was the premiere of a run of films that wouldn't go past BATGIRL.

And the PRODIGY writeoff was the result of circumstances that took place well-before Paramount+ washed their hands of PRODIGY. To claim all explanations are in the writeoff itself is simplistic and myopic. The writeoff itself does not explain what went wrong, it was merely one incident along the way to a Netflix burnoff.

I've been looking into this further and from what I can tell, part of the issue is the partnership between Nickelodeon Animation Studios and CBS boxed in how the show could be marketed. The expectation was that PRODIGY was going to be a niche-within-a-niche show; a show for STAR TREK fans who were extremely young STAR TREK fans.

But the show that ended up being recorded and animated ended up having significantly more mainstream appeal to all ages than was expected of a children's TV series.

The creators had underpromised but overdelivered, producing a show that, due to the quality of their work and the cleverness of their simplification/distillation of STAR TREK, could have as much appeal to a general audience as opposed to only children and STAR TREK fans.

Unfortunately, the show had already been assigned a marketing strategy that was treating PRODIGY like the animated JAMES BOND JR. of the franchise, failing to realize that this supposedly niche-within-a-niche series was actually good enough to sell as the flagship show. This unfortunate positioning made it an easy target for a tax writeoff.

There is more to explore on this and I'm eager to delve into it further, if only to reinforce what Slider_Quinn21 saw: PRODIGY is something special and turned out to be far more than what its investors expected it to be.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

I have no disdain for Prodigy, I just don't care about it.  I know it features some Voyager actors, and has been very well received.  Yet Paramount still wrote it off.  Having listened to countless actor-driven podcasts, they undoubtedly talk about canceled projects, with each other, as well as directors and writers they have on.  There is a theme to it all, which is that network suits make a LOT of decisions against their own interest.  These decisions are often driven by internal politics and not performance, although if they have a way to screw talent out of money, they'll do that too.  Anyone who's followed the plight of Sliders should know well that suits do not view TV properties as artistic endeavors.  Paramount kept Discovery's fifth season on ice for a year and a half, while shadow canceling it along the way.  A lot of Paramount+ content was first in limbo during 2022, and then written off or cut altogether in 2023.  They began dumping assets in 2021, first buildings, then publishing, followed by The CW, and finally the first merger attempt with WarnerBros.  The goal was to lean the thing out prior to a sale.

https://redshirtsalwaysdie.com/2023/12/ … paramount/

Now, if you're still insistent on finding some identifiable reason to cancel the series, the only thing out there is that Playmates' Trek deal dried up, so without the toy tie-in, the series would cost Paramount even more, and they opted out.  Netflix paid something for the second season.  Whether they pay for another is anyone's guess, but CGI-animated TV series cost a lot of money and take a good bit of time to produce.  Even LucasFilm tired of the expenditure and closed their animated shop.  Kate Mulgrew was furious at the cancellation, but she had no explanation.  This has become rampant with streaming.  Series are pulled that make no sense.  Hell, Netflix was famous for it, almost never green lighting a show beyond a 2nd or 3rd season, until recently.  Often the costs were the reason.

Re: Star Trek in Film and TV (and The Orville, too!)

(I have set aside $5 for Greg as I have lost the bet.)

**

Why wasn't STAR TREK: PRODIGY presented as the flagship show it deserved to be? It certainly had the quality and mainstream appeal and entry-level storytelling to work for a general audience instead of only STAR TREK fans and only children. But it somehow became an unwanted artifact that became an easy target for a tax writeoff.

Divisions of Labour
The problem, from what I can tell: PRODIGY was divided between many separate parts of Paramount Global, necessary for a CG animated TV show of this nature: it was produced by Nickelodeon Animation Studio, Brothers Hageman Productions, and CBS Eye Animation Productions, it was streaming on Paramount+ in October 2021 and then airing on Nickelodeon in December 2021.

This combination of money, resources and talent was vital for producing a high quality animated show of this nature. The need to have streaming alongside broadcast was part of situating PRODIGY as a children's show funded in part by a children's programming studio. It's what enabled PRODIGY to look as wonderful as it did.

Divisions of Marketing
But the result is that all profit is therefore split across all these highly involved companies, and there is no single corporate branch with primary control of PRODIGY. And with ownership and leadership split across Paramount+ for streaming, the Nickelodeon channel for broadcasting, Nickelodeon Animation Studio and CBS Eye Animation Productions, the marketing decisions were also split.

There was no corporate structure that would enable Paramount+ to see how great PRODIGY was and present it as their flagship streaming show: it was Nickelodeon's show too, and to be broadcast on their kid's channel while filling out the Paramount+ streaming catalog. Ultimately, the things that made PRODIGY achievable, the teamwork and collaborations that enabled PRODIGY to exist at all and look as great as it does -- they were also the factors that meant Paramount+ was in no position to market it as their flagship STAR TREK show even if the content would have justified it

Divisions of Profit
Due to the involvement of the Paramount+, Nickelodeon channel, Nickelodeon Animation, Brothers Hageman Productions and CBC Eye Animation, profit from PRODIGY would likely be divided among all five as well as with Roddenberry Entertainment.

This is in contrast to DISCOVERY, PICARD or STRANGE NEW WORLDS where the profit division is likely just between Paramount+, CBS Studios and Roddenberry Entertainment. PRODIGY's divided origins, despite being creatively spectacular, also meant divided profit -- and it could be that Paramount+ received a much smaller share of PRODIGY's revenue compared to their other shows.

Divided and Expendable
My hypothesis is: since PRODIGY was the TREK show where Paramount+ had the least control over marketing and distribution, the least ownership of the property and had the least claim to the profits, it was deemed most expendable for a tax writeoff.

Usually, too many cooks leads to a lousy meal. It looks to me like with PRODIGY, all the talents and companies involved produced an amazing show, but it also produced a tangled web of ownership, marketing and profit sharing that ultimately led to PRODIGY being orphaned as no specific branch could fully take the lead in selling the show to a wider audience for mainstream success.

Perhaps under different circumstances, Paramount+ could have seen how PRODIGY was something special and bought a greater level of interest in it to sell it to the world as a flagship show. Unfortunately, with streaming revenue hitting a ceiling, the stars simply weren't aligned for PRODIGY.